Coercive / controlling / abusive behaviour - but without intent?

[Sixeight]

I have had a variety of counselling, from nhs counselling to relate, and now I’m paying for a counsellor plus talking to someone from women’s aid.

My relationship is on the brink of being over - tbh I’m just trying to work out why, and what the bet outcome for the kids is :(

About 50% of counsellors so far have told me I’ve experienced coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in my relationship. The other half of counsellors (mainly nhs and relate) say they want to ‘park’ that side of things till the massive communication issues in the relationship are sorted.

My question is - is there any research or reading out there regarding coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in marriages that is actually unintentional from the ‘perpetrator’s’ perspective?

There isn’t a malicious bone in my husband’s body, yet I do acknowledge that his behaviour was unintentionally coercive, controlling and unhealthy. Which is why our marriage is falling apart.

Someone from women’s aid that I spoke to today said that if this wasn’t intentional, it could be learned behaviour from his upbringing? This does make sense, his mum is a pro at guilt tripping.

I have the opportunity to do a course about unhealthy behaviour within relationships (thinly veiled language for ‘abuse’) which I’d like to do. But I can only do it if my husband - we are hanging on to the relationship by our fingernails - agrees to it as well.

But asking him to do the course sounds, to me, like a death knell for his already fragile mental health. Relate counselling showed that he was totally unaware of the impact his behaviour has had on me - and, to be honest, my behaviour was just as unhealthy as his, as I never called him on it or told him how he made me feel.

Whatever the reason - my question is this. Can you point me to any resources, or reading, that explain this unhealthy relationship behaviour TO the unaware perpetrator, without making them feel like an abuser?

I think that by giving him resources that you’ve found, you automatically put yourself in a superior position in the power dynamic. This is in your language also. Saying that his behaviour is the reason your marriage is falling apart. It’s both of your behaviour.

I was in a relationship with someone who was absolutely intentionally abusive and controlling. And even then, it was both of our behaviour. Her, being abusive. Me, being enabling/codependent.

If you want a healthy relationship with him, it takes both of you putting 100% in. Which means you have to research your own stuff - about your behaviours and flaws, not his. He has to do the same, on his own stuff. Then you come together in the middle. There is absolutely no point in trying to get him to see things a certain way. That in itself is coercive. You can only talk about how you feel, and what you want moving forward.

I think this is a very interesting area and I'll admit, one I've found myself exploring recently. However, I think the key thing is actually YOUR self awareness. By that I mean, ultimately it does not matter whether the abusive behaviour comes from a place of intent or not. Because what matters is that it is harmful to you.

Also it is pointless to seek to make the abuser self aware. If a trained psychiatrist/therapist cannot cure a narcissist, we would be mad to think we could.

Instead we need to focus our energies in protecting ourselves.

Going down the rabbit hole of 'oh but they dont mean to. It's simply reactive' is not healthy.
Especially considering you yourself may gave codependehcy issues already as a result of being around this abuser.

You need to step back. If fir example this person cannot be fully dropped from your life (eg, you share kids) then I totally understand the need to dabble in understanding why. But you need to naje sure it does not become an excuse you make for their behaviour. And if you are falling into thus territory of 'maybe I can educate and fix them' then YOU are in and unhealthy right now. And you need to step back asap and choose to preserve yourself and fix your own codependent tendencies or need to fix others.

*in an unhealthy place

Basically 'unaware perpetrator' or not, they are still an abuser. Dont tiptoe round it. Dont try and fix them. Just get yourself out.

And this course..
Well it's just madness that its highlighted that you need to get his permission to do it!

Do the course without his permission. Dump him first. Theres no excuse for abuse. None. And no, it does not make you just as bad because you dudnt tell him his shitty hurtful behaviour was shitty and hurtful. You should not have to do that. Ever.

@Pinkbonbon we have 2 children, so I feel I have to more than ‘dabble’ in understanding why he behaves as he does. I want to be able to understand it in depth so that, even if we don’t stay together, I can equip my children with the skills to deal with his approach to life.

