June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone, sorry to intrude. I've been lurking for a few months because of a sibling who I am sure has a personality disorder and who has been abusing my elderly father.
But I just signed up to reach out to @ceciledevolanges . I'm a (very junior) environmental lawyer and climate change litigation is an absolute passion of mine. Please hold on, the world needs you. Your intelligence and strength and resilience is so apparent in your posts. And the world needs more lawyers like you to take on the next wave of holding corporations and governments to account.
I've had significant mental health issues and having that purpose has been what has kept me going.
I'd love to chat about your dissertation or climate law generally. I'm on another continent, but I'm here for you if you need a handhold.

@Msrepresented

Hi everyone, sorry to intrude. I've been lurking for a few months because of a sibling who I am sure has a personality disorder and who has been abusing my elderly father. But I just signed up to reach out to *@ceciledevolanges* . I'm a (very junior) environmental lawyer and climate change litigation is an absolute passion of mine. Please hold on, the world needs you. Your intelligence and strength and resilience is so apparent in your posts. And the world needs more lawyers like you to take on the next wave of holding corporations and governments to account. I've had significant mental health issues and having that purpose has been what has kept me going. I'd love to chat about your dissertation or climate law generally. I'm on another continent, but I'm here for you if you need a handhold.

That is so kind! I'm going to PM you in a second. By the way, I'm sure you aren't intruding and everyone is always made welcome here

Has anyone not just set fire to bridges but launched a nuclear weapon from their side?

I’ve drafted and redrafted an email from me to parents listing my abuse as a child at their hands. This came out during counselling. The times I had head injuries and at to go to hospital due to my father punching me in the head- including on one occasion splitting my eye and head open. The hospital suspected abuse but he claimed at aged 10 I had hit my head falling down the stairs- as though that gave me a black eye, a split lip and cheek and a hand print on my face. Their abuse of my children. The fact I don’t want an inheritance etc and if they ever left me anything I would donate it to the Labour Party (😂😱) which would be their worse nightmare. Then I detail the historic abuse of their flying monkey who abused me as a child (he used to wank over my fathers porn collection and tried to get me even though I was a much younger female relative to wank him off with him looking at said collection’ this is the father that doesn’t even know I know about his porn habits as of course he is a raving feminist or so he claim as won’t even watch second tv I wonder how it might feel to let him know the current golden monkey boy knows of his collection and used it as a teenager - when my father of course whenhe isn’t pushing my mother down the stairs when she was pregnant with me etc !! I’ve been very very careful to stick to facts but I am on the verge of launching the missile - I do think the reaction would be silence and that would be a blessing. I haven’t done it. Dropping the rope hasn’t worked they just attempted to get to me through the kids who were terrified. Still waiting for the police to do something ??

Don't send it. All it will do is let they see what makes you vulnerable. They won't take any notice of it at best and will actively use it to manipulate you at worst.

You are right of course but I so want to end it (the relationship) and make it over - dropping the rope didn’t work and I don’t think it ever will stop them

They will wait a few years and try to reel the children in post 18 with money and inheritance etc

I sent my parents my version of this list. I got denial- 'that never happened', excuses 'but look at all the things we did for you- you're only focussing on the bad things', and gaslighting, 'I'm sorry you feel that way, but...'.

I felt a bit vindicated because they didn't deny everything, which implies that they accept the truth of the charges laid against them, but overall nothing was addressed.

Are the police aware of all of it? It might be something to show them instead of them.

@CeciledeVolanges

Are the police aware of all of it? It might be something to show them instead of them.

GP is and I would strongly suggest my medical records from the time indicating a concern of abuse. But we are talking about the 80s and father is titled, well wealthy, local gentry etc and up his own arse so he feels entitled to behave how he wishes I still think if the police visit he will wave it off and get a good solicitor etc

@Iamaperiwinkle: I burned the bridges, because I was sick of them crossing them despite firm and clear instructions not to. They refused, so I made damned sure there's no bridge to cross.

I have a few older friends whose experience is similar to mine, and they said the same thing. When we try to tell anyone else within the abusive/enabling family circle what happened, there's denial and justification. Which is quite an impressive feat, all things considered. "We didn't do that, but it was all your fault anyway."

I finally went NC with DB 4 years ago after 25 years of his alcoholism and mental abuse. I ended up having to have counselling as he had literally grounded me down to nothing. It was my GP who advised going NC for the sake of my mental health. My DM has since passed away and I had to make contact for the sake of her will and he was quick enough to come out of the woodwork to claim his share, but I have blocked him again now and will never have anything to do with him again. I am finally at peace!

