Relationship with high-functioning Asperger's guy

[idrinkandiknowthings]

Hiya

I've been approached by a guy on a dating site and we've been messaging for a week. He is absolutely hilarious, has me in stitches.

He's told me that he's HFA. Does anyone have any experience of dating someone with HFA? We've arranged to meet at the end of the month. Obviously, it's very early days.

Ta!!

So DH would agree with the above but he also understands eg the upset I feel on my mother’s death anniversary, while as you said, it can’t change anything or won’t bring her back, is equally an emotion I don’t have control over. I cannot NOT be upset at the memory of my mother’s death, or the image of the last time I saw her intubated in the ICU. So he’s happy to sit alongside me in my grief even if some of it probably does seem quite irrational to him. (My mother died a few years ago). Last year for instance on my mother’s death anniversary I told him to take over all parenting for the day which he did and that when the kids were in bed I wanted to drink her favourite cocktail and remember funny stories. He would never have suggested these on his own, but he was more than happy to do this on that day.

And yes like the PP he doesn’t discuss emotions endlessly. Or at all. Our relationship has therefore always been straightforward. We met, we were friends, I fancied him, asked him out, he said, let me think about it. We stayed friends. One day he said to me that he thought it would be a good idea if we got married when we were older. I said, okay and he kissed me. It was all fairly straightforward. We were barely 21 when we met, so not only is there not another version of DH that I know, but this is pretty much the same version I fell in love with. And he’s still the same- kind, loyal, ferociously clever with a dry sense of humour. This may not be romantic and I recognise that our relationship and it’s timbre is very different to ones you see on screen or that of our friends with all its ups and downs but it’s worked for us for many many years.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

could not access his emotions at all

I'm genuinely curious about what phrases like this actually mean. I see similar quite a lot in these threads, and it puzzles me, because from my perspective it's not so much a case of not being able to access emotions, as NT people not realising that autistic thought processes are entirely different, and quite frequently we simply do not have any emotions to access, rather than being unable to.

The only way I can think of describing my own thought process is that I am ruthlessly pragmatic, so I find NT people ridiculously over-emotional. The phrase 'no point crying over spilt milk' resonates so much with me, which is why, although I am completely able to understand hurt and upset, and the need to express it, I really do not understand why NT people get maudlin about things and linger in misery when whatever caused it is in the past. Emotions and emotional responses have absolutely no impact on, or ability to alter events, so what is the point? Likewise, romance, sentimentality, people carrying on as if their world is destroyed when a celebrity they have never met and doesn't know they even exist dies, etc etc

I used to constantly get asked by my Ex 'what are you thinking?' and such. As someone who doesn't do dishonesty, lies, or game-playing, I'd simply respond with absolute integrity - "nothing", or
'I'm not. I don't have any thoughts, it's not something I've given any thought to". This honesty used to incense them for some reason. It's as if there are stock answers, responses, or emotions that I'm supposed to feel and relay on command. It's bizarre and infuriating, almost as if I'm not permitted to feel the way I do, or honestly have no feelings about something that I couldn't care less about.

This constant need of some NT's to forever be discussing 'emotions', thoughts, feelings etc within a relationship is enormously wearing. Most autistics are very much 'WYSIWYG', there's really no need to ask things like 'what are you thinking?'. It just antagonises us when you don't get the response you are expecting and throw your toys out of the pram.

All the 'NT' behaviour you're describing seems to be what is normally attributed to teenage girls and football fans... not the general population...

The interesting thing though isn't that autistic people (the ones I've met anyway, every autistic person is different) don't not have emotions. They just have trouble identifying them and always have a 'rational reason'. Or have a lot of emotion over very very specific things and none at all for anything else...

Also to add - I don't have an instinctive understanding of people - but I have observed and read enough to able to predict why they are doing what they do. As in the reason for the emotion. It still doesn't really make sense to me but I know why it makes sense to them

*not autistic btw but have adhd

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria I recognise a lot of what you describe... I hear you.

OP I wouldn't write off this chap before meeting just because he is ND. You might get along really well.

Our own experience colours our advice, inevitably.

I was with someone for 15 years who is very probably not neurotypical. It was very, very hard. I felt often like I was explaining something to a non-native speaker - usually emotions, feelings, other people's possible motivations and intentions. I felt so ... alone.

I would (I think) struggle to have another relationship with someone with ASD because of the way I am and the way I relate to others, and what I need from a relationship.

It's all about whether you like him, and whether he could meet your needs and you his, OP. Good luck.

All the 'NT' behaviour you're describing seems to be what is normally attributed to teenage girls and football fans... not the general population...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but you think romance and sentimentality are the preserve of football fans and teenage girls?