@Pinkbonbon I don’t need his permission to do the course! But I didn’t realise, when I expressed interest, that it was a course aimed at both individuals in a relationship. I thought it sounded useful for me, that’s all. But they say they generally need to work with both parties.

I absolutely understand why you want to know what makes your childrens father tick.

But not so much if you think staying with him is wise. Because it really isn't. And will unfortunately have a detrimental effect on your children to see their mother look for ways to excuse his behaviour (as opposed to simply understanding) Which is what it is if you are staying with him. I dont mean to criticise of course, I know it's not easy to leave people when feelings are involved. But I hope you come to the same conclusion and find the strength to get yourself out.

There is a course called the freedom programme you could do. Perhaps that is what has been suggested? I think it could he done online if that makes it easier for you to do things without him having to know.

You should be able to make these choices without his permission.

Stay safe x

@Pinkbonbon thank you.The freedom programme has been mentioned but, reading the online literature, it is for much more extreme behaviour than I’ve been experiencing.

I totally agree - if it weren’t for the children I’d likely be long gone. And part of my realisation that I was in an unhealthy relationship was the fact that my daughter was starting to be more aware and complicit in my behaviours - which obviously is the last thing I want. But, I am staying partly because a little bit of me wants to find what we once had, again. But more importantly, I need to understand his viewpoint because if we do separate, my daughter will undoubtedly take on my mediator role in the family.

I need to understand my husband’s perspective in order to stop this happening,

But op you can never understand an abusers perspective. Because you are nothing like him. All you need to understand is that his behaviour is unhealthy and harmful.

It would be better for your kids yo have a safe and healthy home with a happy mim 50% (or more) of the time than an unhealthy home 100% of the time.

I don't like the sound of the course you mention because it is always advised that partners never go to joint counselling ect where there is abuse.

Perhaps you could start with YouTube vloggers who blog on on NPD ect. Sometimes it helps to hear about abuse from ppl who have come through it. Melanie tonia Evans on YouTube is good.

Erm, there are things you will never get to understand because they are simply irrational.

If you run a person with your car, you nay have not done it intentionally but the damage to the person is exactly the same. The same happens with abuse, and if you have been victim of it for a while, you will be conditioned to try to find every possible reason to excuse his behaviour rather than accepting that although he might not be a bad person his actions are hurting you and the kids and possibly in a more permanent way already.

Simply put, the vast majority of abuser wouldn’t accept they are perpetrators, they someway think that what they are doing is not that bad OR put the blame on someone else (the you-made-me-do-it or passing the blame down to their parents, the ex wife, the teachers or so on).

My advice is to stop yourself over thinking things and get out of this ASAP and hopefully soon enough before they are so used to the abuse they cannot longer identify a healthy relationship or become future abusers themselves.

What is the point of this navel-gazing though? He is abusive. End the relationship, look out for your kids and then do the freedom program and explore other resources to stop you from becoming with any other abusive person.

You don't know for certain that your daughter will take on the role of mediator in your family...what makes you think that would even happen in the first place? How old is your daughter?

You can't fix your husband. He has to want to fix himself. He needs to do the work himself, not have you do it for him. Has he actually shown any desire to get help for himself?

Actually, using the kids as mediators is considered abusive to children in SS’s book.

You could even have a chat with your daughter about things like not excusing bad behaviour.

If you led by example in leaving age could see that women should not tolerate abuse or seek to mediate it.

Kids learn by example. By staying in order to mediate, you are arguably teaching her the very behaviour you do not want her to have.

*she could see

@GrandmasCat your analogy of hitting someone with your car is a relevant one, thank you.

@BudrosBudrosGalli the ‘navel gazing’ is because I see that he is in a very vulnerable position, mental health wise. I am pretty sure our relationship isn’t salveagable. Why heap more wood on the fire?

@noirchatsdeux my daughter is mid teens. She is most definitely picking up on the atmosphere, and trying to smooth it over and calm things down. I know I can’t fix, or change, my husband. He has shown willing to try and salvage things - he’s had months of counselling through work and we’ve done relate as well.

