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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't trust my own judgement on fighting for this relationship

104 replies

Perfectlyadjusted · 25/07/2021 13:41

Been with my partner (is he still?) for 10-ish years. We have three children together aged 5 down to 1. IF we consider that being a god dad can be separate to being a good partner, he is a good dad. Lots of fun with them, very engaged in their development, family-oriented as in he takes them to his family, constantly thinking of them, homeschooling through lockdown, cooking for them (btw he does a deep clean every so often) he just loves them.

We had a great relationship for none of those years. The last year has been awful. He runs his own business and Covid scuppered a lot of his plans and made life very difficult for him. I had a baby at the beginning of lockdown, we also moved house.

So, about a year ago we had an argument. Nothing unforgivable, really not a vicious argument at all, but I think with the business being difficult etc, he was very sensitive. We made up, but actually he didn't. His feelings festered and he kind of ex-communicated me. This is lockdown, I can't see my family, newborn, two other kids, homeschooling etc. It was such a toxic environment. No arguments, just like a Cold War, he was impenetrable. Like stone. He switched off from me completely. he doesn't do anything actively mean, but he's ceased doing anything positive, too, if you see what I mean. he's taken away all of the positives, and I feel their loss, and those positives were why I was with him. There's very little care or concern for me right now, and close to zero affection (though sex is ok, we are doing this again now after nothing for maybe 9 months).

We are not married. Before the birth of our first child I wasn't bothered about this, since then I have been. His own parents remain married, but his dad was in and out, I don't think he has a good model of marriage (my parents are still together through their ups and downs, just life stuff, a normal marriage I expect). I'm very close to my family, too. Now I wonder whether he never really loved me, or was committed, is this why we aren't married actually? Would that have made a difference/ would he have tried harder rather than to let things fester from over a year ago until he felt absolutely nothing for me?

More recently we have had a few heart to hearts and he says he feels numb about me. Doesn't feel any romantic love anymore. He can't help it. Says he doesn't know if someone has changed in him completely and that he can't feel any happiness, or love or good feeling about anything apart from the children. He planned to move out to change the routine, pattern of things, sort out his head, get therapy (individual, not couples), but he couldn't bring himself to in the end, I think. The reasons he gives are the argument we had, he can't really get over what I said, he says he has spoken to other men about it and they say it's a small thing just move on, but he can't. He says that other things have grated on him since then, too and he just feels bad about me.

I think he is depressed honestly. But he is very invested in his business, works around 16 hours a day, has done for many years now. He takes kids to school etc, then to the office, home around midnight, 1 o clock. That was eating into our relationship anyway, but at this juncture, I can see how we can fix things when he is actually proposing more distance. He says he wants to see if things can improve between us, but that he is not getting on well with opening up in therapy (they feel like strangers). He can't talk to me about everything, he needs an impartial person. I also feel like 'oh great, you get to go and get some space from family to repair yourself, IT'S BEEN HARD FOR EVERTYONE'. When I'm a single mum to three kids where is my reprieve? My respite?

I can see he is making little baby steps, but I really feel I am doing more to try to repair our relationship, and I do think 'why, when he doesn't even love me? He drove us over the cliff and didn't even tell me how he felt for a year and I just limped on thinking the business is bad, be supportive'.

I so much want to just say it's over, give myself a rest from trying, find someone who likes me (no matter love!).

On the other hand I think of the kids, they love their dad so much. And, what if he is in a very bad patch, mid life thing, depressed, shouldn't I be more understanding and supportive now.

It just feels like the woman is the one fine with everything and she always has to be strong and what about us though?!

Am I just being a pushover, kind to the point of stupidity. The man says he no longer loves me for Pete's sake. I'm not sure I can keep up romantic feeling for him when it's clearly unrequited.

Good lord, what a mess.