I see it all the time in pretty much every adult I know. I'd say they're pretty typical behaviours in most people and perfectly common in the general public, even though I don't understand the rationale behind them myself.

Or have a lot of emotion over very very specific things and none at all for anything else...

That's fair. I think what puzzles a lot of NT people is that many autistic people, myself included, honestly give no thought to a lot of things that are fundamentally important to NT people. I/we simply don't care due total disinterest, so it must be a bit confusing when we either express no opinion, or more accurately can't express an opinion or articulate a response, because the subject matter is of so little consequence that it doesn't merit any thought.

Ask or engage me on a subject or topic I'm interested in and I'll happily talk to you all day about it, in as much detail as you like, and articulate very specifically how I feel about any aspect of it, what exactly it is that holds my interest etc. Ask me about something I have no interest in and you'll get a blank stare and a shrug of the shoulders. It's not ignorance or an inability to articulate, it's just an honest reflection of how indifferent I am to the matter in question. It's the same with 'what are you thinking' questions about relationship matters that are obviously important to the other party but are wholly unimportant to me.

I can't feign interest in things I find unimportant, hence my confusion when someone asks if I want to hold their baby. No, if I wanted to hold your baby I'd have asked. Why would you assume I'd want to anyway? It's not my baby, and if you know me well enough to trust me to hold your child then you also know me well enough to know that I actively dislike children. It's when people take offence at things like this that baffles and upsets me. Am I not permitted to not want to hold your baby? It's almost as if I'm viewed as lesser or somehow inhuman simply because I might not think or feel what NT people assume that all others do. It's the same with the 'emotions' thing. It doesn't matter if you believe it's a perfectly normal thing that 'all' relationships feature, if it's not something that I consider a component part then there's no point in asking me to express my thoughts on it, because there are no thoughts to express.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX wow that is a really interesting and erudite post. That is exactly what I felt when talking to my ND ex but from the other side: "what do you mean you have no thoughts and feelings?! How can you not on such an important (to me) everyday issue?!? And is exactly why I found the relationship very heavy going. Thanks for your insight.

We were fundamentally incompatible due to different social and emotional needs and ways of relating...

@Aalvarino

I totally get why ND people must be murder to live with for some NT's. Like I said, my Ex bombarded (well, it felt like it) me with 'what are you thinking?' type questions on matters that where wholly unimportant to me, often flew into a rage/huff when I gave an honest answer, which I accept must have been disappointing and looked more like a non-answer most of the time, then of course I would feel terrible afterwards like I'd really hurt someone I cared about just by honestly trying my best to engage with them.

There were things about me that I'm sure would drive most people up the wall. I'm one of the 'a place for everything, and everything in it's place' types. I have a pathological hatred for anything I view as clutter, including ornaments, pictures, anything hung on walls, houseplants, bric-a-brac, soft furnishings, greetings cards, so on and so forth. I can't have any of this stuff that I regard as pointless tat anywhere in my home, so that used to be an endless source of strife as well. There are reasons for this that go beyond simple taste and dislike. Like a lot of autistic people I'm prone to obsession, collecting, single-minded focus etc, but it really became a problem when I was ill a long time ago, descended into OCD, and for that reason its something that I am absolutely unwilling to compromise on because I have no intention of ever lapsing back into the habits I developed back then. And I'm also a neat/cleanliness freak when it comes to my living space, which, again, I accept must be really difficult to live with if the other party isn't the same way inclined.

Why my relationship works is because we don't live together, have no plans to, and I don't get asked what I perceive to be pointless, irritating questions about 'emotional' crap. Funnily enough, my partner is messy, bordering on hoarder, and their house is full of the sort of stuff that drives me up the wall. But I don't care because it's not my house, and I find this 'quirk' one of the most endearing things about them.

I think it's interesting how, for me at least, I've come to realise that it really isn't as simple as NT + ND = a nightmare relationship. It absolutely can work, it just needs the right type of NT who understands ND's to a point, and doesn't expect things ND's are incapable of. Similarly, I can accept that there are things my partner absolutely needs that I don't, but the difference is I am capable of and more than happy to provide them, because those requirements are totally different to those expected by my Ex, which I found myself totally unable to meet.

I can't feign interest in things I find unimportant, hence my confusion when someone asks if I want to hold their baby.

This is a problem in my relationship with my husband with asd. If something doesn't interest him he doesn't give a shit even if it is important to me or the kids. It's interesting to see someone else with asd articulate the fact that they only care about the things about things that interest them and nothing else.

