June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Feeling calmer. Have told the police as father is titled (more like ducking entitled !) that he thinks he is above the law. As I approached their front their brand spanking new security system went off with led lights and live video cameras went off 😂 who the duck do they think wants to visit (?) nobs. Certainly not us. They got the letter from the hospital by mistake and obviously opened it and read it and hence the calls. But seriously who the hell grabs my son and fills his pockets with sweets or tried to take my daughters phone off her when she tries to phone for help ??

Hi all, I've posted here before but not in a long time. I've been NC with my parents for the past 18 months. My mother is a total doormat to my autocrat father and they caused a bitter row over a situation between my brother (the golden child) and me, which was nothing to do with them and a step too far for me. I finally put my foot down and refused to put up with their bullshit anymore. Not that they have really tried to even attempt to reconcile, but once again its left as if I'm the bad one as I haven't brushed things under the carpet and let them barrell on. They also blame me for my other siblings going NC with them due to the fallout of the row.

They don't see my kids anymore and whist that does make me sad, I'm also so angry that they clearly don't even want to try and make up for the kids sakes or so that they can see the kids growing up.

Anyway I guess I half expected by now that something would have happened to maybe bring about a reconciliation, but its increasingly clear to me that they are sitting waiting for me to do something, despite them being absolutely in the wrong and unable to admit it. I guess I'm just accepting finally that that's it, the situation is final and it's not going to change. I need to finally let it go and concentrate fully on my own life. I think once a situation has gone on this long it's not going to change so I need to just get on with it.

I know I could go over there tomorrow and sit and have inane chat about the weather and they'd think great that's that. But I don't want a bullshit relationship where things are not discussed as I can't move on until things are dealt with.

Has anyone ever reconciled with family after a long time?

@openwaterswimming you've just described my previous situation. Now, with the benefit of thearapy and hindsight, I can clearly see that - as you so wisely point out - a mother should nurture relationsgood and to do otherwise, creating a mini me who feels it's ok to send abusive communications is something I can well do without. And be better for. 2 years ago, I got to the end of my tether when I realised that I was an emotional punch bag and the sole recipient of bile dumping after a spectacular temper tantrum directed at me, I had therapy and it was revelatory. Now, the more time goes on, the happier and more content I am. Despite me working in a front line NHS C19 job and being on my knees, did I get a check in to see if was alive? Nope. A Christmas card? Nope. A 60th birthday card? Nope. This year, stopped sending cards. Mother's Day and her birthday have passed with nothing from me and guess what? A flurry of under the radar FB friend requests, 'accidental' texts and emails. Nothing that might actually need her to confront her appalling behaviour you understand. I'm supposed to just be grateful that she has designed to be in touch. Well, that's a no from me. Blocked on all now so she's now doing the rounds of my DPs family. Fortunately, she's getting no traction there. Distance has been my shield and friend. I hope it will be yours too

Thanks @NCSistineChapel and @Doodlebug71.

@Littlemoons yes distance has been fantastic. It's mad because I predicted everything that is happening even years ago. I said that if mum kept playing us (my sister and I) off eachother, badmouthing me to her etc, that it would result in my sister and I cutting ties forever. I asked her if this is what she really wants? Would a mother want to drive a wedge between her two adult daughters? She just denied she ever did it and continued. She has no friends of her own and has to always use one of us as an emotional crutch, which is part of the problem. When I had my own children and stopped having time for that role, she turned to my sister and made me out to be a horrendous person. What is so sad is that my mother will do anything for the brief emotional dopamine hit or whatever it is of getting my sisters sympathy, or by knowing she is setting her on me. Even when I explicitly asked that this behaviour stop, that I was sick and tired (literally) of waking up to 20 angry name-calling voicemails from my sister, she continued, in fact it got worse, as even me asking for her to stop manipulating led to...more manipulating.
I'm now breaking the seemingly fundamental right of allowing my mother and sister access to their grandchildren/nieces. This was not what I had planned...I only wanted some healthy communication and to try and heal from the trauma of the past rather than sweep it under the rug. I only asked that my boundaries be respected during a time of immense pressure (jobs/money/Covid/kids etc). Instead of getting any of that, instead of anyone listening or hearing me even one iota, I got castigated, insulted and accused of bullying (mother plays the victim card in the most insidious ways to make me look crazy).
So I have walked away. I feel like it is not healthy for my children to see their mother literally sick with anxiety before their grandmother visits...and for that darling grandmother to undermine me, be rude to my husband and my in-laws and to comment on my weight.
Apparently this makes me a horrific person, but whatever.