OP posts:
Fireflygal · 26/07/2021 17:22

he says what I said shows a side of my character he can't get on with

I'm so sorry you have to hear this crap from the father of your 3 children. His ego is so bruised that he can't recover (and your fridge isn't stocked well enough). I now suspect OW stroking his ego and making him feel he deserves better. She may be well hidden because he won't want it to tarnish his image. Cherchez la femme

Can you get him to agree to a good financial solution whilst he might be feeling guilty?

Btw, you sound like a great mum and clearly an intelligent woman. He's a fool to lose you.

Cloudfrost · 26/07/2021 18:27

U can't make him put the effort in, and he, for whatever reason, is not interested in putting any effort in.

Everything he has said to you is a 1000 times worse than what u said to him in the argument.,and argument in which he originally said something awful to you as well.

You are already a single parent with all that you do, kick him out of the house and stop pandering to his silly demands if he doesn't like what u cook or what's in the fridge he can cook himself/go do the shop himself.

It's unbelievably sad how much gaslighting he has done on you to paint himself as the victim here. He has purposely been cold and hurtful for you for over a year! Can someone give him the biggest sulker award please Hmm

Charley50 · 26/07/2021 22:14

"Btw, you sound like a great mum and clearly an intelligent woman. He's a fool to lose you."

^^ I fully agree with this comment. And a great partner too.

Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 22:35

Thank you both.

It's lovely to hear you say that. Honestly though? I had my third child a little over a year ago. I'm 40 now. This pregnancy left me with that crinkly tummy around the belly button thing, even saggier boobies and a bit of a bladder prolapse, and I just feel like the most rejected unattractive woman out there!!!

I've pulled out the make up again to make myself feel better. I don't wear much, lipstick and mascara, but it felt like I was putting on defence armour I feel so embattled!

Onwards.

OP posts:
FetchezLaVache · 26/07/2021 22:50

He does not see himself in another relationship any time soon, he says he thinks he sucks at relationships

Based on this alone, I too would suggest cherchezing la femme, OP.

I think this argument you had a year ago is nothing more than a stick to beat you with. You haven't given him much - only that and occasionally giving them egg and beans - so he's having to keep referring back to that as a pretext. I don't think he sounds like a very nice man and he doesn't deserve you.

Give it a year or so by all means, but I would advise you start setting things in place ASAP so that you can manage without him financially if and when it comes to it.

Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 23:07

No way, not a year.

My parent had a serious illness in early 40s. I consider life to be very precious. I'm nearly that age.

No way at al would I give it a year of my life. It could very well be my last.

Nope. No way. No how!

OP posts:
IceLace100 · 26/07/2021 23:10

You sound very string and a great mum.

Not sure what you can do about the relationship, but you can focus on your own finances and earning potential. So then if things do go wrong you have everything set up and you don't need to worry.

Are there any extra opportunities you could take work wise to ensure your own safety and stability?

Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 23:17

I'm completely on it now. The kids are young now, but they will be three expensive teenagers and then early 20s before I know it! All wanting a house deposit, probably! I can't bank on their dad, he's always done so much I wouldn't have expected so I am making moves, believe me.

OP posts:
Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 23:17

sorry he's ALREADY done so much...

OP posts:
IceLace100 · 26/07/2021 23:18

@Perfectlyadjusted

I'm completely on it now. The kids are young now, but they will be three expensive teenagers and then early 20s before I know it! All wanting a house deposit, probably! I can't bank on their dad, he's always done so much I wouldn't have expected so I am making moves, believe me.
Such amazing news!

You have SO got this!

FetchezLaVache · 26/07/2021 23:26

@Perfectlyadjusted

No way, not a year.

My parent had a serious illness in early 40s. I consider life to be very precious. I'm nearly that age.

No way at al would I give it a year of my life. It could very well be my last.

Nope. No way. No how!

That was what I was really hoping you'd say!

You're awesome, OP. He is going to regret this so much one day before too long.

