Coercive / controlling / abusive behaviour - but without intent?

[Sixeight]

I have had a variety of counselling, from nhs counselling to relate, and now I’m paying for a counsellor plus talking to someone from women’s aid.

My relationship is on the brink of being over - tbh I’m just trying to work out why, and what the bet outcome for the kids is :(

About 50% of counsellors so far have told me I’ve experienced coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in my relationship. The other half of counsellors (mainly nhs and relate) say they want to ‘park’ that side of things till the massive communication issues in the relationship are sorted.

My question is - is there any research or reading out there regarding coercive, controlling, unhealthy behaviour in marriages that is actually unintentional from the ‘perpetrator’s’ perspective?

There isn’t a malicious bone in my husband’s body, yet I do acknowledge that his behaviour was unintentionally coercive, controlling and unhealthy. Which is why our marriage is falling apart.

Someone from women’s aid that I spoke to today said that if this wasn’t intentional, it could be learned behaviour from his upbringing? This does make sense, his mum is a pro at guilt tripping.

I have the opportunity to do a course about unhealthy behaviour within relationships (thinly veiled language for ‘abuse’) which I’d like to do. But I can only do it if my husband - we are hanging on to the relationship by our fingernails - agrees to it as well.

But asking him to do the course sounds, to me, like a death knell for his already fragile mental health. Relate counselling showed that he was totally unaware of the impact his behaviour has had on me - and, to be honest, my behaviour was just as unhealthy as his, as I never called him on it or told him how he made me feel.

Whatever the reason - my question is this. Can you point me to any resources, or reading, that explain this unhealthy relationship behaviour TO the unaware perpetrator, without making them feel like an abuser?

Speaking as a retired psychotherapist I think you are being very optimistic here. Why should he change? The way he is now works for him.

He undoubtedly is the way he is because of things that happened in the past to shape him. Thats psychodynamics 101. That doesn’t change the fact that he is an abuser. If his learned response was to smack you or the kids in the face that would be physical abuse regardless of the fact that it was involuntary, learned behaviour and he had never known better. Emotional abuse is no different and you making excuses for him and thinking you can save him won’t change it.

Change is hard even when people want it and no one can change what they don’t acknowledge. As long as he sees himself as a victim he isn’t acknowledging any responsibility for his actions and will never see any need to change.

Finally, give up on trying to understand and explain him as if he were a case study. There is a reason why therapists do not work with people they know, let alone with partners. It’s impossible to get an objective view of things when personal relationships are involved. Instead focus on yourself. Why do you need to
Understand him so badly? Why is it so important to you that he isn’t deliberately abusive? Do you always need to win an argument to get closure? Why aren’t you focusing on yourself and your DC?

Absolutely , with normal neurotypical people, if you pointed it out to them op, they would have that self realisation and stop the behaviour. Abusive sorts...can't really do this.

You can teach table manners. But you cannot teach empathy. And you cannot teach self reflection to people who do not have that capability.

Think about it op, all these years you have probably been trying to teach him right from wrong. Even without noticing you were doing it. Is he a changed person? Has he learned kindness for you?

Have you brought him into the light more than he had dragged you down into despair and darkness?

I think you're probably a really kind person who hates to see people suffer. And you maybe still love him very much. But unfortunately...his kind use that to keep you trapped.

[quote Sixeight]@Pinkbonbon let’s disagree on that one then.

I do think that people who exhibit unhealthy behaviour in relationships (because it’s the only way they’ve learned to behave) could change their approach if they are with a strong, confident, self assured partner who calls them on their unhealthy behaviour at the first sign.

People who exhibit 7nhealthy behaviour in relationships due to maliciousness, less so - a strong, confident, self assured partner would just leave.[/quote]
I actually think that if someone has healthy boundaries and healthy attitudes towards relationships, they wouldn't enter into a relationship with someone like your partner in the first place, they'd spot the behaviour. Unless it was hidden behaviour in which case you'd be likely looking at intentional bad behaviour, surely.

It is also to do with what kind of behaviour you are talking about - some behaviour is going to be unacceptable whether intentional or not - if a partner shouts at you, you call them out and it never happens again that is one thing - someone who habitually threatens suicide is quite a different kettle of fish. Do you have any other examples of behaviour?

I think the key thing here though is that you also have problems with understanding what is healthy and what isn't - this has been going on a long time. Your priority here is to teach your dc about what is healthy what isn't and that has not yet happened, and they are teens. I think concentrate on that, on you understanding what is and isn't healthy objectively, what to teach your teens, and while doing that you will hopefully get some clarity about what to do with your relationship.