I also find it interesting that people's offence at your lack of interest upsets you. You don't care about things that are important to them and stare at them blankly, do you want people to only talk to you about things that interest you?

Most NT people do things they aren't crazy about for people that they care about, cooing over their baby etc because it is important to the other person and making the other person happy is important when you care about someone.

. You don't care about things that are important to them and stare at them blankly, do you want people to only talk to you about things that interest you?

This one's a bit of a dichotomy.

"do you want people to only talk to you about things that interest you?"

Well, frankly, yes, unless they are willing to accept that they might get a response that makes them uncomfortable, or at least, accepting of the fact that the interaction might not go they way it is typically expected to by NT people.

"I also find it interesting that people's offence at your lack of interest upsets you"

This is the kickback. As I've said, I can't fake it. It's not possible. I'm just being who I am, doing what is perfectly normal and typical for me, so yes, I do get upset sometimes when people imply that I'm 'wrong', 'stupid', 'ignorant', or 'offensive', simply because I see the world totally differently to them and I don't necessarily value the same things or share their interests/concerns/ideas.

Think about how you would feel if people reacted to you in a way that you would completely understand and comprehend if you had gone out of your way to be offensive, only you've done no such thing, acted in good faith, and done nothing more than express what you genuinely feel.

You can't win, you come out the bad one no matter what. Keep your mouth shut and say nothing because you feel nothing you're 'emotionally stunted, repressed, inarticulate, obstructive, incapable of being normal' (that last one IS really offensive). You say what you really feel because you, like most ND people, are inherently and fundamentally honest, don't do deceit, don't play games, and have a strong sense of right and wrong, and you're painted as 'offensive, inappropriate, insensitive, loud mouthed, lacking in tact' and so on.

Once again, we're back at 'bloody neurotypicals' and all their infuriating peccadilloes. It's not a one way street.

Sorry to go on at length, but on further contemplation there are a few other things that occur to me -

This is a problem in my relationship with my husband with asd. If something doesn't interest him he doesn't give a shit even if it is important to me or the kids. It's interesting to see someone else with asd articulate the fact that they only care about the things about things that interest them and nothing else.

As you can imagine, this was also an enormous bone of contention between me and my Ex. They are very family orientated, I am not. Absolutely not in fact. I'm practically NC with my own immediate family, and while I grew to like some aspects of the in-laws, on the whole they just infuriated me for the exact same reasons that I went NC with mine. Obviously I tried to make the effort for my Ex's sake to participate and get along, I'm not a total monster, I do understand the need to compromise and make sacrifices to an extent, but ultimately it isn't genuine or heartfelt, so there's only so long I can keep the pretence up. Eventually I had to go NC with the in-laws as well, for the sake of my own health. The stress of faking a 'normal' relationship, that was anything but for me, was just too much.

Most NT people do things they aren't crazy about for people that they care about, cooing over their baby etc because it is important to the other person and making the other person happy is important when you care about someone

And similarly to the passage above, it's this 'faking it' which is enormously draining for a lot of ND's. Can we do it? Sure, to an extent and some of us more convincingly than others, but often it is an enormous emotional strain and inside every sense we have is screaming at us to run for our life and extricate ourselves from an enormously uncomfortable situation. I could convincingly coo about your baby to a point, but expect me to do it indefinitely or on demand and you are pushing all the wrong buttons and there will inevitably be a meltdown/outburst.

@OuiOuiKitty

That would really make me think too. If they only care about things that interest them and nothing else, I'd wonder why are they even with me?

I'd be wondering if I was being used for regular sex or the status of having a family.

I'd be wondering if I was being used for regular sex or the status of having a family

I'm not going to lie, this is a part of it. Not the family bit, I have no interest in children or parenthood whatsoever, but the sex part, yes.

After all, what are relationships if they are not a reciprocal agreement? People enter relationships because they find them mutually beneficial. Presumably, if a relationship is working for you, you are getting what you need out of it. Is it really all that significant what, exactly, the other party is getting out of it in return?

It's perfectly possible to love, cherish, and care for someone wholeheartedly without wanting to have children with them, live with them, listen to them drone on endlessly about things you couldn't give a monkey's chuff about, etc.

"I'm not going to lie this is part of it...."

Interesting insight and helping with understanding your viewpoint.

Do you recognise that you could come across as cold to someone else in a relationship with you and would you care?

Genuine question as am dealing with a similar person and would be good to know.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

All the 'NT' behaviour you're describing seems to be what is normally attributed to teenage girls and football fans... not the general population...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but you think romance and sentimentality are the preserve of football fans and teenage girls?