FetchezLaVache · 26/07/2021 23:29

PS to clarify, I was really hoping you'd say you wouldn't give it another year, not that one of your DPs had been seriously ill in their early 40s... I do hope your parent has made a full recovery Flowers

Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 23:42

Also, the kids now would not remember him living with them if I made the split soon. Hear me out, that sounds awful! But in a year or two the eldest would definitely feel the atmosphere in the way that they don't now because they are just so young. I don't want them to remember the day daddy left and all of that. I can spin a pretty good version of the truth now, like 'oh daddy is living over there because he wants his own room, like you do! maybe you can help decorate his room with bunting!'. This kind of thing. At 7 or 8 years old, you are dealing with children who are worrying about their parents, expecting arguments, wondering if they did something. The youngest two right now would know nothing different to a separated mum and dad.

Better to make the break sooner rather than later.

Truly never would have imagined he'd do a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but he has. That's life. So yes, time fo ray superwoman routine....

OP posts:
CandyLeBonBon · 26/07/2021 23:46

Wow. Just read all the way through.

Sorry op but you've been totally conditioned to pander to his ridiculous, self absorbed, selfish and self centred narrative, and he is now punishing you because you dared to stand up to him and his mighty patriarchal ego.

I too would be cherchezing la femme.

He's putting all the blame on you, deflecting and projecting so you tie yourself in knots trying to appease him.

Let him go. He's not a great man, he's a manipulative shitbag.

CraftyYankee · 26/07/2021 23:50

Stop doing anything to facilitate his life - no cooking, cleaning, laundry or sex. Don't kick him out though because then you lose whatever respite he gives you while he's using the kids to fill whatever emotional hole he's experiencing (yes, my eyes just completely rolled in their sockets). Why do they get to swan off with their midlife crisis and hurt feelings while women are stuck with everything practical?

Perfectlyadjusted · 26/07/2021 23:57

Right now the kids are the the where the teacher bounces up to me at the end of the day and says 'they are so polite and well-mannered, it's a delight to have them in class'. I need sleep for sure, but he is definitely the loser. Going from living with these delightful little people to every other weekend or whatever, and possibly having them come and jump around on. the bed in the morning on stepdad's head rather than his? he's totally the loser. He's losing so much. the best sex in the world wouldn't make up for that. But I've seen men lose 8 figure salaries because they've been caught doing naughty things, so who knows honestly.

the interesting thing is that we have been together more than 10 years. His friends, all around 35 to 45 are desperate to have kids and settle down. They say things like 'hope your gold dust rubs off on me mate'. You know? And recently they have stared settling down, but curiously with much much younger women, from 23 to 27 years old. I don't have anything against that, I dated much older men in my 20s, but it's just so weird that so many of them are doing exactly the same thing now. It's definitely a thing.

Maybe he has decided he wants a younger prettier woman again? Who knows. There's no denying I'm not about to grace any magazine front pages any time soon! So meh.

These kids though, precious. His huge loss.

OP posts:
Perfectlyadjusted · 27/07/2021 00:05

I'm not looking for the woman. I'm busy with 3DC. If there is one, that's her job, to be continually thinking about me, which she likely is now! And of course, she'll have to constantly be looking over her own shoulder, because if he can do this to us and our family and our kids, she's always going to vulnerable. Good luck to her. I'll do her a favour and won't punch down, I've got my hands full raising kids....

OP posts:
CraftyYankee · 27/07/2021 00:10

Get as much info as you can for a CMS claim, since you won't be entitled to anything else. Hopefully he pulls his head out of his ass, but signs are not looking good at the moment. Good luck to you. ❤️

Bollindger · 27/07/2021 00:10

Ask him to take 3 days off and step into your shoes.
Tell him he can see what being a full time mum is like, cooking cleaning, washing everything, and you go visit your parents or a friend.
Tell him you want him to see how the endless responsibility of 3 children and no help is effecting your relationship..

