June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@openwaterswimming

thanks *@Makemineamediumone, thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat and @CeciledeVolanges* - all wise words as usual. It's great to actually receive some support because it really can feel like I'm an awful person, especially when you see friends faces drop when you say you're taking some space away from family.

I've got my sister screaming at me in all-caps text telling me I'm a horrible, sick, twisted, lying sociopath just because I started to question the dynamic. I wanted a break from being the one who is always in the wrong, to be allowed to get on with looking after my own children and to heal from my childhood trauma. I was the victim of abuse, I was neglected and I was traumatised, it quite serious ways. This is just a fact. It's taken me decades to have the strength to try to address it but I'm doing so now. But my sister, who wasn't even born at the time is calling me a liar.
I wasn't trying to get my mother to atone and I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings (heaven forbid) and I wasn't trying to put myself (as my sister says) in "victim mode"...just to attempt to get to the bottom of a dynamic that was deeply toxic and where I was never given space to express any feelings, my experiences always minimised or invalidated. I felt that if the world and his dog was insisting I be my mothers carer and have her come to live with me then the least I could expect was some respect and kindness, some attempt at good communication on her part.
Instead, as you know, I've just been completely castigated and accused of elder abuse (my mother, as you also know, is not old).
Yet I am starting to wonder if this whole "I have Alzheimer's" thing...this thing with my sister and uncle telling me they think she has early onset dementia or has had a stroke (which, they say, is my fault for upsetting her), is just another tactic to prevent me from ever speaking the truth...does that make sense to anyone here? Like she is feigning illness just at the point where I was trying to raise with her some issues from the past, all of a sudden - bam! - she has "Alzheimer's" and can't string a sentence together. (nothing, as far as can tell, has been diagnosed). Then I'm even more uncaring, even more sociopathic, for abandoning an old (not old) woman with possible Alzheimer's AND during a global pandemic.
For christs sake, all I asked for was a break from the drama and I get instead stuck in some sort of constant episode of Eastenders.

OK, @openwaterswimming, but "normal" people" aren't your people - we are your people and your base for getting to be with normal people. You're extraordinary as you have survived something outside the norm. I'm not sure how your sister is communicating with you but it might be time for a mute or a temporary block. By the time you get to all caps she is not communicating properly. You both need a break. She is massively deluded and you don't need that sh*t right now, it's actually helping neither of you but you are your primary concern, so get your shield right up. Read back a few posts, someone is saying something incredibly wise about your sibling experiencing a completely different reality. The scapegoat/golden child just exacerbates that. You don't need her right now. Screen her out, please. I'm not sure about Alzheimer's, but hypochondria is something I've experienced from my mother and younger sister (I'm under thirty, my sister is younger). There are so many services so help both. Neither is your job. You are your responsibility. Some posters have said some very helpful things about my paternal grandmother (who is not abusive, but controlling, and some members of my family have accused of killing her), please read those back. Nobody knows what causes Alzheimer's disease, but I know there are a number of presentations. Some are pleasant, some aggressive, some are different to the person as they lived before, some are a magnification. I'm not sure what is supposed to be happening in your situation. Nothing that happens can make it your responsibility. Nothing they say can change who or what or how you are. Please carry that with you. You have a sister and an uncle and nobody is rushing to their side, so it really can't be that serious. What can you do to erect a wall between you and the drama? Who can you block? What can you delete? Can you throw anything away? Can you put any emails to junk or swipe and delete? You never stop caring about your mother, I know. But you need to keep it out of your own life. My mum had a genuine complaint with me and my sister... when we were babies. They will lie. They will manipulate and pretend and ask as much as they can. Can't your sister and uncle rush to her side? I would put up a shield to all of this. You've walked away. You're a valuable person and you have walked away. Never turn back. Let the NHS diagose, let SS take care. Whatever is sticking you in the EastEnders stuff, block, deflect, block again, take a different app. Live your own live.

Also, speak your truth. Don't hesitate. The methods they are using are pathetic. Never stop.