@noirchatsdeux but I do see your point, in that by staying I’m teaching dd my ‘role’. I think it may be too late for this though - the moment I noticed her taking on the mediator role/understanding her father”s ‘pressure cooker’ moments - that was when it all went wrong for me. But I think that was too late - she’s obviously more aware than I gav3 her credit for.

I actually think a lot of emotional and coercive behaviour is unintentional from the perpetrator's point of view.
This doesn't change the impact on the victim though.

You mention poor communication - that is a huge one, especially with men, that they use to control you. It's not like they consciously set out to do it, but by refusing to have a conversation around any issues they deny you a voice.

The fact that you're tiptoeing around your husbands fragile mental health is telling.
There are so many people doing this for years and years, until they're a shell of the person they used to be, as they're moulded into whatever shape keeps the peace.

Agree Helga, a lot of controlling behaviour comes from insecurity, self loathing, anxiety and fear of loss. Doesn’t make it acceptable though.

@HelgaDownUnder thank you. It’s not that he refuses to have a conversation - in fact it’s the opposite. He says he’s decided he wants us to stay together. So he says, the decision is on me - do I want us to stay together or not?

Well, in an ideal world, we’d be together. Luxuriating on a Caribbean cruise, sen included, not a care in the world....

....that ain’t going to happen.

Dh is saying he wants a conversation about it all. But I just clam up, panic, can’t get my thought straight.

Last time I had ‘the conversation’ was in relate counselling - he said he’d rather be dead so the kids and I got insurance money. The time before that he showed me his self harm cuts 😥

The lady I spoke to today said that this was controlling behaviour - I suppose it is in a guilt trip kind of way, but it doesn’t acknowledge the mental pain he must be feeling 😢

Do you eee why I don’t know what to do?

No, I now see why you must get out.
Showing you his self harm cuts?!
Sorry, but that's pathetic.

I see that he is in a very vulnerable position, mental health wise. I am pretty sure our relationship isn’t salveagable. Why heap more wood on the fire?

On this, you have to “cure” yourself. The truth is that after living with abuse you cannot longer put your and your kids’ needs over his.

You are NOT going to stop caring for him and his needs for a very very long time (if you ever do) but you need to step out of that abuse victim’s mentality and separate your actions from your feelings.

Take the decision with your brain to step out of such toxic relationship because if you let the heart drive you may stay there even if he gets much worse. That’s how many women die at the hands of their exes, because they are conditioned to think the abuser’s actions are not their fault, and probably they aren’t, but the effect they have on those around them is the same.

OP he sounds like your standard covert narcissist. They often make things all about 'their pain'.

He is not in pain op. Repeat: not.in.pain.

It is all a con!

A manipulation to keep you feeling sorry for him so that you forgive all the bullshit. Or being too scared to leave incase he kills himself. It's a trick. A trap. A lie.

Of course, abusers can suffer from depression too tbf. But really op, font focus on 'his pain'. Focus on protecting yourself by getting the fuck out of there. You CANNOT help him.

OP I'm in a somewhat similar situation although no self harm involved. I think it can be so easy for people to tell others to leave but it's not that easy when children are involved. Perhaps once you've exhausted every single option and you're absolutely done then you may feel at peace with leaving.

In my situation my husband has learned terribly unhealthy behaviours and a poor communication style from his parents. I can see first hand exactly what they're like and they've damaged all their children. However that's not really my problem and my husband needs to make changes. He is in the beginning of some therapy for himself and we will be doing couples counselling too. I expect this to be a weekly thing for many years to come. If we didn't have children I would've left by now but we do. And leaving for me would only replace one set of problems with another. The idea of therapy was intimated by me but fortunately he did accept he needed to work on some things and has been open to it. Only time will tell if it improves our relationship significantly but I have seen an improvement already.

Is there any reason why you didn't continue with relate?

Also would he not see someone for himself regarding the self harm etc?