Onthedunes · 27/07/2021 02:47

Hi, I have not rtft but read your posts.

You sound very measured and to be honest not very angry or emotional for someone who has been essentially grey rocked by her partner.

It seems everything hinges on this argument a year ago, an argument that made him feel like he wanted to vomit and brought him to his knees.
I've got to be honest the only time when I've known people feel like that is when their partners have betrayed them. Not saying you have but you speak as though you are waiting for him to forgive you.

His lack of forgiveness seems to be making you feel contempt for him but you say he has seen several therapists to help him get over this block between you, nothing is helping, he sounds very hurt, more hurt than just saying you don't need him in the heat of an argument and I don't think the numerous therapists are for just a box ticking excercise to exit the relationship.

Some posters have directed you into believing that he has checked out of the partnership because there maybe another woman waiting in the wings but it doesn't seem that way to me.
He sounds like a man who is broken by something and I don't think he's putting that on for his own agenda.

Maybe I'm wrong but something just doesn't add up. Some of the little things you say don't sound like a heartbroken woman who thinks her partner has checked out and is contemplating a life with someone else.

He also sounded a very involved, responsive partner for nine years and suddenly this changed overnight.

Whatever the reasons for your partnership breaking down it does sound as though you really don't have the patience for him to open up again.

You still have trust in him and are willing to continue but it appears he has lost his trust in you and is unable to move on.

Fireflygal · 27/07/2021 08:20

@Onthedunes, I'm not sure if you have any experience of a relationship breakdown but
Perfectlyadjusted has been dealing with this for a year. She has gone through various "makeups" with him and yet he keeps going back to blaming her.

He is functioning is other areas of his life but isn't committed to his relationship. Only time will show what the underlying reason was but from experience it appears to have the hallmark of OW.

@Perfectlyadjusted, I'm amazed at your clarity but I guess you have lived this for a year and you know your worth.
Yes, if his friends are with younger women it's possible he has envy and feels he deserves more, such as to be adored and to be indulged. I truly despair at the men who grow up with such a feeling of entitlement. What they don't seem to understand is that in 10 years they will be back to feeling the same way but without their children's respect.

Perfectlyadjusted · 27/07/2021 23:10

@Onthedunes

Hi, I have not rtft but read your posts.

You sound very measured and to be honest not very angry or emotional for someone who has been essentially grey rocked by her partner.

It seems everything hinges on this argument a year ago, an argument that made him feel like he wanted to vomit and brought him to his knees.
I've got to be honest the only time when I've known people feel like that is when their partners have betrayed them. Not saying you have but you speak as though you are waiting for him to forgive you.

His lack of forgiveness seems to be making you feel contempt for him but you say he has seen several therapists to help him get over this block between you, nothing is helping, he sounds very hurt, more hurt than just saying you don't need him in the heat of an argument and I don't think the numerous therapists are for just a box ticking excercise to exit the relationship.

Some posters have directed you into believing that he has checked out of the partnership because there maybe another woman waiting in the wings but it doesn't seem that way to me.
He sounds like a man who is broken by something and I don't think he's putting that on for his own agenda.

Maybe I'm wrong but something just doesn't add up. Some of the little things you say don't sound like a heartbroken woman who thinks her partner has checked out and is contemplating a life with someone else.

He also sounded a very involved, responsive partner for nine years and suddenly this changed overnight.

Whatever the reasons for your partnership breaking down it does sound as though you really don't have the patience for him to open up again.

You still have trust in him and are willing to continue but it appears he has lost his trust in you and is unable to move on.

