June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@CeciledeVolanges thank you. She’s just horrible. Played a similar trick yesterday.

Glad you saw your grandparents. That’s a positive. Keep away from your mother. Just remember how she’s damaged you. Use this place as somewhere for support until you see your therapist.

Thanks both. When I say it ended on good terms, I mean it began with my GM very angry with me and almost refusing to talk, telling me she would have to communicate to my mother that I'd been there, and ended with her saying she wouldn't say anything, she thought it was good that I was developing an independent life and she thought I needed it! She also said things like "if you ever ask [mother] something she always replies with how it affects her". It's just that in the course of the conversation she said a number of things that I now feel incredibly guilty about. (Sorry but) I will write more later. They didn't finish by trying to hook me in though, they were more round to my point of view. Surprisingly, my DGF was on my side from the start! I was expecting the other way round. He was also very proud of me for getting sober, which was nice.

Although, they did both say "she's changed" and I said "why?" as this is the second time I've cut contact and she didn't change at all the first time. They said "you've taught her a lesson" and I said I would believe it when I saw it. I suspect she is feeling differently this time because she can't fuck off and live with my sister as sister is in a different country! They also said she had changed, but that she was never going to change. I have no idea who is right here honestly.
So, things I'm feeling guilty about:

1. My mother having been around there every day in tears telling them that I was saying terrible things about her (including to the police);
2. My mother took me leaving out on them. They blame me for this and think I've split the family. I've basically left my DGM alone to cope with her bullying husband and abusive elder daughter (although because of dissociation etc, I assume, I can't remember much clearly about the awful things she apparently did);
3. Family cat is dying. We've had the cat for ten years and I knew I probably wouldn't see him again but it's a huge blow. I haven't ever got to say goodbye to a family pet or even my own horse before they were put to sleep. Crying as I write this one;
4. My other grandmother is in the hospital with a heart condition and my DGM thinks it's because of the stress of me staying with her while drinking, so I might have killed my own grandmother;
5. Because I changed my number and wasn't in touch for several months, my DGM thought I had forgotten about them (I hadn't, I just knew it would cause a huge row if my mum found out and was pretty fragile myself at the time). She also tried to text me to my old number and it was returned .
6. Haven't completed my professional qualification yet and I'm still signed off, my DGM said she didn't think it would ever happen (have been in process of doing it for years).

I'm sure there was more, but this is quite enough to be going on with! The main good thing is I found out my parents aren't going to be living in the same city as I am. And apparently they are getting on well, I was expecting to have caused a final split and divorce but maybe it's thrown them together. Sorry, just feeling like absolute shit today, about myself. It's lonely, but easy to feel I'm in the right when I'm alone in my flat talking to you or a friend or a therapist. When I'm confronted by a member of the family I've torn apart it's much harder.

Wow, @CeciledeVolanges, your DGM has really done a number on you. Most of the list of things you feel guilty about are outside your control- and for her to tell you you've caused your other GMs health issues is pretty horrible.

It doesn't sound like there was much support coming from them, just a load of FOG. Please stay strong, you have done so well this far dealing with the alcohol issues and just keeping going. You are so young and have so much life left to live for you, not for other people. So what if it takes you a while to get a qualification? With the obstacles being thrown at you it's no bloody wonder. Take whatever the "usual" amount of time to pass it and triple or quadruple it. It will still get done. I am so angry at the attempt to keep you down and use dementor like skills to suck any remaining joy or positivity from you. They and your parents can see you are moving away from their control and this is designed to make you doubt your own abilities and pull you back in again to rely on them.

The part about making my other grandmother ill actually rang quite true, there's nothing there I hadn't been thinking to myself already. I think it's my mother who has done a number on my DGM. Of course I've said terrible things about her. She's done terrible things. At least, I think.

Sorry, I'm making this all about me again.

It might help to start looking at the facts. Did your GM have health issues before you lived with her? I've been on these boards for a while so I think it's quite some time since you lived with her, would that be right? Also, existing health issues plus age would unfortunately naturally mean a deterioration normally. Please don't let yourself sink into this guilt trip. Your mother made the choice to go and annoy your GPs. I really liked the boat rocking analogy earlier in the thread. They need you to take your place back on the boat cos they are having to work harder as she is jumping up and down more. They think if you do as you are told then they won't have to listen to it any more from your DM so problem solved. Don't wait until your mid 40s/50s like the rest of us on this thread seem to have. You have got clarity on the situation really early on.

