Give this one a swerve? (Possible trigger warning)

[Timmysdownthewell]

Name changed for some opinions on this guys.

So, had a date at the weekend. Guy was great company and everything just felt comfortable with him. A great kisser too and...well, at the end of the night we ended up back at his. Just for a little fool about, no actual shagging involved. I made it clear that I don't do sex until a bit further down the line just because I find it a bit shit before you get to know someone. So that 'my trousers would be staying on'.

I should say that I'm not necessarily looking for a relationship right now. Oh and we are both double jagged.

Anyway, sorry to be graphic, but at one point he goes 'are you wet?' and proceeds to put his hand, down there. Now I was not ok with that but mostly because I haven't shaved in a while so I grabbed his hand and attempted to pull it back. There was maybe a two second window in which it took me to say 'I've not shaved so...' to which he said it didn't bother him and proceeded to have a grope about.

Now, if I honest, it just irritated me a little at the time. But didn't seem like a big deal. But now I think on it...that two second window before I told him why I didn't want his hand down there...and exerted pressure on his hand to pull it back. He should have said 'oops, sorry' and removed his hand right?

Now I've no need for the sexual assault brigade lol because I wouldn't put it in that category. Because you could argue that he thought hands groping about were acceptable seen as I'd allowed it in the top half. But I'm thinking maybe I should bin this one off right? Because if he does that without permission, he might be the sort who takes further leaps.

It's a shame because I liked this one. But I guess in hindsight it is a pretty big red flag right?

@Montauklighthouse

If someone continued to push their hand down after I had made it clear I wasn't comfortable that would not imply arguable consent at all? Am I missing something?

Because I then said 'I've not shaved' so he might have thought that was the sole reason for my objection after that point. Because thats not exactly a 'I dont want to' but more of a 'it might bother you' kind of statement.

I dont know what I'm not making clear. He had consent after my 'I havent shaved'. Begrudging consent. But still consent.

The only issue is the few seconds before that.
I'm not gonna repeat this again. Its exhausting.

I'd give him a swerve, OP. If he's not listening or respecting your boundaries he's probably bad in bed anyway.

I think what people are struggling with OP is that you saying that hadn’t shaved whilst physically trying to stop his hand isn’t really giving consent and that for a lot of people here, “grudging consent” isn’t really consent at all.

I think most posters are seeing more red flags / a bigger red flag than you see and the thread is becoming centred around the definition of consent.

I understand that that is not what you’re asking now, but it might explain why people are seemingly not understanding what happened. I think most of us get the timeline but I think a fair few of us wouldn’t class it as consent, grudging or otherwise.

Because I then said 'I've not shaved' so he might have thought that was the sole reason for my objection after that point. Because thats not exactly a 'I dont want to' but more of a 'it might bother you' kind of statement.

I'm not going to articulate this very well but this comment is very relevant.

You gave "grudging consent" which, as has been explained, isn't really consent at all.

You had already made it clear jow far you wanted it to go.amd he was trying to push that boundary.

But mainly, and I think this is why you are finding it difficult to see what others are seeing, your response and feelings were centred around his comfort and not your consent.

@Timmysdownthewell

Yes pp. He had consent after I mentioned not having shaved. Arguably. The issue was that few seconds where I reacted to his hand going that direction by attempting to pull it back. Like, if someone puts pressure on your hand to pull it away, that to me is an obvious 'no'.

And also as pps have pointed out, it was dubious to go that route without express permission too. But for me the above point is my main issue.

If you feel unsure then you're right to cancel.

Personally I think the consent bit is a bit blurry. You stopped him and he did for a few seconds while you explained the reason was that guy hadn't shaved. I think many people would take this as you worrying would he would think and/or being slightly embarrassed and he thought "oh she's a bit self conscious but it doesn't bother me" he tried again and you went along with it.

I think this is a bit different to "no, I don't want to" "no I don't feel ready" or just plain "no" - in any of those situations I would 100% agree there was a consent issue

If he forcefully kept his hand there, then that's one thing but if it maybe took him a second (or 2) to process the situation then it's not as bad.
Did he pull his hand back when you said no and about the shaving or did he keep going? I think you should go with your gut and if it felt off, even on reflection then it's worth avoiding him.