@onthedunes You are right with much of what you write. That I feel contempt for him. It's not all I feel, but I do feel it. Somewhere up thread I spoke about feeling that way for anyone who intervened to and threatened the dissolution of my family. I find it hard to not think of him as that person, through he is part of that family. Our children will find this painful and confusing if not now then later down the line and for who knows how long, they will not feel relief because we don't physically fight, or argue lots around them, we don't create bad atmospheres because we actually get along as people. He'll come in tonight and talk about the day's events, as will I, Simone Biles pulling out whatever, and we'll agree on lots, and listen to each other's perspectives and be thoughtful together. We get along ok and can just chill together. But he no longer loves me, he's emotions are actually so overwhelming he says he is numb (he thinks this is nothingness, when I really do believe it is that his feelings are so extreme he has shut down and can no longer feel them).

I probably don't sound very emotional. I have a job where I need to have an unflappable response to almost anything I hear to allow others to feel contained, and I think that spills over. I'm so practiced in it. I'm that woman who presented at 9 inches in all pregnancies because the midwives assessment over the phone was that labour hadn't yet gotten underway. That's me. But this is something I have worked at for 10 years and am losing and my children will feel the los the most, so I have many many feelings about it. I did all of my crying over one weekend, I have 3DC to look after, falling apart will get me precisely nowhere.

I too believe he is broken. I had another conversation with him and he said he is scared of failing and that is why he can't put the effort in. He says he knows that sounds crazy because not putting the effort in means certain failure. Because some high achieving men, like him tbf, think they are an island and so just work with more intensity when things are challenging at work, because they just pull up their own bootstraps, because they mentally flagellate themselves, he truly thinks that more distance, this trip away, will bring positive change to him, clarity, insight etc. He is wrong. A problem in a relationship needs to be sorted in that relationship, even if you do work on yourself separately. Its almost childish. My children go and sulk on the stairs when they are feeling low. Hopefully when they grow up they will learn that they need to come to me for help, advice, communicate their feelings, for support. He hasn't learned that. He does suck at relationships, and he's fallen at our first hurdle. he has tried several therapists, but no one therapist for longer than an initial session.

I think if I said to him 'baby, I will do whatever you want to make this work, cook, clean, do whatever I need to make you trust me again or take back what I said' he would be up for it. The thing in when he met me more than a decade ago I actually ran a feminist organisation I co-founded, putting on conferences etc the works. I take on a very gendered role in my family now because needs must, I won't put ideology before my kids. But he knows I am not someone who can throw myself into a domestic life and die happily knowing that I did given I had other options and was fully capable. He says he doesn't want me to do this anyway because I'd be resentful, but I don't thing that rings true.

10 years ago he needed an equal, a get up and go, ambitious, smart, sexy (to him anyway, I'm not blowing my own trumpet) woman whom he thought would be a great mum. Now, honestly speaking, he could leave, I raise the kids very well indeed as he has observed for 5 plus years, and live somewhere else with a woman who just cooks his cultural cuisine, cleans the house and has sex. He can find her very easily after a few hours on a plane back home.

So you are right, I don't have much patience now that it seems he thinks I am the big problem in his life (not the business, or context around it, or lockdown or covid, or other obstacles he is facing), now that he sees me as the issue of concern rather than a supportive partner who is right there by his side. One conversation apparently triggered that change.

OP posts:
Onthedunes · 30/07/2021 00:31

I will condense it...

I think you are stronger than him, both of you sound as though you do not wish to appear weak.

For a relationship to thrive both couples need to feel safe enough to let down emotional defences.

It appears there is a power struggle. Maybe you are thriving more than him and if you want to help him I think you are going to have to swallow your pride and help pick him up from his depression and pass on a bit of power and help regain his confidence agian.

Unless that conversation last year was related to you betraying him then I think his feeling of not being needed is the crux of the problem, his strength is being questioned and to be frank you do sound rather detatched from feelings and sympathy.

You also sound rather proud of your lack of emotion about it all, you talk about him as though you have de humanised him, stating any person that would threaten the dissolution of your family would recieve the same treatment.

It is a very practical and pragmatic way of speaking not usually alligned with a relationship.

It reminds me, with the ten year anniversary of Amy Whinehouse's song - 'stronger than me'.