@openwaterswimming, I think you said you are the only one who has recently seen your DM in person? So the flying monkeys haven't but yet have sufficient information to say for definite that your DM has all these health issues? So say they thought she had dementia, why are they believing the (false) nonsense about you instead of just disbelieving all of it? Why pick and choose what evidence of the very little presumably mainly phone contact they have had? As @AttilaTheMeerkat always says, drop the rope. If they think there is something wrong, they can go ahead and contact whoever. Not your job.

Reason I have been on here and posting so much over last couple of weeks is the DM furiously jumping in the corner of the dinghy. Golden child DB big birthday and return of prodigal son. Sis becoming mini narc. Big family meet up ongoing for the entire week. Pressure on to attend with kids and DH.
But I said no. And I've stuck to it. Feeling guilty but so, so pleased I've finally not allowed my own free time to be used up by people who belittle me and my kids.
DM jumping up and down furiously as obviously how does it look if the whole family isn't there? Demanding pics of kids from DH via text, massive triangulation going on but he hasn't sent any.
I am so proud of myself but I couldn't have done it without you ladies on here.
Knowing I am actually a proper grown up and have (shock) free choice to do what I want.
I love my DB and in no way resent him for his golden role. But I've a very funny anecdote which illustrates what my parents value. In their study they have individual pics of us on the wall. Beside his, there is a piece of paper with a sum hand written out on it: salary £x, car £x, bonus £x and a total at the bottom (he is on 6 figures). Like that's how you measure the success of your kids. It just makes me and DH laugh. I wonder if it's still there and if he see it when he is over?

@Gherkinbee well done! You deserve to feel proud of yourself. Of course you don't deserve your DB for his allotted role but that doesn't mean you have to get right up close to him and shove it in your own face. You know the truth and it sounds like you stand up straight on the strength of it, to use an extremely weird and feeble metaphor. Do something amazing for yourself while they are busy fawning over their own fantasy and lies - then keep doing it! You're amazing.

Also - and a lot of eco centricity here - I can match you anecdote to anecdote here. My mother is currently doing a PhD in a subject adjacent to my speciality, I'm on my third Masters as I can't pay to study where I got my first two (my father is of course paying for her degree). She has an email printed out where her supervisors have praised an essay, and pinned it on her wall. I got six prizes at University alone and I have an email of constructive criticism printed alout to read and improve my current work, in my eyeline. They are literally there to teach me and improve me and I have no idea why you would take an email where someone says you've done a good job once and hang it up for ever.
Mind you, my mum is like this. I cut her off before for nine months, then my dad asked me to cat sit and someone knocked on the door one day and it was very obvious from the way she spoke to me that my mother had just been acting as if nothing had changed. It was "oh (name) has told me all about you, I know you are (living and working circumstances), nice to meet you!" I know I'm being a terrible person but that was a little off as she doesn't hesitate to lie and badmouth me when I'm around her?
Anyway, Gherkin, stay strong. I think I'm trying to say don't give her ammunition and while you aren't being used as a hate receptacle do something you love and really treat yourself as the worthwhile person you are.

Also, I know I'm posting a dozen times more frequently than the rest of you! But as a lawyer for a second - what does their will say? Nothing they have written down actually counts. If they die intestate, they may have an undesirable outcome for them. Even more if one dies first and the other has to see a working out of a will that they disagree with!

@CeciledeVolanges, I hear you. It's like a toddler getting a gold star. Erm, okay, pat on head, well done....while the rest of us over achieve.
How are you feeling today, any brighter?

Sorry, just noticing my typos and autocorrects in the previous post. I apologise!

Hope it's ok to emotionally dump some baggage here today.

It's 20 years since my moms death today. She wasn't a great mom, she was hardly a decent parent. In fact she was awful. An addict. She neglected us, I spent my childhood feeling scared hungry and on edge. I'm the eldest of five. I bought my siblings up. One of my earliest memories is of stealing milk off neighbours doorsteps to give to my baby sister. Of being sent to the post office with a forged benefit book age 8, being hurt by strangers in exchange for money that she'd use for drugs. Of feeling so pleased with myself because she was pleased with me. Dark cold nights alone all of us piled into one bed covered in coats to keep warm. I could go on and on but basically I took a lot of abuse so my siblings didn't have to.