It's crazy how setting a firm boundary releases the craaaaazy.

I only asked that my boundaries be respected

That was never going to happen - don't you know your role is to be a deposit for their emotional incontinence??

Coming back here as I know you all get it. Not sure what I want, just to offload I think.

Very LC with DM for the past few years. My sibling is NC. We are both in touch a bit with our stepdad. He’s lovely, but I think quite weak. DM has isolated him from any friends he had, all his family and made things difficult with his adult children. He has enabled but he’s been trapped by her too.

It seems after a couple of sad incidents, DM has hit rock bottom in terms of depression. I know that our lack of contact is a major contributor to this.

I live abroad and have random texts with my stepdad, send photos of the kids etc but he’s a bit crap with staying in touch, always has been, so we don’t speak often. I had told him I’d happily speak more but her alluded to feeling bad for going behind DM’s back…

My sibling lives closer and has been in touch with my stepdad a bit more. Saw him recently and it seems DM is really struggling - days on end of crying, not speaking to him, not seeing anyone. She’s also said he’s betraying her when he speaks to me and sibling. My stepdad did try for a while to get us all to reconcile but I think eventually gave up. He knows what DM is like so I think he kind of understands our position. Though he’s very head-in-the-sand too, so I think he’d hoped this would all blow over and we’d be “happy” families again, regardless of how many times sibling and I said that would only be possible if DM took responsibility for her words and actions do started to rebuild the trust that is long lost.

Stepdad is early 70s, works full time. We joked that if he retired he’d have to spend more time with DM so he just keeps working.

My sibling said this last conversation with stepdad was different. He seems genuinely lost and mal-equipped to deal with this new depth of depression from DM. Apparently she can ignore him for days on end, especially if she knows he’s been in touch with us.

My heart aches for this poor man who’s totally trapped. He has asked for a divorce twice. She’s manipulated him financially and emotionally so I think he’s taken the approach that he’s made his bed and now he’ll have to lie in it. But what a shitty existence. For both of them really.

No one goes LC/NC lightly right? I know that I would upset DM, I had to balance that with my own emotional well being. I know I owe them nothing. I know it can’t be fixed. But what a sorry state of affairs. What a sad mess.

I’m afraid I think I’ve come to the end of my tether. In hospital today and I know I won’t cope when I get back, because of how my parents have always treated me as completely incompetent. I’m never going to sleep without nightmares (it’s every night without fail, vivid ones about my family). I’ve failed at everything and I’m useless and it’s never getting better. I’m done with this life. Please don’t tell me to call Samaritans (useless) or ask to stay in the hospital (they won’t, I’ve tried). I should probably post this on the mental health thread but it’s a result of abuse and even stuff that’s actually considered an illness (eating disorder, depression, PTSD) they’ve convinced me it’s my fault and deliberate. I can’t deal with hating myself this much and constantly self sabotaging. Sorry everyone.

@CeciledeVolanges That sounds so upsetting, I'm sorry. Can you talk a bit more about how you're feeling right now and what your situation is? Suicide is such a permanent solution but the feelings you're having now will change and ease in time. I know that sounds like such a cliche, but I have been in your situation, suicidal, hating myself, feeling worthless and not seeing any hope for the future, but there were ways through it. It's not your fault, and you obviously do know that on some level. Trust that instinct, that you have deep down, that understands you were abused and frightened and all these behaviours are just you trying to protect yourself. Do you have a friend or anyone in real life you can talk to?