I don't know, it's difficult to understand your posts as it feels there are chunks of information missing and posters are trying to fill the blanks.

Perfectlyadjusted · 30/07/2021 09:28

Thanks for your post.

OP posts:
Perfectlyadjusted · 30/07/2021 17:26

@Onthedunes

I have thought about your message after reading again now. My first response to some of what you said was offense, so I thought there might be something in it and I should give myself some time to reflect.

It might be true that I do not wish to appear weak on here. I'm not sure. I think some women are already shaking their heads thinking 'I wouldn't have put up with that!', others will be thinking 'I've been there'. I'm not sure I do care much about looking or sounding weak, I don't think I appear 'un-weak' to him, he appears a little worried I won't cope very well without him, but I will think about that more and perhaps run it by him too.

I agree about emotional defences. I remained very open during the period I was not sure what was going on, I just knew his behaviours - and I inferred feelings - towards me had changed. I am moving away from that now because I'm not seeing him make many efforts, my defences are definitely creeping up. It's approaching the stage where I think I would be silly to not defend myself as his words and behaviours are still so hurtful.

There might well be a power struggle. I did mention to him that I feel there is a kind of competition between us, and I'm not sure why or how, He denied it, but then in a later conversation he said he recalled an change between us very early on in our relationship, maybe a year in or so, where I said something that to him felt like I was saying I was better than him. I remember the conversation and very soon after I realised how he felt about it I apologised because it was a silly joke gone wrong (maybe I made that joke because I felt inferior? if so, where did that come from etc, we can always chase the tail on that one). He said that stuck with him and he thinks that fed into some of the ways he has been with me since (like for example, he hardly complements me or congratulates me on things I have done well, or if we dress up to go out). This exchange was maybe 8 or 9 years ago, so I feel a big SIGH coming on when I think of it because it feels like rough justice to be held account to something I did nearly ten years ago before everything we built up together. But at least he could identify it and even the source. I don't feel competition with him. He very much values work and I value family far more, so for me we wouldn't be competing on the same scale.

You talk about pride a lot. I am only now thinking about reconnecting with mine. I have been very humble until very recently. I didn't think beating my own chest would help much. But I became aware that I was doing myself a disservice to not think about the positives that I have brought, actually. If he is seeing nothing great in me and I join him in that, where am I? I'm closing that chapter. If we do eventually part proper, I don't intend to be a broken woman. I'll need to have all my wits and bits about me for my children.

No betrayal, except that he would feel betrayed by my words, which is fair enough and something I have considered.

I can't account for my apparent detachment from feelings or sympathy in my posts. I do empathise with him, but all of my feelings can't be for him, and our relationship can't be all about tending to him, there are 4 other people in our family, and honestly I need some energy for myself, too. I'm not sure how now would demonstrate feelings on here, but as I say, I mainly held it together after the initial shock. I do think that is a very womanly trait and one I've seen a lot in my family.

As I do have emotions I will have to say I don't see how I can feel pride about a lack of them. I'm not with you on that one.

To my mind he has launched the wrecking ball in the direction of our family, so yes, I feel a growing sense of derision for him, as I would do if it were say someone completely different on the outside of our family wishing to do us harm. But you know, that third party owes me nothing, actually my partner made me promises and took on the responsibility of kids with me, so maybe I should feel it more keenly that it is him and not some random.

I am quite pragmatic. I tend to speak once I have thought when it comes to serious issues. I'm not sure that is incongruous with a relationship. He is very much aware that I love(d) him, that's not a question he has. He does not think I have too few feelings for him. To my mind he feels safer now that it's clear he has fewer for me than I have for him. He strove to reach that position. That is sad. I told him I missed being in a loving relationship. He says he does not (as he thinks he sucks at them).

I'm bad with songs, I only listen to the chorus really.

There certainly are blanks, ten years worth of relationship, you don't want a run down of that!

Thanks!

OP posts:
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