Give this one a swerve? (Possible trigger warning)

[Timmysdownthewell]

Name changed for some opinions on this guys.

So, had a date at the weekend. Guy was great company and everything just felt comfortable with him. A great kisser too and...well, at the end of the night we ended up back at his. Just for a little fool about, no actual shagging involved. I made it clear that I don't do sex until a bit further down the line just because I find it a bit shit before you get to know someone. So that 'my trousers would be staying on'.

I should say that I'm not necessarily looking for a relationship right now. Oh and we are both double jagged.

Anyway, sorry to be graphic, but at one point he goes 'are you wet?' and proceeds to put his hand, down there. Now I was not ok with that but mostly because I haven't shaved in a while so I grabbed his hand and attempted to pull it back. There was maybe a two second window in which it took me to say 'I've not shaved so...' to which he said it didn't bother him and proceeded to have a grope about.

Now, if I honest, it just irritated me a little at the time. But didn't seem like a big deal. But now I think on it...that two second window before I told him why I didn't want his hand down there...and exerted pressure on his hand to pull it back. He should have said 'oops, sorry' and removed his hand right?

Now I've no need for the sexual assault brigade lol because I wouldn't put it in that category. Because you could argue that he thought hands groping about were acceptable seen as I'd allowed it in the top half. But I'm thinking maybe I should bin this one off right? Because if he does that without permission, he might be the sort who takes further leaps.

It's a shame because I liked this one. But I guess in hindsight it is a pretty big red flag right?

Did he pressure you for sex or respectful of your boundary? This would be the key question for me.

I think it’s blurred a it because I’d interpret it as you saying no only because of not being shaved. So I wouldn’t see it as assault or a red flag- but I wasn’t there, so only you can judge this.

Just on the consent thing...do women really expect men to explicitly ask before they move onto what would be the next logical stage of affection/sex?

If I am getting intimate with someone and they were to ask me every time they wanted to kiss me/touch me/etc I would find it a little off putting to be honest.

If I didn't want to have sex I would tell them (as the op did) or would tell them if there was anything specific I didn't want to do if it looked to be heading in that direction but for someone to say "can I put my hand down your trousers" would be off putting for me!

Right timeline:

1. He puts his hand down my trousers
2. I grab his hand and and attempt to pull it back out. For about the length of 2 or three seconds.
3. He resists and keeps his hand there.

THAT is the issue.

1. I tell him I haven't shaved. Implying that's why I'm not happy about it. He NOW arguably has consent to leave his hand there. Although you could argue I'm obviously not comfortable still with his hand there.

But the issue is point 3.

Basically the shaved or nit shaved comment is irrelevant. The issue us, there was a brief time period where I was obviously pulling back on his hand and he resisted.

But with it being just a few seconds between that and consent it could just have been a heat of the moment thing. Hense the mumsnet post.

Hmm you said no sex not no fingering. By all means if he gave you a bad vibe or the creeps then I would bin him but if you enjoyed his company and didn’t feel pressured then I wouldn’t consider that this action in the heat of the moment as a red flag on its own.

Also a moment of resisting could also be read as a passionate pause rather than anything sinister. Especially if you were topless and really hot and heavy. BUT only if it made sense to you in the moment and you didn’t get a weird feeling - you have to follow your gut as you were the only one there.

OP I think maybe your boundaries are a little off here. I would have felt very uncomfortable with what happened - he overstepped given you had said “trousers on”, he didn’t respond to your physical cue to stop and he ignored your verbal request to stop because he determined it wasn’t an issue for him (ignoring whether it was an issue for you or not).

However, the text message….

Hi, I’ve decided that a second date isn’t really going to work for me. Thanks and best of luck.

Then block so you don’t get drawn into any conversation because it won’t benefit you. You don’t him an explanation and if you don’t feel comfortable explaining why, you don’t have to.

Right timeline:
1. He puts his hand down my trousers
2. I grab his hand and and attempt to pull it back out. For about the length of 2 or three seconds.
3. He resists and keeps his hand there.

This makes a lot more sense.
What happened after number 3?

It could have just been a simple misunderstanding but you said no and he continued and you feel it was wrong as you’ve started a thread so your gut is telling you something so I would listen to it.

“Just on the consent thing...do women really expect men to explicitly ask before they move onto what would be the next logical stage of affection/sex?”

If you were making out with someone who said “I’m keeping my trousers on” then of course you should ask before shoving a hand down the trousers. I don’t see this as a grey area at all.

@Sunshineandflipflops

Just on the consent thing...do women really expect men to explicitly ask before they move onto what would be the next logical stage of affection/sex?

If I am getting intimate with someone and they were to ask me every time they wanted to kiss me/touch me/etc I would find it a little off putting to be honest.

If I didn't want to have sex I would tell them (as the op did) or would tell them if there was anything specific I didn't want to do if it looked to be heading in that direction but for someone to say "can I put my hand down your trousers" would be off putting for me!

I wouldn't expect them to seek explicit permission/verbal consent every step of the way but if I said no or pushed someone's had away, I would expect them to respect that!

Lol, number 4! It's literally on the same post lol.

Thanks letthelight , think I'll go with something like that.

@WoodenFloors Oh yes, I completely agree. I was just curious on the explicit consent thing as some people were saying he shouldn't have touched the op down there without asking first.

But yes, saying I am keeping my trousers on is a little different to "i'm not having sex" and is something I guess I might say if I were on my period or something so if I were a man (ha) I might check before putting my hand down there in that case.