@CeciledeVolanges - please try to hang on in there Cecile. You have the support of all of us on this thread. We KNOW that you're not useless - we see that you are an intelligent, articulate woman who has been subjected to horrible abuse by your family.

We know what that feels like and how it can reduce us to a shadow. This WILL get better for you. You have been so strong and come so far.

Please tell people in real life what they are doing to you and the effect it is having on you. You have not "failed". You are having a really tough time right now because you are making changes to your life so that you can have a better future without their abuse.

Thinking of you.

I first tried to commit suicide in 2012 and so far I’ve not got better, they always come back. I am too ashamed to reach out to friends and have lost most of them anyway,
I did try texting one but she hasn’t replied. I think at this stage I want a permanent solution because it is a permanent problem. Nothing can remove the fact that I’ve been abusing alcohol to cope, or make me less than a hopeless failure, and it doesn’t feel like anything will change the volatility of my moods or despair. I’ve tried and tried again and there’s no hope. Just waiting to be let out from hospital honestly.

Between this and the effects of lockdown I’m not even sure I am making changes for a better life. I’ve lost 10kg in the past two months. I can’t sleep and I haven’t really progressed with my job or degree, and I’ve isolated myself.

@CeciledeVolanges feelings will go - life is a journey. There is no happy final destination but it is possible to be treated for the chronic abuse you have suffered. Please hang in there.

The use of alcohol is you fighting and trying to fight on and survive.

Could a move to another country and a total reinvention be a possibility in any way shape or form? Change you name, identity etc

You might have been struggling with this for a long time - but it can and Will get better ❤️‍🩹 x

Sorry, I know this thread isn’t just about me and I don’t want to distract from others posting for the first time. Just absolutely know I can’t cope any more.

You are not a hopeless failure. There is hope. Things will change. Nothing is guaranteed in life except that things WILL change, that's the nature of the universe and being human - everything changes. So just hang on, please. Try to sleep, watch something mindless on tv, just get through this low point and see how you feel tomorrow. One day at a time. One hour at a time. Whatever you can manage. Be gentle because you deserve gentleness, and be kind, because you deserve kindness. You can't change the past, it's true, but you won't always feel this way, you really, honestly won't.

@CeciledeVolanges

Between this and the effects of lockdown I’m not even sure I am making changes for a better life. I’ve lost 10kg in the past two months. I can’t sleep and I haven’t really progressed with my job or degree, and I’ve isolated myself.

Sometimes to go forwards you need to reverse down a huge long bumpy trench which is life endangering to take the right road

@Iamaperiwinkle by the way I’ve definitely considered changing my name, but can’t decide on one - I think because of being quite depressed, ironically. Similarly I find doing my washing or cooking incredibly challenging so moving to a different country may be a little ambitious… but good suggestion!

It doesn't matter that you can't do it all now. Even considering any of it is progress. By posting on here, that's a win. By engaging with the rest of us here, that's a win. By knowing you're at a low point BUT YET STILL doing something proactive about it is a BIG ducking WIN. Small, small wins keep adding up like the pennies making the pounds.

Ducking? Fucking. Obvs

Thank you so much everyone who replied.

I need to apologise both for being so self-absorbed and for distracting attention from other/new posters who may have been going through much worse and needed help much more.

I'm back at home (to my shame, after my departure was delayed several times, I had a pretty big panic attack and almost ran out of the hospital, despite being pretty terrified to be here alone as well). Obviously, I'm grateful when the hospital patch me up for significant physical problems, and to some extent they keep me safe from myself and there's always company, but it also makes me feel very trapped and I find it overwhelming to be asked over and over and over again who I live with, do I want to call my family, can I go and stay with family, can family help. Does anyone else find this sort of thing very difficult? Throughout the entire family pandemic it's been very hard to get away from the constant messages of "I can't wait to hug my mum" or "I can't bear it, I haven't seen my parents for x months".