In the final 8 years before her death she pulled things back a bit. She was not on drugs by then she was an alcoholic though. She tried to be a good mother but really it was all for show and she expected me to put the past behind me. I kept quiet. My siblings know what happened to me but it's never talked about.

I was there when she died. The years of addiction took her in her 40's in the most traumatic way. Her death haunts me.

So today I'm bracing myself for what I get every year. Social media posts from siblings saying how Much they miss her, how great she was. It's almost like they've forgotten the way we were dragged up. Or maybe I was just good at protecting them from the worst of it. I don't know.

I'm sad and grieve only for the mom and childhood I should of had.

blissfulllife

. None of that was your fault and you all slipped through all safety nets. It may be worth contacting NAPAC; their link is here:-
napac.org.uk/

You indeed need to continue to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

I would remove myself from all forms of social media, certainly do not read anything that your siblings write. They are happy in their own denial and rewriting of history. They know the truth here but cannot acknowledge it.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat I won't be looking on social media today. I can't take the weird view my siblings have of her. They go on like she was great and how much they miss her. It's very strange.

I'll take a look at that link thanks so much for taking the time to reply x

@blissfullife it’s often the case in families where some siblings / relatives can’t see the truth (or don’t want to)

A possible new reality is dawning on me. It is Mr Monkey’s first day back in the office after 16 months working from home. I’m not feeling great - bipolar low - and the home line rings. It is the Hag.

Mr Monkey’s at work.’
‘I know that.’

She wants Servant Son’s phone number. Can I read it out to her? No, I am to ring him so he can ring her. This is because he’s not phoned her not because she ‘doesn’t have his number’.

If this is going to be my life going forward I’m going to have to start ignoring the phone in the morning. Being at her beck and call all day every day? I think not.

I couldn’t even do the polite ‘how are you?’ because I’m done with her. I now avoid all possible contact with her in person. If MM’s mobile rings I just pass it over.

That, of course, doesn’t avoid the spite. We’re going to Wales in August to see my cousin for a long weekend. Pushed the boat out with a couple of nice hotels to bookend the weekend. As we don’t have a lot of money this is really exciting! I’d love to tell The Hag the costs as she thinks I’m a posh little bitch anyway.

MM mentions the weekend away in passing.
‘Wales?’ (Spiteful voice)

I mean, c’mon, why would you want your son to be happy?

She operates on constant low level spite about us going to my mum’s for various weekends so MM has to remind her that we’d not stayed with or really seen my mum during the whole of lockdown.

She has two settings - spite (high/low) or screaming.

No one exists in Planet Narc apart from her.

Talking to MM over a couple of bottles of wine this weekend the issue of her possessiveness came up. This was my polite way of framing it. He said moving to London about 20 years ago for a year was his way of making a break for it. Then five years later meeting me was a chance to get out of The Hag’s net.

Thinking back when I first met him he was so, so, so lacking in self-esteem (it’s not fantastic now but much better) and had had a breakdown in London. Basically, if I hadn’t turned up he would be living the same life as Servant Brother. She makes me so incredibly angry.

I ring Servant Brother.
‘The Hag wants you to ring her’
‘OK’

He’s got to the point in his life where he just thinks this is NORMAL. His life is controlled by an 84 year old abusive bitch and this is normal?

But what I have noticed is the increasing signs of dementia which will mean she won’t be able to manage on her own. We’re agreed it will be a care home. I, at that point, will be able to completely cut ties and never see her again. Her hair appointments are now booked for Saturdays so I don’t have to take her. MM totally gets it and there’s no pressure on me to do anything with or for her so all her divide and rule shit has totally failed.

It feels much better not seeing her, but dealing with her spite at arms length is pretty grim. I think the 10 weeks of her living here over the last 16 months with illness and a broken arm has made me absolutely loathe her rather than the dislike I had before. I was pushed to my limit and beyond.

She is a totally vile person. And I’m so proud of myself for fighting my corner, empowering MM, and us not having the life that Servant BIL has.

