Coercive / controlling / abusive behaviour - but without intent?

[Sixeight]

I have had a variety of counselling, from nhs counselling to relate, and now I’m paying for a counsellor plus talking to someone from women’s aid.

My relationship is on the brink of being over - tbh I’m just trying to work out why, and what the bet outcome for the kids is :(

About 50% of counsellors so far have told me I’ve experienced coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in my relationship. The other half of counsellors (mainly nhs and relate) say they want to ‘park’ that side of things till the massive communication issues in the relationship are sorted.

My question is - is there any research or reading out there regarding coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in marriages that is actually unintentional from the ‘perpetrator’s’ perspective?

There isn’t a malicious bone in my husband’s body, yet I do acknowledge that his behaviour was unintentionally coercive, controlling and unhealthy. Which is why our marriage is falling apart.

Someone from women’s aid that I spoke to today said that if this wasn’t intentional, it could be learned behaviour from his upbringing? This does make sense, his mum is a pro at guilt tripping.

I have the opportunity to do a course about unhealthy behaviour within relationships (thinly veiled language for ‘abuse’) which I’d like to do. But I can only do it if my husband - we are hanging on to the relationship by our fingernails - agrees to it as well.

But asking him to do the course sounds, to me, like a death knell for his already fragile mental health. Relate counselling showed that he was totally unaware of the impact his behaviour has had on me - and, to be honest, my behaviour was just as unhealthy as his, as I never called him on it or told him how he made me feel.

Whatever the reason - my question is this. Can you point me to any resources, or reading, that explain this unhealthy relationship behaviour TO the unaware perpetrator, without making them feel like an abuser?

Thank you, @LemonsOrLimes. He was seeing a counsellor for months, I assume discussing the self harm among other things. He said they’d ‘given up on him’ so he stopped. (What actually happened is that it was funded by his health insurance, but he stopped when he’d done the max number of sessions allowed). We did quite a few months of relate, too, but ended up going round in circles and still not able to communicate outside of the sessions. He interpreted that as Relate ‘giving up on us’ as well, now I come to think of it.

I think I’m slowly getting to the point you mention - where I’ve tried every possible Avenue, with no success.

It was a bit of a lightbulb moment when I realised that unhealthy behaviour could be down to learned behaviour, or stem from anxiety, low self esteem etc. I’d always had it in my head that unhealthy behaviour/abuse was carried out with at least some level of conscious intent.

if it weren’t for the children I’d likely be long gone

OP, don't you see how totally fucked up this thinking is???

Your DC are the reason you SHOULD be gone. You'd save yourself from an abusive marriage, but not your kids?

I know you said you felt the Freedom Programme is for more extreme behaviour but it’s not, it’s simply that many women don’t understand how insidious and bad the behaviour is/was until they have gone through it. You can do it online, and concentrate on helping yourself rather than fixing your husband. In an emergency you put your own oxygen mask on first for a reason. He’s probably not even given any thought about how he could find resources or support for you or the relationship, has he?

I think you are describing perfectly normal abusive behaviour: he is like that because of his upbringing, his past, the relationship with his parents, because the counselour gave up on him and also Relate.

Do you see the common denominator here? He is not taking any responsibility for his own behaviour yet, despite all that intervention.

I bet that if things get worse when you leave him EVERYTHING will be your fault.

He is not in the path of improvement, while he keeps blaming others you have no chance to help him improve at all.

My question is - is there any research or reading out there regarding coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in marriages that is actually unintentional from the ‘perpetrator’s’ perspective?

In short - yes. That’s my opinion not research. I have seen two marriages where the man has behaved in that way. In one he doesn’t give crap and carries on - that’s abusive.

In the other he behaved like that becuase that’s the only thing he ever saw from his family and genuinely didn’t understand normal respectful ways to treat others. However he wanted to learn and change so has done. And I think that’s the main difference- when they do it without realising and then change once their eyes are opened.

On the basis that it will take time to resolve your situation, you can tell him you'd like to do the course on unhealthy relationships together.

Just because your perspective is that it's a veiled accusation of abuse, doesn't mean he will perceive it that way. Obviously he doesn't think his behaviour is abusive, so it won't sound that alarm.
I assume he'd agree your relationship is unhealthy, as he's 'decided he wants to save it' and has had counselling and been to relate.

This course aside, You need to start doing what you need to do, regardless of what he thinks. Stop endless discussions and negotiations.
How he reacts to that will be a helpful insight.

I have a different perspective, as my dm is unaware of her own abusive behaviour. She's the perpetual victim in everyone else's thoughtlessness. When you stand up to her, you get rage and threats of self harm. I manage this my controlling our contact so she has fewer opportunities to do it. So I evade and avoid rather than confronting.

Read up on grey rock. Use that with your husband. You'll find it really helpful.