Teaching your teens how to handle potential toxic behaviour from their father is really complicated, and I think you need to achieve the above before you think about that

@Confusedandshaken

‘ Why do you need to understand him so badly? Why is it so important to you that he isn’t deliberately abusive? Do you always need to win an argument to get closure? Why aren’t you focusing on yourself and your DC?

I need to understand him because I see my daughter copying my behaviours. I KNOW that there are better ways of dealing with him than I have shown her - I want to understand what they are. She will continue to have a relationship with his - but without me - if we separate. I need to be able to explain his behaviour to her in a way that she understands but without vilifying her dad.

I am focussing on my dc 100%. If I wasn’t so concerned about my son’s mental health and my daughter taking on my role wee into leave, I’d have left long ago.

*wee into should be ‘were I to’ ...

'Kido, some people are lions and some are lambs. The lamb can never understand the lion. But if it hangs around one for too long, it might be eaten by it'.

Tell your daughter there is no excuse for abuse.
Tell her to never try to understand abuse, hist to get herself as far away from it as possible. Tell her women are not rehab fir damaged men. Tell her you are sorry you did not learn these things yourself earlier. And lead by example from now on.

People abuse for all sorts of reasons. With my ex it was shame based. When we feel shame we attack others, attack self, avoid or withdraw. When I first met him, he would punch himself in the head, them he moved on to blaming me and punching doors, maybe he would have moved on to punching me too. He would go into rages but he could'nt do it in public because that would make him more ashamed, it was saved for me because I would take it and I mistook this for intimacy. I would spend my whole day trying to stop him from forgetting something, making a mistake, made sure no-one tried to make jokes with him to stop the rages. It was my job to make his life easier and pick up the literal pieces after a rage. He made no attempts to manage his own response to shame. He had no ability to handle daily life and I minimised my own pain by focusing on his. It's why I stayed for so long.

key here is that this abusive man did not rage at or around other people- like his friends or boss- no, he does it around his partner because in his view, that's her job, to absorb his rage.

I also would say that when men offer excuses, like mental health, or childhood experiences- ask yourself, are all men with poor MH etc being abusive? the answer is no, they're not.

OP, many women start doing the freedom programme thinking they don't belong, that their DH isn't that bad, that they don't have any actual bruises to show. And then as they share experiences with other women and look at the behaviour that has come to seem 'normal'....they realise that it wasn't normal at all, it was abusive.

[quote Sixeight]@Confusedandshaken

‘ Why do you need to understand him so badly? Why is it so important to you that he isn’t deliberately abusive? Do you always need to win an argument to get closure? Why aren’t you focusing on yourself and your DC?

I need to understand him because I see my daughter copying my behaviours. I KNOW that there are better ways of dealing with him than I have shown her - I want to understand what they are. She will continue to have a relationship with his - but without me - if we separate. I need to be able to explain his behaviour to her in a way that she understands but without vilifying her dad.

I am focussing on my dc 100%. If I wasn’t so concerned about my son’s mental health and my daughter taking on my role wee into leave, I’d have left long ago.[/quote]
Thing is, while you stay, she's getting more entrenched in these behaviours and patterns.

While you stay, you're effectively condoning and normalising the abuse.

You don't need to understand him to try to undo what he has done, and is continuing to do, and will continue to do.

What your children need to see and be shown is that abusing loved ones doesn't work and makes them leave.

@category12

‘
Thing is, while you stay, she's getting more entrenched in these behaviours and patterns.

While you stay, you're effectively condoning and normalising the abuse.

You don't need to understand him to try to undo what he has done, and is continuing to do, and will continue to do.

What your children need to see and be shown is that abusing loved ones doesn't work and makes them leave.’

Ok, so it looks like the relationship isn’t going to make it. My children will (quite rightly) be spending time alone with their dad.They love him, he loves them.

If i don’t understand his behaviours, how can I protect my son’s mental health (he is the focus of most arguments) and stop my daughter being a mediator? I want to be able to teach them how to be strong and self confident in calling their dad out when they see unhealthy behaviour.

My view is that it is irrelevant if the unhealthy behaviour is deliberate or unintentional. What matters is that he not only behaving like this, but also that he seems unable to recognise it, or make any conscious effort to change. I would suggest you would be better focusing your energies on other things, like building a new life for you and DC.

How long have you been trying to understand and manage his behaviours already? You've been through tons of counsellors and counselling and nothing has helped and you're still there. And your children are still there. In the abusive relationship 100% of the time, with no respite and you impotent in the middle of it.

You can figure it out from outside the relationship. You can get your dc help. You can give your children a good example of how to live and how to be, and what is not acceptable. You can be the safe haven and the refuge from his destructive behaviours.