@CeciledeVolanges
It's OK to post on a thread that is specifically here for support. You are not making it all about you. I have read many of your posts and you need to believe that you are brave and strong and doing well. Please have faith in yourself. I am pleased to hear your parents will not be in the same city soon. At least then the risk of accidental sightings and being triggered by them goes down a lot. Please don’t crack and get in touch – it will only ever bring you down again.

Can I say - I truly don’t think your GM has behaved at all well here. I don’t know what her reasons for saying some of these things are but it’s not in your best interests. It’s selfish and unkind, though I suspect you can't see that yet.

Here's some other perspectives:
My mother having been around there every day in tears telling them that I was saying terrible things about her. Firstly, the terrible things are true aren’t they? So your mother is just feeling guilty or angry to be caught out. You are NOT responsible for her tears – she wouldn’t need to cry if she’d been a good person. Why your GM felt the need to tell you this is worth considering too. It was unnecessary.

My mother took me leaving out on them. Your mother is responsible for her behaviour, NOT YOU. You did what you needed to get well and safe. No one should do things that make them ill and distressed in order to protect another person from someone else's actions, especially when the person taking it out of them is your mother, their daughter.

DGM” thinks it's because of the stress of me staying with her while drinking, so I might have killed my own grandmother

Bloody hell that is awful! Did she actually say that you may have killed her or is that you projecting? Because it's a terrible to thing to say. Your other GM almost certainly has conditions that would have deteriorated in any event. Even IF you staying there did make her life difficult at the time, you need to forgive yourself for that. You know there were reasons why you were self-medicating with alcohol. If you can, now is the time to express your remorse to other GM (I don’t know what sort of relationship you have with her?) and put that behind you.

My DGM thought I had forgotten about them That’s sounds very drama queen behaviour. It’s the sort of thing a child would say.! She knew why you were not in touch and that you would not ‘forget them’. It’s pure guilt trip^

I haven't completed my professional qualification yet and I'm still signed off, my DGM said she didn't think it would ever happen.

Again – what is the point of saying this other than to make you feel bad about yourself? Even if you don’t ever finish, you gave it a good shot under extraordinary circumstances. Far more likely is you will return to your studies and get there, as you seem very enthusiastic about it the subject and determined despite your struggles. So what if it takes a while? You have no need to compare yourself to anyone else, just be proud of what you can achieve given all the other shit in your life mostly thrown at you by people who should just love and support you.

I know you want to retain contact with your grandparents but I really suggest you talk to your therapist about this when you can, as frankly your (not very D) GM comes across as someone you either need to set lots of boundaries with, or not to see at all. You need people in your life who are encouraging, supportive and not out to made you feel guilty or bad about yourself.

PS: Sorry about the cat. That’s thought. My lovely boy died when living with the ‘foster parents’ we’d left him with when we moved abroad, and they didn’t even tell me at the time. I was so angry.

Take care Cecile

Oh and @Gherkinbee is right it was absolutely an attempt to keep you down and use dementor like skills to suck any remaining joy or positivity from you

Because yes ....
They and your parents can see you are moving away from their control and this is designed to make you doubt your own abilities and pull you back in again to rely on them

Hello all, I've been lurking for a while and your posts have helped me every time I've started to think I've imagined being the scapegoat in my family. I've been low contact with my mum for 6 weeks now after a huge argument, and no contact with my sister for the same time. I know I need counselling and it will be a long road, but I have a question (or two) for those who are further along.

Can people like me ever be happy? Or should I just accept that survival is the best that I can hope for?

I'm looking for honest answers really. I don't want to waste my life aiming for a full and fulfilling life if I'm too damaged to ever get close to anything like that. It might be better to work towards 'mostly okay'.

For me, it probably is in the mostly okay arena. I haven't had a lot of counseling but have worked through stuff myself, using a lot of the links are resources on here. It's like going from having a massive thunderbolt and lightning constant black cloud over me to a smallish cloud of light drizzle with a lot more sunny spells. The relentless fear and angst has stopped. And the "noise". This thread has helped me so much over the last 8 years or so. Just having other people who get it and understand. A major part is the grieving for the parents/siblings you never had. And realising yours will never ever change. The pandemic presented a massive relief in terms of enforced physical distance. I am also the scapegoat and someone on here had put links to Tracy Principi podcasts. That has been the thing that has helped me the most recently. Just hearing someone saying it out loud seems more powerful than reading about it. Particularly her stuff about siblings, they were basically living in a completely different family to me. So that is why they do not understand and will never ever see what I have been through. So that has allowed me to stop feeling sad about it and accept they had a different family.