@Timmysdownthewell

Right timeline:

1. He puts his hand down my trousers
2. I grab his hand and and attempt to pull it back out. For about the length of 2 or three seconds.
3. He resists and keeps his hand there.

THAT is the issue.

1. I tell him I haven't shaved. Implying that's why I'm not happy about it. He NOW arguably has consent to leave his hand there. Although you could argue I'm obviously not comfortable still with his hand there.

But the issue is point 3.

I'm going to try and word this really carefully because I don't want to be accused of victim blaming, which I'm not aiming to do. This guy definitely should be swerved. A similar thing happened to me once when I was younger but I didn't handle it well.

You said that you don't get involved having sex with someone until you know them well. That said, it would have been wiser not to go back to his house and "fool about" or dress up your unwillingness to go further by giving him TMI about not having shaved your girly bits. This is totally unnecessary, and he's pounced - give an inch and they take a mile, kind of thing.

A guy I was being driven home by from a night out with friends where he was too (I'd seen him a few times but not actually been out with and I really fancied him) put his hand up my dress and did what you described. I told him no, I wasn't up for it and he said "But you are as wet as bloody hell" as if that gave him the green light. I should have never seen him again, but pined after him when he didn't want to see me again. I blame being 17 and stupid.

You have the right to say stop, no, at any stage. I just learned it's wiser not to get into that situation in the first place if there's a chance it might go too far. But look at it this way, he's an arse and you've found this out sooner rather than later.

Don't see him again, you don't owe him a thing.

I would perhaps say something like "Thanks for last night. On reflection though, one or two things made me feel a little uncomfortable and I'd rather not have another date". You can be more specific if you feel comfortable so that he might not sop the same thing again.

You don't need to categorise what he did as a red flag or as assault to be uncomfortable with it and for that to be reason not to see him again. You didn't like it in retrospect - that's all the justification you need.

The thing is there can often be a grey area with things like this. You don't know whether that was a sign he feels entitled to overstep your boundaries sexually/otherwise - or whether he was just clumsy and got carried away for 2 seconds. I've been on the receiving end of this and I wasn't even sure how I felt about it afterwards. It's possible that I might have been on the giving end. When you're young and inexperienced it's easy to think being sexually aggressive is a turn-on and to do it clumsily.

And in turn we can't give you a definitive answer either.

But the most important thing to me is that you don't need to categorise it to justify feeling uncomfortable in the moment or in retrospect and to stop seeing him because of it.

Good luck OP - this thread has gone a bit off topic and I think some people are giving you a hard time. I hope you’re ok.

This first date made you uncomfortable enough to question the incident.

He over powered you physically and mentally.
You have made excuses for him, you squirmed, told him not to put his hand there, he should have pulled away and respected your boundaries, even if it was in the heat of the moment.

I understand you may have been having a fondle, but his refusal to listen to your request shows he has little respect overall for women and for you.

Trust your gut, he's hardly a gentleman.

@Timmysdownthewell if you stay with this guy you will be the author of one of those "my dp keeps grabbing/groping me" threads in a year or so.

If you tell someone not to touch your vagina they have no right to ask why. You don't owe them an explanation and TBH to give an answer like I haven't shaved is degrading to yourself.
You are offering him the chance to judge whether your reason for not wanting somebody to touch your vagina is good enough, and lo and behold, he said it wasn't.

He already thinks he's entitled to touch you sexually despite you saying and showing you are not wanting him to

Also , this heat of the moment thing is just selfish. So he can be as sexually aroused as he likes and you have to keep a level head and grounded in case he needs telling during his more important than yours state of arousal? This is all very lie back and think of England, this man thinks he's entitled, he's sexually immature and disrespectful.

You didn't like it in retrospect - that's all the justification you need.

Yes- well put @gannett

It doesn’t need to be categorised or labelled a red flag. You have a bad feeling about him- it’s enough.

Lol, number 4! It's literally on the same post lol.

Sorry! I meant after number 4.
So basically did he continue having his hand down there until it was over and you didn’t say anything or did you tell him to stop again and then he pulled it away? Or did you tell him to stop again and he still kept on?

I just let him fiddle uncomfortably for a bit. You know that thing they do where they're trying to assess if they can... open the doors without pressing the doorbell. Yeah, that shit lol.

After number 3 isn't really the issue. He had consent then arguably. But he didnt try anything else later or anything. Not that I was there for much after that.

@Timmysdownthewell

Basically the shaved or nit shaved comment is irrelevant. The issue us, there was a brief time period where I was obviously pulling back on his hand and he resisted.

I see what you mean ; sorry I didn't read carefully enough before. Regardless of whether it's a general red flag him leaving his hand there for 2 seconds and, more importantly, resisting you moving it away. The issue is that you are clearly not happy with this now you've thought about it, and that sounds like his general approach is not going to be compatible with what you need to feel comfortable. You don't need to debate whether it's assault etc, just to acknowledge what works for you.

Another interesting question might be, if you were not a regular reader of this board, would this incident have bothered you, or do you think you'd still feel uncomfortable with it? I have found it a real eye opener to read on other threads that many posters are put off by this, that or the other thing, when some of those are things that don't bother me, and others are things I'd like. The "ideal relationship" as constructed by the Mumsnet hive mind might not suit some of us at all. But what Mumsnet is great at is reminding you that you don't need anyone's permission or approval to do what is right for you.

Yeah that's a good question pp. I've been on here for a good 6 years so I was

If someone continued to push their hand down after I had made it clear I wasn't comfortable that would not imply arguable consent at all? Am I missing something?