I see it all the time in pretty much every adult I know. I'd say they're pretty typical behaviours in most people and perfectly common in the general public, even though I don't understand the rationale behind them myself.

Or have a lot of emotion over very very specific things and none at all for anything else...

That's fair. I think what puzzles a lot of NT people is that many autistic people, myself included, honestly give no thought to a lot of things that are fundamentally important to NT people. I/we simply don't care due total disinterest, so it must be a bit confusing when we either express no opinion, or more accurately can't express an opinion or articulate a response, because the subject matter is of so little consequence that it doesn't merit any thought.

Ask or engage me on a subject or topic I'm interested in and I'll happily talk to you all day about it, in as much detail as you like, and articulate very specifically how I feel about any aspect of it, what exactly it is that holds my interest etc. Ask me about something I have no interest in and you'll get a blank stare and a shrug of the shoulders. It's not ignorance or an inability to articulate, it's just an honest reflection of how indifferent I am to the matter in question. It's the same with 'what are you thinking' questions about relationship matters that are obviously important to the other party but are wholly unimportant to me.

I can't feign interest in things I find unimportant, hence my confusion when someone asks if I want to hold their baby. No, if I wanted to hold your baby I'd have asked. Why would you assume I'd want to anyway? It's not my baby, and if you know me well enough to trust me to hold your child then you also know me well enough to know that I actively dislike children. It's when people take offence at things like this that baffles and upsets me. Am I not permitted to not want to hold your baby? It's almost as if I'm viewed as lesser or somehow inhuman simply because I might not think or feel what NT people assume that all others do. It's the same with the 'emotions' thing. It doesn't matter if you believe it's a perfectly normal thing that 'all' relationships feature, if it's not something that I consider a component part then there's no point in asking me to express my thoughts on it, because there are no thoughts to express.

Maybe I just hang out with too many ‘rational’ people who all get annoyed at sentimental things 😂 ‘human interest’ stories can fuck right off

The crux is though a lot of human ‘moral’ foundations rely on things that are emotional . ‘All human life is equally valuable’. Not true, in hard rational terms a child is more replaceable than a fully grown adult (into which resources etc have been invested). An elderly adult is of less use than a fit, working one. Discussion like these came up when I used to study anthropology and tribes in food-deprived areas decide whom to prioritise for food (to get the best chance of them hunting). In a casual conversation (outside of academia) this discussion would get me shot except with my autistic friends ….

Also the other thing is the cyclical dependency (sorry - don’t know correct word)?

You say you don’t care about certain things and don’t see why NT’s do. Fine.
But equally NT’s have the same right.
So you do something that ‘upsets’ NT’s.
They do something that ‘upsets’ you.
Whose right to not be upset stands?

I’ve spent lots and lots of time thinking about this and can’t really come up with any answers

Once you’ve met one person with Austin you’ve met one person with autism.

I have two people with ASD in my family - one doesn’t like physical contact, one would hug you all day.
The main areas that are likely to be similar is that nuance and hinting, social norms will likely be difficult. You need to be okay having very direct communication between you about what you need from them.
They may get overwhelmed by the environment or emotions. That’s hard if you always have to be the “okay one” so I refer back to the first point about communicating clearly what you need.
There are many terrible partners with an ASD diagnosis and many great ones. Try if you can, to assess the relationship on its own merits.

I honestly think we are all somewhere on this spectrum. There are lots of things that matter in a relationship and all you can do is give him a whirl with an open mind. If it doesn't work, so be it.

@ChaBishkoot To me, how you and your DH got together sounds utterly romantic. Honest, kind and straightforward. Can you tell I'm autistic ?

When reading @XDownwiththissortofthingX 's posts, I would keep in mind what a PP said, that if you've met one autistic person, you've met one. I absolutely recognise the frustration at feeling way more rational and able to see facts for facts than most people. But I also know that I am very emotional; I just don't express it how most NTs would.

My parents were/are the epitome of "we don't do emotions and are the only rational people in the room". But with distance I can see our whole house was ruled by emotions, ie meltdowns, overwhelm and managing a house full of raging but unrecognised neurodiversity. This came with feelings of deep love for 'special interests' (hate that phrase, so NT focussed) and the world, while at the same time feeling rejected by/lonely in it.

These strong emotions were not understood and named. Instead they were treated like forces of nature that fell out of the sky that none of us had any control over. Collectively, we (parents and children alike) coped through substance abuse, horrible relationships, no verbal communication for long periods of time, and just general low self esteem.