@Gherkinbee Thank you so much. I'm sorry you are a scapegoat too. I think I will be able to find peace with being mostly okay. I'm not sure what that will look like yet - I'm very much still in the grieving stage.

I've been listening to Tracy Principi's podcasts too. It's been really helpful. I needed to hear someone say that my family will never change, and that their truth will always be different to mine. Have you joined her FB group?

@marplemead, no I'm not on Facebook but if I were I would probably join her group, just for another source of information.

Another really hard thing was my DGM was coming out with a huge amount of lies that my mother has obviously told her and she's believed. These will be circulating around her friends, and my friends (via my sister) and probably the university as well. It's bad enough when she's determining my reality, but when she's determining how everyone else sees me as well, it's worse. Sorry, now going to respond to someone else...

Online therapy over lockdown was a massive turning point. I'm st the point of being happy, when I look back it's more in a wistful, wouldn't it have been nice to have had a normal background kind of way. Therapy took my anger away and thst alone was huge in helping me move forward.

@Gherkinbee and @Gerwurtztraminer thank you so much for your replies, still reading and digesting.

@marplemead I do know people who have come from backgrounds like ours and are truly happy and at peace. As Gherkin (I think) said, there's also loads you can do on your own, counselling is likely to help but don't think you can't be happy or progress towards it if you can't get any at the moment. The Freedom Programme is a good place to start, maybe, although aimed at abused wives.

Evening all.

I've been doing a bit of reading (not sure why). Does anyone else read an exact description of themselves here: www.lovepanky.com/my-life/relationships/daughter-of-a-narcissistic-mother
and here www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201802/daughters-narcissistic-mothers ?
In some ways it's reassuring but in other ways it does make me feel hopeless, and permanently broken. Although as some have pointed out upthread I'm a bit younger than some, I've mostly realised what's wrong because my life is just in ruins. And so am I.

Hi @CeciledeVolanges, I am sorry you are feeling like this tonight. I think most of us will hit the majority of the bullet points there. It's raw and it's horrible to realise. But it's a starting point to say "I'm not doing this any more". You have already made so many steps forward and you are still further forward than you were. You have your own place. You've reduced contact. You have your job (and I'm not even going to mention the sick leave because many people are off sick a lot lot longer for a lot lot less). You still have your ambitions for study. You're not a husk yet! You have a load of positives. You come across as very eloquent, considered and mature in your approach. You might think you are all of those things in those articles, but look back to where you were and where you are now. There is so much potential for where you can get to. I really hope you can get an appointment with your therapist, even if it means really paring back your budget and going value beans on value toast for the rest of the month. Prioritise your mental health.

Actually I read these with a different perspective, possibly because now being in my 50's I simply have a longer and more optimistic view. I see these articles as about offering insight and hope. Because without understanding what caused trauma, how can we effectively address it? Especially when talking about narcissistic parents, where the nature of the behaviour is often so insidious, hard to recognise as toxic and often comes disguised as love, caring and concern. Giving it a name and describing the impact is a start on the road to understanding them and ultimately yourself.

As one of the articles says, recovery takes time and effort. But it is entirely possible. Even after the most traumatic of childhoods people do go on to lead happy, fulfilled lives. Yes there may be lasting damage we continue to deal with all our lives and there will be times we have bad patches and need help. This is probably one of those times for you? Whilst I can see you are in a dark place thinking your life is in ruins, but from all you have posted before I don't think that is the case, you just need to find a way to accept and reconcile with your past and build a new life.

I think you said you can't afford a therapist session this month but is there someone else you can reach out to for support? You sound very fatalistic at the moment but I really believe life is not set in stone and no-one so irredeemably broken they can't be helped. Hopefully some advice and support to help see you can change this would get you back on your feet again.

And @Gherkinbee got there first and said all I meant to say too!