I've dipped in and out of this thread and always found it really helpful. I could really do with some advice for Sunday when I have arranged to meet my parents (in a neutral public setting) to discuss our 'problems'.

They have been difficult since I had my son and are quite self centred which often upsets me but I am getting better at grey rocking and just letting things wash over me.

The last time I saw my parents was when I dropped off some cards and presents for birthdays etc. I had arranged a time with them to do this, I turned up on time and the door was answered to me with my parents clearly distressed because I hadn't brought my son with me. I refused to go in the house but said I'd chat to them outside. They were hysterical, shouting crying, my mum tried to get in my car to stop me leaving. My dad said the last time we had a rocky patch he wanted to kill himself. I told them I was going to leave as they were hysterical and needed time to calm down before we talked, my dad put he legs under the wheels of my car and said I'd have to run him over to leave. They were saying things like "why are you destroying us". To be clear, I had just dropped of cards and gifts on my way to the hairdressers! That's all....

Before I left I did manage to get them back inside and a bit calmer I also told them they both needed to access counselling.

So, I have arranged to see them on Sunday to discuss a way forward and I'm dreading it. I will be on my own with them as my husband will be with my son. I'd dearly love him to be there but there is no easy way to facilitate that.

So, how do I start the conversation, what is a positive way forward? What is realistic to expect? I have no idea where to begin......

Mummyoply

What do you hope to achieve from this meeting?.

I would strongly urge you to cancel the meeting, it will in all likelihood and quickly descend into something so very awful and you will feel even more crap as a result. Send them a text saying the meeting is off then block their means of being able to contact you.

Your parents will never get your point of view, the only opinion that matters to them is their own and they will gang up on you. Never ever meet them on your own either; it is and will be two against one. Whatever you say to them, no matter how carefully worded, will be seen as an attack and they will respond accordingly.

Its not your fault both your parents are this personality disordered and you did not make them that way. Let them stew in their own juices and stay the hell away from them. No more dropping off cards/gifts to them.

You would never have tolerated this from a friend and your parents are no different. Do have a look at the Out of the Fog website as it could be useful to you also.

@Mummyoply - what are you hoping to achieve from the meeting with your parents? Are you hoping that they will change their behaviour? The scenario you describe about your last visit sounds completely batshit crazy.

You can't change the way other people are.

Cross posted with Attila, but yep, what she said.

Mummyoply

I wrote this as part of a reply to one of your previous postings:-

"You have to let go of all and any hope that they will now somehow become better people; they will not. You may well find setting boundaries very difficult also because they've never really encouraged you to have any; your mother sees you as an extension of her. Your dad is her enabler and secondary abuser.

Your job now is to also protect your child from such malign influences; I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep your child away from these people. They were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not fundamentally altered".

Emotionally healthy people do not act like your parents did when you visited them. Their responses were histrionic and totally disproportionate to what was happening. Again its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

And they will NEVER go to therapy; they likely think that they have done nothing wrong.

You cannot afford to have them in your life in any way shape or form any more. A good rule of thumb here is that if parents/relatives are batshit, toxic, or otherwise too difficult for YOU to deal with, its the SAME deal for your child too. Keep your own family unit well away from your parents.

You will have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. As for therapists; you ideally need a BACP registered person skilled in narcissistic abuse and recovery.

@AttilaTheMeerkat @Sicario thank you for taking the time to reply so thoughtfully and quickly.

Yes @Sicario it was a absolutely BatShit crazy, once it got over the shock of it all and was replying the events to my husband I even manage a chuckle. More because of the look of complete shock on his face. He completely believes me and is with me on this but it was just like the plot of one of those terrible fly on the wall type sitcoms!

I'm not sure what I want from the meeting, to have them be civil I suppose, for my mum to stop lying and take an interest in my son when she sees him. For context she always wants to see him but never engages with him conversationally, she just wants to talk about herself or often about other people or other children that we don't know. For my dad to be more polite and for them to just be 'normal' for want of a better word.

To reassure you all, I never leave my son alone with them, not even to go to the loo. They are always supervised.