I cut contact with my mother and sister, as I've explained here before, for countless valid reasons, not least a whole load of childhood trauma (neglect, sexual abuse, being used as my mothers emotional crutch, scapegoating, etc) and my sisters total invalidation of my experiences.

When I told my sister I was dealing with my past and healing from my experiences and that I need space from our mother and her continuous negativity, criticism and manipulation she, instead of hearing me or understanding, has subjected me to a barrage of insults, angry voicemails and emails and both her and my mother have joined forces to turn other family members against me.

My mother, as I have explained before, was a single mother, very poor, very traumatised herself and almost certainly with serious undiagnosed mental health issues that prevented her from looking after me. I should have been taken into care but I slipped through the net. Anyway, she does have issues...serious depression surely, anxiety and PTSD maybe. She has had a terrible life. I do feel sorry for her, but I was never ever allowed to have any feelings myself, or to question her because I was afraid of upsetting her. She always refused to seek treatment.

In the end, aged 40 and with two small children, I decided enough is enough. I went NC in February which I slipped up on once (and regretted it). I have had to go on antidepressents to deal with the drama from my sister and the realisation that none of my family give a sh*t about my experiences but instead want to lean on me for constant emotional and financial support while clearly hating everything about me.

But with each passing day, week, month I have felt free, clear and finally calmer and happier.

I thought I had blocked my sister on all platforms but today she got me and I saw more long, long emails coming through on my phone. I got the gist of them...which is that "its clear you don't give a sh*t but mum is not ok...". My sister lives on the other side of the world and constantly goes on to me that mum is "not ok" (ok enough, though, to bleed her for money to spend on designer shoes) and wanting me to step in.

I'm my mothers only contact, friend or relative in the country. Of course I feel awful, but I have spent decades trying to get her to help herself, or make good choices or seek treatment or whatever. I am just sick of it. I can't take on this role as her carer.

What do I do? Do I ignore these emails because they good be more drama cooked up to get me to make contact? Do I reply and risk being embroiled in more crap just when I'm getting my head together? If she is genuinely not well what do I do? The thoughts of being in this caring role now when I have taken so long to get to a halfway good position in my life make me despair.

I also don't think I can live with leaving a woman to suffer alone, even if she did bring it upon herself.
My sister has no intention of moving home and taking care of her because she is full of s**t and wants me to do it, like I have always done everything.
Sorry for the rant.
Thought you might understand as nobody else does!

I would protect yourself .. no-one else will.

Your DS has the option of contacting people to support your DM here as easily as she contacts you.

Even in the unlikely event that what is said is true, what do you imagine you could achieve now that you couldn't before?* Nothing has changed except you have some peace of mind and it sounds like you not so DS doesn't want that for you.

I can't find it atm but there was an excellent post on another thread of this about rocking the boat. Hopefully someone else can quote it as it perfectly fits your situation.
Sending

*This isn't meant to sound snarky in any way.

openwaterswimming

Keep protecting yourself because as Makemineamediumone rightly states no-one else will.

Ignore your sister's email rants. She is full of hot air and this is her only recourse as she is now on the other side of the world (a deliberate choice on her part). Certainly do not reply to anything she writes you; just delete it without reading and or send it to your spam folder. Do not give her words any power.

You were not put on this planet to be a saviour or a rescuer and you cannot help anyone like your mother. She does not want to be rescued or saved. She gave birth to you but after that she was and remains no sort of decent parent to you. She abused you throughout your childhood; that was not your fault and that is all on her. She had a choice re you and she chose to mete out the same old shit that was done to her. She never sought or wanted to seek the necessary help. Social services will step in and you are under no obligation even now to act in any way re your mother. Drop the rope entirely here.

I will find that rocking the boat reference and post it separately giving credit to its sender.

Purplrayhan posted this on a previous Stately Homes thread:-

Thought this from another thread might be helpful to anyone who hasn't see it. Hopefully@singlemummanurse wont mind me copying and sharing here.

#Don't rock the boat.

I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did.

When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.

While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!

So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

@openwaterswimming I may have given this advice before so apologies if I'm repeating myself!
Other wise posters have given good advice about the best way you can protect yourself, which is by ignoring your sister's emails and not responding to the situation at all. I think the number one thing you have to bear in mind is that you are upset and care about the situation because you are a good, kind, caring and empathetic person, unlike your sister and other family members, it seems. As others have advised and you seem to recognise, you must not under any circumstances allow yourself to get involved and you absolutely MUST NOT take on the role of your mother's carer.
That said, it really stood out to me that you're feeling guilty about "leaving a woman to suffer alone" and that you recognise that she brought it on herself. This is manipulation, pure and simple, because you've been an easy target and almost trained from birth to occupy this role, but you were born to have your own independent and happy life, not to act in this way.