One thing I've learned over the years is that recognising and naming emotions and needs in yourself and others is the basis for beautiful communication across differences, including neurodiversity. That yes, technically in a way I might not 'care' about other people's feelings in the way that NTs seem to do but in practice other people's needs and thoughts do matter, simply because we are all on this planet (or in this house) together and have an impact on each other.

I've also learned - from raising my autistic children - that I can usually find something in their special interest that I can relate to and connect to them with. So although I have no interest in talking about the intricacies of Minecraft building blocks 24/7 and would never entertain that kind of conversation for longer than a few sentences, I love nature and stories, so can play Minecraft with them for a long time if I focus on those things.

If that sounds too cold and calculated, I suspect that NTs come to their 'caring' ways of doing things from similarly self-centered positions, but just don't recognise their motivations as well as (some) ND people do. As a PP said, lots of people won't love cooing over an unfamiliar baby, but we do it because we know that it makes the other person feel good and that helps us to keep up a positive relationship.

lots of people won't love cooing over an unfamiliar baby, but we do it because we know that it makes the other person feel good and that helps us to keep up a positive relationship.

This didn't come out right. I actually love cuddling babies. But if I didn't know the baby, I would be very aware of the fact that I am taking something from that interaction that I love (so fuzzy) and would be quite confused if someone expected me to actually feel lots of things for this particular child.

I had to walk away from my relationship with my HFA guy. He had quirky obsessions, and that's really common, but they'd be super intense for a few months then move onto something else. The problem was that, without fail, they ALL came first, above me. And it's not like other hobbies where I could try to show an interest (e.g. my partner now likes gaming and I showed an interest and ended up playing too!!) because he'd change his focus just as soon as I got into it.

It just wasn't working. That's not to say it wouldn't work for you, but my best advice is to take it slowly while reading up about it, including threads on here.

From what I've read from Tony Attwood, NT/ND marriages are much more likely to be successful if the two people acknowledge they are different from each other and have different needs, and are both willing to communicate and to learn what the other person needs.

My ex also changed from before to after marriage. Despite our oldest being diagnosed autistic and a strong question mark over the youngest, he refuses point blank to conceive that he might be autistic or that he might benefit from tuition on how to handle an intimate relationship. He literally told me that he didn't have to listen to a thing I said and meant it and indeed, didn't listen even when it came down to something as basic as You Have To Lock Your Door At Night In A City and Just Because You Married, You Don't Stop Cleaning Your Teeth. Some situations were directly life-threatening and he still wouldn't listen, but I won't go into those.

Had he been willing to engage in autism-related communication courses then things would have been a lot more successful, because I really did like and love him and adjusted to some things, and I know he loved me. Sort of. Personally I really can't understand loving a life-partner if you truly believe you don't have to listen to what they say.

Yeah it becomes impossible for sure if the person refuses to go for a diagnosis or even discuss the issue :(

So I guess what I was going to say is, your guy on the dating site clearly knows that he's ND. From here it depends on the click when you meet. Personally I'd say that it's a good idea to read up a bit on autism (tony Attwood seems highly respected) and common traits, and at some point have a conversation with the guy about how he sees his autism affecting relationships with NTs.

If you really like him then go for it, but do a bit of research on what the challenges might be and decide if it's something you want. My best advice: Use your head as well as your heart (which goes for any relationship, but there are extra challenges with NT/ ND people)

*"do you want people to only talk to you about things that interest you?"

Well, frankly, yes, unless they are willing to accept that they might get a response that makes them uncomfortable, or at least, accepting of the fact that the interaction might not go they way it is typically expected to by NT people.*

This is interesting. In my house now we have a teen and an almost teen and they are old enough now to make up their own opinion of dh. They can see plain as day that he isn't interested in most of the things that are important to them so they don't involve him. We have become somewhat of a threesome me and the kids. They come to me with everything and as a result we are all really close, we share a lot of jokes and a lot of laughs and also the hard bit of being of a teen. They think their dad is boring, they find his lack of opinions on topics boring, the way he stares blankly instead of cracking a joke or sharing an insight boring, his monologues on the topics that do interest him boring. Dh has expressed that this makes him feel on the outside of our family but I don't know how to fix this?

He can't or won't show an interest in 95% of their lives, they can see this so don't want to share their lives with someone who isn't interested. I can't force them to feel something they don't, I have tried to get them to tell dh certain things, he blank stares and they back away, he feels hurt, they feel hurt. I've tried explaining to them that he cares he just shows it differently but at this point they just roll their eyes at me, they clearly don't believe me.

There doesn't seem to me to be a solution where everyone feels cared for and appreciated. Everybody is hurting in someway.

That sounds complicated @OuiOuiKitty but one thing that jumps out is that I doubt your OH is really “high functioning”.