I think the resources mentioned by PP are useful. If you'd like to learn more there are a few courses coming up on searches. You may be able to request their reading lists.

www.salford.ac.uk/courses/postgraduate/psychology-coercive-control

www.bcu.ac.uk/social-sciences/research/crime-and-society/research-projects/public-understanding-of-controlling-or-coercive-behaviour

People abuse for all sorts of reasons. With my ex it was shame based. When we feel shame we attack others, attack self, avoid or withdraw. When I first met him, he would punch himself in the head, them he moved on to blaming me and punching doors, maybe he would have moved on to punching me too. He would go into rages but he could'nt do it in public because that would make him more ashamed, it was saved for me because I would take it and I mistook this for intimacy. I would spend my whole day trying to stop him from forgetting something, making a mistake, made sure no-one tried to make jokes with him to stop the rages. It was my job to make his life easier and pick up the literal pieces after a rage. He made no attempts to manage his own response to shame. He had no ability to handle daily life and I minimised my own pain by focusing on his. It's why I stayed for so long.

Knowing how he worked had 0 effect on how many days I cried myself to sleep. It had 0 effect on how afraid I was. It had 0 effect on how much I wished things were different. Understanding him just made me even more paralysed. My role was to ease his suffering by being available to being abused. I left because my MH suffered and I realised that it was never going to improve with someone who could only maintain themselves at my expense.

Last time I had ‘the conversation’ was in relate counselling - he said he’d rather be dead so the kids and I got insurance money. The time before that he showed me his self harm cuts 😥

Do you really not understand that this is classic manipulation from an abuser? He's playing the suicide card in order to shut you up and keep you exactly where you are. He knows precisely what he's doing.

He was seeing a counsellor for months, I assume discussing the self harm among other things. He said they’d ‘given up on him’ so he stopped.

So it's someone else's fault. Of course it is. 🙄

Stop wasting your time trying to fix and understand him. He's an abuser, that's all you need to know.

Unfortunately abusers tend to have very limited empathy and often, no ability for introspection. So whether there is intent or not, that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

I mean, you wouldn't say of a psychopath who happens to kill people - that if you could understand why, you, their partner, would be able to stop them killing again, would you? And yet, psychopaths and similar disordered sorts are the very sort who make up a majority of abusers.

Not saying that nothing can be done for certain similar disorders, by trained professionals specifically working in this area (of researching methods of curing npd, psychopathy, sociopathy ect...) but there are very few of these people in the world. And as of yet, there is no cure.

Not saying all abusers are cluster b personalities of course. But generally they lack empathy. And that's something that cant be fixed.

And even if a person says sonething cruel without thinking, they should be able to reflect afterwords and say to themselves 'you know what, that thing I said last night, week, year...it was cruel. I should apologised and not repeat the behaviour or similar behaviour'. And follow through. But abusers cannot do this. Just because there is a reason behind them initially acting without thinking, does not mean there is an excuse for them never being sorry for the behaviour.

It’s not that he refuses to have a conversation - in fact it’s the opposite. He says he’s decided he wants us to stay together. So he says, the decision is on me - do I want us to stay together or not?

So that you will be the one making the decision and, yet again, he doesn't have to take any responsibility.

There doesn't need to be a malicious bone in your partner's body and I'm sure his abuse does come across as unintentional, he's a very good liar/actor, most of them are, but his behaviour is working for him - he won't be changing it any time soon. Look how much you've been through and it's not any better. It will keep harming you and your children until something breaks

Good lord, there IS intent: intent to maintain the status quo and always get what he wants.

There may not be conscious intent to directly be abusive, but I doubt many people overtly think each they do something manipulative, coercive, etc “I know, this time I will do this in order to cause this painful impact”.

He wants what he wants.

He doesn’t want a conversation. He’s only willing to have one conversation where the whole thing runs to his script: where you choose to stay, and I’d bet after agreeing to stay then he’d start with conditions where things need to change to make it all wonderful, and none of those conditions would be about his behaviour . You’ve said yourself that joint counselling went round in circles. That is NOT a man who is trying. That is a man who is paying lip service.

With your daughter, you need to show her with your actions that appeasement is not your job, and tell her with words it’s not hers either.

In my opinion, from what you’ve said, there is no salvaging your marriage, and no point trying to understand his deeper motivations. He’s manipulative, controlling, and coercive and won’t change. Stop trying to understand it or explain it - he is who he is. Start changing how you are dealing with it. That is the best way to your daughter what not to do.

You say he hadn't realised the impact of his behaviour on you until you had counselling, which implies he now is aware . Unless he has changed his behaviour (or possibly is moving heaven and earth to change), neither of which seems to be the case, it can't be considered unconscious or unintended any more.

Intention isn't magic.

The effects of abuse are the same on the victims whether the abuser intends to abuse or not.

Your dd is affected by this. While you live together and try to "fix" him and your relationship, your daughter is learning:

1. women stick out abuse and it's probably their fault

1. it's a woman's job to fix her partner

1. the man's mh is more important than anything else and anyone else's in the family, everyone else is worthless

1. relationships are more important than children

@Sixeight

Thank you, *@LemonsOrLimes*. He was seeing a counsellor for months, I assume discussing the self harm among other things. He said they’d ‘given up on him’ so he stopped. (What actually happened is that it was funded by his health insurance, but he stopped when he’d done the max number of sessions allowed). We did quite a few months of relate, too, but ended up going round in circles and still not able to communicate outside of the sessions. He interpreted that as Relate ‘giving up on us’ as well, now I come to think of it.