@Gherkinbee and @Gerwurtztraminer thank you so much for your replies! I'm already essentially on value beans and toast (or my equivalent, I'm eating my way through my Brexit stockpile which is heavy on pasta and tinned tomatoes) but I do get paid next week and my NHS psychiatrist has changed my appointment to earlier so at least I might get back to work properly soon. It's more my mood and relationships. I know on paper I'm actually not doing too badly - I haven't lost my home, my job - yet - or some friends or family, but my mood is up and down like a yo-yo every hour and the lows are so low, I'm struggling with my food and self-harm even though I'm staying sober, I've trashed my reputation and most of all, I'm lonely and most of the time I miss my friends and having a partner. But I'm scared of talking or even spending time with people! A huge part of my personality, and I think a part of my real self not related to people-pleasing, is that I'm very affectionate and I really like people, I think most of them are great. So being very alone and isolated is impacting me hugely, and reading something like that makes me feel like I'll never even be fit to be around friends again. Sorry for complaining so much and it feels like I'm attention-seeking honestly. I just see a lot of people on this thread who are strong, who achieve things, who have families, and I've been through a lot less than most of you, but somehow I have this sad failed alone life.
Anyway, you are all so kind. Sorry, I think I'm still feeling the repercussions of the weekend and basically being told I've wrecked my own family, which I already knew.

@CeciledeVolanges, could you even take a small step and send a text to a friend to catch up? Would that help at all? I mean catch up by text, not have the pressure of actual meet up.

I'm not completely abandoned - I have one lovely friend that I'm supposed to see this week but unfortunately we both have such poor health we have to cancel 3/4 of the time and she often literally can't reply because she's so physically unwell. I do text others but they are busy with work, marriage, children (not that I'm not busy, I just find time for texts) and it sometimes feels worse to reach out and get no reply than just to leave it. My friends are also so brilliant, but often the reason that they are so understanding is that they've been through or are going through something similar, so they will be depressed, or busy, or overwhelmed, or dealing with their own problems. When I used to be in hospital a lot and staff would ask me if I could call a friend, I would also admit that when I'm at my worst I am too ashamed to see anyone. I think it's part of the isolation as well - I'm the same age or older as many of my friends but they have incredibly busy careers and marriages and babies. Not in a comparison way, just I'm not in the same life any more.
On the plus side, I really liked the rain and the thunderstorm today! Reassuring and refreshing after the heatwave and I could see the lightning from my top floor room.

thanks @Makemineamediumone, thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat and @CeciledeVolanges - all wise words as usual. It's great to actually receive some support because it really can feel like I'm an awful person, especially when you see friends faces drop when you say you're taking some space away from family.

I've got my sister screaming at me in all-caps text telling me I'm a horrible, sick, twisted, lying sociopath just because I started to question the dynamic. I wanted a break from being the one who is always in the wrong, to be allowed to get on with looking after my own children and to heal from my childhood trauma. I was the victim of abuse, I was neglected and I was traumatised, it quite serious ways. This is just a fact. It's taken me decades to have the strength to try to address it but I'm doing so now. But my sister, who wasn't even born at the time is calling me a liar.
I wasn't trying to get my mother to atone and I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings (heaven forbid) and I wasn't trying to put myself (as my sister says) in "victim mode"...just to attempt to get to the bottom of a dynamic that was deeply toxic and where I was never given space to express any feelings, my experiences always minimised or invalidated. I felt that if the world and his dog was insisting I be my mothers carer and have her come to live with me then the least I could expect was some respect and kindness, some attempt at good communication on her part.
Instead, as you know, I've just been completely castigated and accused of elder abuse (my mother, as you also know, is not old).
Yet I am starting to wonder if this whole "I have Alzheimer's" thing...this thing with my sister and uncle telling me they think she has early onset dementia or has had a stroke (which, they say, is my fault for upsetting her), is just another tactic to prevent me from ever speaking the truth...does that make sense to anyone here? Like she is feigning illness just at the point where I was trying to raise with her some issues from the past, all of a sudden - bam! - she has "Alzheimer's" and can't string a sentence together. (nothing, as far as can tell, has been diagnosed). Then I'm even more uncaring, even more sociopathic, for abandoning an old (not old) woman with possible Alzheimer's AND during a global pandemic.
For christs sake, all I asked for was a break from the drama and I get instead stuck in some sort of constant episode of Eastenders.