You're just teaching them this is the way to live at the moment, this is how you get what you want.

@Tallisimo

‘ I would suggest you would be better focusing your energies on other things, like building a new life for you and DC.’

But that new life will involve, quite rightly, weekends and holidays with their dad. I want to understand what’s gone wrong for me, so that they don’t have to go through the same as I did. That’s why I’m trying to understand all of this.

Best thing you can do is create a healthy safe space without him to which they can retreat.

There are probably books that'll help with how to 'coparent' with a toxic ex that might help.

I think honestly you're afraid to make the break (and understandably, it is scary) and so you have become locked into this idea that "I have to understand him before I leave him, I have to understand" round and round and round.

And you're justifying that inertia and frozen state by telling yourself it's for the kids' benefit. But it's not.

@category12 I agree with you - ‘ I think honestly you're afraid to make the break (and understandably, it is scary) and so you have become locked into this idea that "I have to understand him before I leave him, I have to understand" round and round and round. ‘

That’s pretty much spot on.I suppose I need to be able to explain to myself what’s gone wrong, and work out a way to explain to our friends etc what went wrong, without blaming him.

But when you say ‘And you're justifying that inertia and frozen state by telling yourself it's for the kids' benefit. But it's not.’

Why not? I’m not naive enough to think the kids haven’t picked up, to a certain extent, the atmosphere. But neither has asked why daddy hasn’t been around for the school holidays (apart from some weekends), neither has questioned the fact we’re in separate rooms. I am totally terrified of the mental health impact it will have, when we tell them that we are making 2 separate households.

[quote Sixeight]@Tallisimo

‘ I would suggest you would be better focusing your energies on other things, like building a new life for you and DC.’

But that new life will involve, quite rightly, weekends and holidays with their dad. I want to understand what’s gone wrong for me, so that they don’t have to go through the same as I did. That’s why I’m trying to understand all of this.[/quote]
No, you really don’t need to to understand ‘this’. It’s a human trait, trying to rationalise and explain, but sometime you just need to accept that it ‘is like it is’ and move on. Honestly, you aren’t doing your children any favours by trying to understand him and his behaviour. Your best route to a happy future is to show by example what constitutes a healthy relationship . You are just going to go round and round in circles, otherwise.

I do think that people who exhibit unhealthy behaviour in relationships (because it’s the only way they’ve learned to behave) could change their approach if they are with a strong, confident, self assured partner who calls them on their unhealthy behaviour at the first sign.

But how strong and confident are you looking to be if he hasn’t changed already. He continues because in his book nothing changes, you put up with whatever he throws at you so why would he change?

I think that abusers only realise they need to change is when they finally see the consequences of their abuse by either hurting their families badly to the point they get arrested or the kids or wife writing them off.

Why not? I’m not naive enough to think the kids haven’t picked up, to a certain extent, the atmosphere. But neither has asked why daddy hasn’t been around for the school holidays (apart from some weekends), neither has questioned the fact we’re in separate rooms. I am totally terrified of the mental health impact it will have, when we tell them that we are making 2 separate households.

It's not the atmosphere of the possible split that is the main problem. It's living in an abusive household that is the problem. Because you've already told us that your dd is affected by the abuse, that she's copying his behaviour, that she's trying to mediate - effectively copying both you and her father. You are all living in an abusive household and it is damaging your dc to stay, and teaching them an awful model of relationships, and teaching them abusive patterns.

You say they're not questioning you basically living separately in the house, so why do you think making the final decision will affect them so badly?

You're not really making sense to deny on one hand, that the children are affected, and earlier giving examples of how they are. It's quite normal to feel jumbled and confused in an abusive situation, but you need to understand, your children are being damaged in the current situation.

You can't equip your children to manage or handle him. If you didn't manage that after 20 odd years as an adult how do you expect two teenagers to do it after a lifetime of conditioning to do what he wants??
All you can do is talk openly to them about the problematic behaviours he displays and how they impact them and give them permission to rise above it. If your daughter knows that manipulative behaviour isn't ok and that her dad manipulated her when he does x and y at least she'll know it's not ok even if she can't control it.

Can I ask - in all your years together have you told your husband the way his behaviour makes you feel? And if so, has he ever tried to do anything to change it? Because if the answer is yes and no, then he's not an accidental unwitting abuser at all, he is a deliberate and knowing one.