I think I’m slowly getting to the point you mention - where I’ve tried every possible Avenue, with no success.

It was a bit of a lightbulb moment when I realised that unhealthy behaviour could be down to learned behaviour, or stem from anxiety, low self esteem etc. I’d always had it in my head that unhealthy behaviour/abuse was carried out with at least some level of conscious intent.

I can only tell you that from the outside looking in - he is manipulating the counselling you maximum extent to his own gains.

Saying you hurt yourself because someone else is going to leave you is just beyond awful and clearly coercive abuse.

My ex my scales feel from my eyes but even now he says ‘your actions make me do this’ when he’s just been asked to do a normal coparenting thing. Until you see the freedom programme and counselling is to empower you - not to understand him you are stuck.

I have a highly abusive situation with my parents. I’m hyper sensitive to emotions and verbal and non verbal cues. I’m constantly trying to smooth things over and manage them. We are no contact but even this requires managing. My parent had an extremely abusive childhood - but he is now a grown man in his 80s and he’s not going to change. He does see it as abuse he did to me but him doing to best he can under the circumstances.

Until you can stand up and say I am responsible for me and not you and your actions. I want a divorce. I want to live alone and do counselling on my own and try understand this is about you. This is about healing you - not him.

Does it matter why he's controlling? He is controlling. It is damaging you and you can see it damaging your DD. Surely your DC and their future happiness are more important to you than your DH?

IF he has some 'excuse' of learned behaviour, do you not see that's even more reason to leave? As it means that every day spent with him is giving your DC a chance to learn the same behaviour. Or to emulate your pacifying behaviour. Which you say is already happening.

He is a grown man, who has access to support services. He sees himself always as the victim, which means he will likely never take proper responsibility for making himself well.

Your DC rely on you for their happiness and wellbeing.

Hmm. So, is another description of coercion known as ‘guilt tripping’? I can attribute a lot of dh’s behaviours to guilt tripping (albeit unconsciously most of the time).

@layladomino I want to know the reason that he behaves this way so that I can equip my children with the necessary tools/resilience to deal with it as they grow up (if we separate, they will be spending time alone with him without my mediation).

I also want to understand the mistakes I have made historically, so that I don’t make them again.

Op you don't equip children with tools to manage someone else's toxic behaviour. You teach them to move away from that person.

They probably won't want to see him.

@Mary1Mary they very much will want to have, and deserve to have contact with him.

People who exhibit unhealthy behaviours in one relationship don’t necessarily repeat that pattern if their new partner is equipped to give them short shrift. I wish I’d been self aware and confident enough to do this.

My abusive ex played the victim card too. I think you’re spending a lot of time procrastinating and analysing his behaviour to delay the inevitable which is that you need to separate and get away from him ASAP. You cannot equip your children to deal with an abuser - I get you’re aiming for damage limitation but realistically children who grow up in households with abusers usually go on to repeat the behaviours, so aim for them to repeat your behaviour of leaving him and not tolerating the abuse. Threatening suicide is one of the most common things abusers use to control you and I don’t think you’ll really appreciate how controlled you are until you’re looking at your relationship in the rear view mirror.

[quote Sixeight]@Mary1Mary they very much will want to have, and deserve to have contact with him.

People who exhibit unhealthy behaviours in one relationship don’t necessarily repeat that pattern if their new partner is equipped to give them short shrift. I wish I’d been self aware and confident enough to do this.[/quote]
That's not true op.

Not of abuse.

There is no defence against abuse if the abuser wishes to abuse you.

There is no magic secret to defending yourself against abuse that some people know and others don't.

Apart from one - leaving at the first sign of it.

@Pinkbonbon let’s disagree on that one then.

I do think that people who exhibit unhealthy behaviour in relationships (because it’s the only way they’ve learned to behave) could change their approach if they are with a strong, confident, self assured partner who calls them on their unhealthy behaviour at the first sign.

People who exhibit 7nhealthy behaviour in relationships due to maliciousness, less so - a strong, confident, self assured partner would just leave.

I think in the case of the first example though, it would be tackling the current display of abusive behaviour rather than the route of the cause. Tes, A strong, confident person might be able to say 'that behaviour is not ok' and the abuser then might decide to stop that specific behaviour. BUT it does not stop them being an abuser. And ultimately, the abuse would just take another path.

You may be able to divert the course of a river, but it is still fundamentally a river.

@Pinkbonbon I think some ‘abusers’ are using behaviours they’ve learned from their upbringing. If I wasn’t taught table manners growing up, I’d be able to learn them as an adult. If my parents gave in when I sulked, and I tried sulking at a partner who didn’t take any nonsense, I’d get short shrift. If I saw my mother getting her way with sulking/silent treatment and tried it with my partner - a savvy partner would just laugh and say ‘yeah right, dream on’.

However, a less experienced/naive partner would feel the guilt, the eggshells and do everything they could to placate him.

The latter is me, I wish I had been the former,