When I saw them last time I did acknowledge that I had changed since becoming a mother, in fact I gave them a little lecture I suppose. I told them that I was stronger than I had ever been that I had cut people out of my life who didn't treat me well and that I wouldn't accept being spoken to inpolitely, have eyes rolled at me, huffs, puffs and tuts and that included from them. I told them that I as a mother I had an invisible protective bubble around my son and that I wouldn't let that bubble be penetrated by any negative action that I could prevent - they just couldn't believe it. My mum asked if I felt I needed to protect home from them and when I said yes she lost the plot because in her mind she thought I was saying she would physically hurt him. She honestly had no concept that pain could be caused without it being physical! That was quite an eye opener.

Anyway I'm waffling, I think they could still turn things around for us to have a civil distanced relationship. I think a lot of how they behalf is due to ignorance and laziness, it's hard work to step up and change and I guess that's the decision they now have to make.

I still have no idea how to talk to them about any of this though, they take everything as an attack, are immediately defensive and instinctively blame someone else for their behaviour.

My mum will also just say what I have said and turn it back on me, for example she asked me to give her a specific example of when she's hurt me/my son. I gave her one (I could have given many) and she said she couldn't remember the event. I actually believe her and I told her I believed her, I said that I think she might block things like this out as a form of self protection, so she doesn't have to admit to herself that she has been unpleasant. She will then lie about something I have done (which is clearly untrue) and say "well, I think you must have blocked it out because that's what I remember"

........it's exhausting.

Gosh I'm sorry for all of my spelling mistakes!

@Mummyoply - I think you're probably on a hiding to nothing. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. You can't reason with an unreasonable person and it sounds like this will just lead to a whole load more upset.

I found out the hard way that it's sometimes better to cut the ties and go no contact. It goes against all our instincts, but these disordered, unhealthy relationships are extremely damaging.

Dealing with disordered of thinking people is exhausting to say the least.

Have no further part in their lives; honestly its the best way for you and your own family unit.

re your comment:-

"I'm not sure what I want from the meeting, to have them be civil I suppose, for my mum to stop lying and take an interest in my son when she sees him. For context she always wants to see him but never engages with him conversationally, she just wants to talk about herself or often about other people or other children that we don't know. For my dad to be more polite and for them to just be 'normal' for want of a better word".

That is clearly never going to happen and you are going to remain very disappointed. Unlike you they have no empathy or insight; they do this because they can and it works for them. What makes you think you can have a conversation like the above with them; they have personality disorders which are both untreated and untreatable. ANYTHING that you say will be seen as an attack by both of them and they will round on you all too quickly and easily. Your mother will accuse you of lying and all sorts and your dad will back her up because he is her willing enabler. DO not enter this lion's den!!!.

Please keep your son also well away from them end of even though your parents are "supervised". This is because the emotional harm to him will be done also right in front of your very eyes; a look, a pinch from either your mother or father to name but two examples.

I realise they are your parents but they are really not worth bothering with; the only people who do bother with people like this are the now adult children of the narcissists and that is because they've had the "special training". You've has such special training and also seem mired in your own fear, obligation and guilt.

Again I would urge you to cancel this upcoming meeting for your own sake.

I really would like to cancel the meeting but feel very obligated to go and give it one last try. For those who have gone low or no contact. How did it affect your relationships with wider family members?

It is really no point in meeting your parents.

Do not give into your feelings of obligation as these are very much misplaced. And as for trying re your parents, you’ve really been trying your whole life.

Re wider family members some of them have already or may well be co-opted into taking your parent side. These people are then further sent to do your parents bidding. Such flying monkeys are not interested in hearing anyone else’s side of things and have their own agenda.

Have radiators in your life, not drains.

@Mummyoply, I concur with what PPs have said. They will not change. I wouldn't waste your time meeting up, I would expect if they are capable of that behaviour already then they will ramp it up. You have already taken steps to protect your child, keep this in mind as whatever they do to you they will also have no problem doing the same to your DC. As for wider family fall out, I had this fear too. I think all you can do is make decisions for you and your immediate family, and then just wait and see what happens. Don't worry about it until something comes out of it.