If you read no other part of this post, maybe the one thing I can contribute is this idea: do not contact any of your family members BUT could you contact any services in your mother's area? A police welfare check might be a wake-up call to your mother that she needs to seek proper help. I'm not really aware of the structure of local authority care but you could also call social services to register concern (if this is possible). She needs to be getting help and support from these people, not you, but she can't be bothered and would rather create drama and manipulation. There might even be charities who can give her a ring or who can advise you on how to handle the situation.
This may be a rubbish idea, but it may also be a way to protect yourself and avoid the guilt you would unjustifiably feel at taking the actions needed to protect yourself. I'm reluctant to advise spending another second on your family, to be honest, but I'm also aware of the huge and corrosive weight of guilt!

That's the one, thanks for finding and posting it. So powerful even now readi g it back again.

The stuff about rocking the boat reminded me of this. Matt Dangler's "Drowning Salvation". Someone posted the image to a group I used some years ago. It sums the whole narc thing up nicely. Stay away from/off the water (the person in the boat is rowing away).

Gosh, those hook arms are perfect(ly horrifying).

Can you start to do so in your mind, emotionally so to speak? At least planning it out might give you some feeling of control?

You can also start to make practical preparations for what it will mean to establish a healthy separation. The first thing that comes to mind is changing your number, maybe? That might make you feel a bit better. If you can find something to get you out of the house, at least, for as long as possible, that might help.

THE HAG.

God, I hate her so much. I see the damage she has done to her son (my partner) every single day - his anxiety, his nightmares, his lack of confidence.

She is just vile. Last weekend we went to my mum’s and The Hag was horrible about that. Jealousy of my mum’s life which is busy and positive.

And It’s obvious we don’t want to spend any time with her.

Yesterday I booked tickets for a historical tour of Manchester so off me, Mummy Monkey and DP go. We had a great time. We come home and have drinks in the garden. It’s 6.30pm and Mr Monkey makes the ‘expected’ call to The Hag. He does it at the table.

‘Yes, we’re all out in the garden. Monkey’s mum is here. Do you want to say hello?’
‘No, it’s alright’
It’s clearly NOT alright that 1) my mum is here and 2) we are having a nice time. The Hag realises that MM is really close to my mum and resents it.
Then The Hag asks what we’ve been doing. MM tells her.
‘Well, you didn’t ask me’
And so it starts.
A load of spleen about a walk in the boiling sun for 90 minutes that she wouldn’t have been able to physically do.
MM now always has his phone on speaker, I think this is some psychological need to have witnesses because there were no witnesses to the shit he dealt with as a kid.
The spleen goes on. My mum is stony faced. I want to go the Hag’s lair and punch her.
‘I’ll ring you tomorrow’
‘Yes, and you can tell me about something else I’m not invited to.’

I can’t adequately put into words how those conversations go. It’s just so, so, so VILE. just so abusive and CRUEL.

Apparently, she’s been pecking at him ‘well, you don’t seem to do anything but see Monkey’s mum these days’. Mr Monkey has to point out that during lockdown we hadn’t been able to see her. And, of course, it’s a dig at my family and trying to guilt trip him. He’s past the guilt stage with her now.

GOD, SHE IS FUCKING HORRIBLE.

I’m looking at my partner and he’s so shakey and anxious today. I actually want to ring her and tell her how horrible she is. I’d stopped that sense of wanting to tell her what I thought of her quite a while back. I feel like marching round to her flat and SCREAMING at her. My biggest fear (this is peak anxiety) is something happening to me and MM having to deal with her and her getting her claws in even deeper. She is just so horrible.

@MonkeyfromManchester so sorry she is still around for you all to have to deal with it. I hope having others who see her clearly around you is helpful to some extent - your mum sounds like she could provide an understanding ear...

I went to see my maternal grandparents today. Pretty traumatic visit overall, though it did end with us on good terms and me promising to visit them again. I will write more tomorrow (if you can all stand another essay from me) but I'm a very guilty person tonight. To the extent that I'm considering getting back in touch with my DM! I would phone my therapist but can't afford it this month

It didn't end with you on good terms though did it? It ended with your boundaries being squashed. Again. To the extent that you are even considering contact with DM. I'm no therapist it would it be worth going back to the start of your postings on here and reading them back? To get the big picture? It looks like they're hooking you in again.