Just block him?

He didn't take his hand back.

I agree that some people would even consider after the 'no shaving' comment a consent grey area but I don't. And you know, my say goes in this case.

Though I do think that if the tables had been turned, I would have removed my hand. Just as a better safe than sorry thing tbf. Not because there wasn't consent but just because she had pulled back on my hand prior.

He didn't take his hand back.
I wouldn't like that. It would put me off too.

He's an animal, a base man who doesn't want to control his needs and urges unless absolutely necessary.

Your shaving comment should have been enough for him to stop and ask for further consent, but he didn't.
That doesn't show he was overwhelmed with sexual attraction for you op, it shows he has no repect for your needs in this relationship.

He pressurised you into thinking you're not 'cool' and you'd be uptight about reiterating your request of stopping him in his tracks. He knows exactly what he was doing.

The type of man that if you stayed with him and denied him sex for whatever reason would sulk and give you the silent treatment.

Ged rid, find a gentle - man.

I dont know what I'm not making clear. He had consent after my 'I havent shaved'. Begrudging consent. But still consent.

I think people are just clarifying what happened as it’s hard to establish if he knew there was no consent or if you were giving consent but just saying I’ve not shaved but he still thought he had consent.

It’s a really difficult one! I definitely see why you’d feel uncomfortable but I am not sure if he did this maliciously/deliberately as it seems like a bit of a grey area.
I do think we should listen to our gut and yours is saying somethings off.

@Timmysdownthewell

Basically the shaved or nit shaved comment is irrelevant. The issue us, there was a brief time period where I was obviously pulling back on his hand and he resisted.

You're right to think he's a bit coercive, lacks respect for boundaries & consent, and it's understandable you don't want to keep seeing him.

The wet comment is a bit too much/porny too.

The fact he kept his hand there shows he was thinking about what he wanted and not how you were feeling.

If he'd genuinely thought it might be embarrassment on his part, he could have asked if you wanted him to stop or removed his hand. He did neither.

I wouldn't see him again. Even if I didn't consider it to be 'serious', I wouldn't want to give him the opportunity to put his wants before my needs again.

If he’s like this on a first date when he should be wooing you, what will he expect in the second ? And if you’re feeling it then that’s fine.. nope sack him off , sounds a twat

@Letthelightoflove

I think what people are struggling with OP is that you saying that hadn’t shaved whilst physically trying to stop his hand isn’t really giving consent and that for a lot of people here, “grudging consent” isn’t really consent at all.

I think most posters are seeing more red flags / a bigger red flag than you see and the thread is becoming centred around the definition of consent.

I understand that that is not what you’re asking now, but it might explain why people are seemingly not understanding what happened. I think most of us get the timeline but I think a fair few of us wouldn’t class it as consent, grudging or otherwise.

Exactly this.

Absolutely OP your day goes

How are you getting on? Did you find the right words for the text?

Say! Your say goes.

@mnhq please may we have an edit button?

I think him asking/checking to see if you were wet is the start of him trying to push your (obvious to everyone but him) boundary.

It is him saying, you might be saying no, but I want to know what your body is saying - what YOU actually want doesn't count. It's also one step closer to coercing you to do what he wants because it creates something that can be debated as consent.

Once he went past your trousers he showed his true colours. He is a POS.

You are massively overreacting. Just tell him that he overstepped a little bit and enjoy your second date if you like him. Obvs see if he does anything similar again and if so bin him off.

Are you a teenager, and can't handle these kind of situations.?

OP has already said she doesn’t want to see him again. Do people not read?!

Aside from anything else it’s pretty grim to be asked if you’re wet and have a hand shoved down your trousers it sounds like to check. I’d be comfortable with that and probably find that hot with someone i had built a sexual relationship with - but not as the first time someone touches me there, it’s really pornified. It’s just depressing so many people seem to think this is fine - like where’s the bloody intimacy and romance aside from the consent issues? You wet luv and a rummage is hardly a bloody romance for the ages is it?

To me it soulds like he thought you wanted him to continue but you were embarrassed about not shaving and he was just saying he's OK with it. I wouldnt say it's a red flag, just clearer communication needed if you are not wanting things to go further x