He’s doing what abusers do - you trying to understand him won’t change him. It just keeps you there.
Your children are affected by this man.
You need to go - you can do the understanding later.
It’s boundaries you and your children need.
The focus needs to be on YOU not him.
You need to protect your children.
You need to teach them you don’t put up with this behaviour.
You need to leave him and show them.
He’s a manipulator - if you are concerned he will manipulate your children - start keeping notes of his behaviour - the things he says and does - you could refuse him access or ask for a contact centre for contact - he may up his behaviour towards the children - You need to protect them.
Do you know abusers spend the time they use blaming you - the reason is They don’t want you to know What he is thinking.
If you stay with him - the marriage will be hard work and all the effort will come from you.
Keep moving forward with your life - he’s not your responsibility.

He's been to a lot of counseling. Has he changed or is he still abusive?

The reason he does it, is because it works. He gets a lot of attention and people jumping to please him. He likes it that way.
Men like that hate women and feel they are beneath them.

I know you're looking for excuses to stay.
The best example you can set for your DC is to leave.
Right now, you're daughter is very at risk for ending up in a toxic abusive relationship.

There is no teaching your kids how to respond. It does no good because if gives the impression that there is something you all can do to make him stop. It also gives the impression that you have to stick around abusive people and manage them.

The response to abusive people is to leave and not be around them.

She will continue to have a relationship with his - but without me - if we separate. I need to be able to explain his behaviour to her in a way that she understands but without vilifying her dad.

@Sixeight have you considered that that is not realistic? And whilst you're continuing to expose her to your unhealthy relationship dynamic, that is what she's learning.

By leaving him you send a clear message that his manipulation is not tolerated. You discuss this with your DD explain that her dad's behaviour is unacceptable and encourage her to develop similar healthy boundaries against his manipulation. If that includes reducing contact then that is up to her. You may find that his manipulation/abuse increases as you split, in which case it's important that you get CAHMS support and raise concern around his emotional abuse.

You don't teach her to cope with her dad, you teach her that she's entitled to a happy life that doesn't include 'managing' emotionally manipulative and abusive men.

@KidneyBeans

She will continue to have a relationship with his - but without me - if we separate. I need to be able to explain his behaviour to her in a way that she understands but without vilifying her dad.

@Sixeight have you considered that that is not realistic? And whilst you're continuing to expose her to your unhealthy relationship dynamic, that is what she's learning.

By leaving him you send a clear message that his manipulation is not tolerated. You discuss this with your DD explain that her dad's behaviour is unacceptable and encourage her to develop similar healthy boundaries against his manipulation. If that includes reducing contact then that is up to her. You may find that his manipulation/abuse increases as you split, in which case it's important that you get CAHMS support and raise concern around his emotional abuse.

You don't teach her to cope with her dad, you teach her that she's entitled to a happy life that doesn't include 'managing' emotionally manipulative and abusive men.

This.

To answer your question, your daughter needs to know that you can love someone but refuse to accept their unacceptable behaviour. If they don't stop the behaviour, your love for them as a person does not require you to tolerate it to your own detriment.

I'm fact, your love for yourself requires that you protect yourself from the unacceptable behaviour because it is so damaging. Because you have value. None of this means that you don't love the person or that you don't have sympathy for their issues.

I saw quite a lot of toxic behaviour from my dad when I was growing up, we all pandered to it. I know what I'm talking about. And I have had a lot of anger against my mum who taught me that was normal.

I suspect you’re overestimating how much a split will affect your kids, and underestimating the damage that the current situation is doing to them. My mum was in a very similar relationship with a man who’s behaviour was terrible but he was apparently a victim of his childhood, his background, his learned behaviour, etc. The list of ‘reasons’ goes on and on, what he was actually doing was not taking responsibility for his behaviours and the affect it had on those around him. My mum tied herself in knots trying to understand, trying to tiptoe around his ‘damage’ and his delicate mental health. The net result was the same regardless- we kids were stuck in that toxic house whilst she did this, and with hindsight and a lot of therapy I can see the damage that caused me was immense.
I got to the point that I was begging my mum to leave- she had separated with my biological dad when we were younger and that had been handled really well so I knew we’d all be happier if she found the strength to leave. She never did and I left home the minute I could and my siblings were the same.

You have to be at peace with the fact you will never, ever understand and nor will you kids. And trying to do so is just an extension of the pacifying and unhealthy coping mechanisms you have used to handle with the situation so far. You’re doing all the hard mental work, whilst he gets to continue to be a victim- it’s just another way of you doing all the running and mental anguish and him being excused for his behaviour whilst doing diddly squat. Learning boundaries for you and your kids is far, far more important, learning to say ‘that behaviour is unacceptable, and I’m not going to tolerate it, take responsibility for it, or excuse it because you’re a damaged person’. I know it’s so hard when you’re in the midst of it but the reasons really don’t matter, and striving to find them won’t help you or you kids handle the situation better. Good luck OP, I know it’s so, so hard but you can do this.