Anyway, sorry for letting it get on top of me. For the moment, I'm safe and working on my dissertation for distraction. Thank you so much again and thinking of others going through difficulties.

You don't need to apologise at all. I'm glad you were able to reach out on here and glad to hear today is a bit better.

Yes I feel the same with people talking about how they miss their mum and all that. It just sort of hammers it home that I don't have that kind of relationship. It must have been hard to deal with constant questions like that.

What's your dissertation on?

@beastlyslumber it's on climate change law. Studying has always been something I love and I've been doing it in my spare time even when not on a formal degree ever since I finished my BA! I used to be told I was quite good at it (and my good friends and some teachers/mentors have always encouraged me in it) and I can get totally absorbed in it. Unfortunately one of the things this past year is that my family members have done everything they can to discourage me, prevent me, tell me I can't do it, so my confidence has been pretty destroyed. Luckily I've got two extraordinary supervisors who seem excited about my ideas and take them seriously, and have been uncompromising about my ability to finish it, which has helped hugely.

That was (as per) a bit self absorbed, but has anyone else here read Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning"? He was a Holocaust survivor who developed a form of therapy which was all about finding a purpose (or person or even a concept) to live for. It sounds a bit pretentious but sometimes knowing that I'm doing what I'm best at, on a subject which I think is important, has kept me going through some dark times. If I'm of any use at all on this thread it's probably by sharing what I learn in therapy and through reading so I hope this resonates for someone!

Just going to try to make up for monopolising the thread by contributing my two cents to the posters I distracted from (sorry) - not that I am the most knowledgeable or wise on the thread by a long way! @Lemon27 first of all just wanted to say your feelings are completely valid. However, and this may sound harsh, I wouldn't say 18 months is a long time. This might go against the grain here, but I wouldn't necessarily say final as in definitely things will never change at all ever, but if they do change it will be exceptional and it will take a lot longer than 18 months. First they have to realise the need to change, then they need to make fundamental changes to their own behaviour, relationship with each other, and outlook on the world, which takes ages. I would say take the attitude that you are better off without them in your life, and you will know they have changed if they reach out to you in a way which shows genuine change and contrition and that they have had a lot of work (e.g. years of therapy). Because this happens so very seldom, you are absolutely right that you need to concentrate on your own life, and don't give people that have treated you so badly any room in your head or any of your energy or hope. Beware of crocodile tears and them pretending to change, as well. The first time I was NC with my parents, my mother kept contacting me in increasingly intrusive ways and it was terrible for my mental health. Then when I finally ended up in her presence again she congratulated herself for "not giving up" and threatened to kill herself if I ever did it again - you can imagine how I feel at the moment now I'm doing it again! Sorry, this is a bit contradictory. I think I'm trying to say, don't let this make you too cynical about humanity as a whole but for now, they do not belong in your life or your thoughts as they are very bad for you and probably your DC.

@LoonyMoony that sounds really difficult, and the guilt is one of the hardest things to deal with. As a point of fact, you actually don't need the other person's consent to seek a divorce, there are a number of grounds you can use to petition for one unilaterally, and it sounds like there would be no shortage of people who could give witness statements as to unbearable behaviour! To some extent, those who stay in a marriage like that and enable the behaviour are getting something out of it - I am NOT referring to straightforward DA victims but people like your SF.
About your DM's depression - yes, it's horrible. But it's not your fault at all, and you are still doing the right thing. It was her behaviour that led to this situation, and she doesn't sound like she is seeking help or support. She just wants to manipulate her old crutches back into her life, and probably gets something out of the drama, victimhood and self-pity. This sounds very harsh, but I know that losing people I care about has been the trigger for me to seek help in the past, particularly for the more destructive and self-destructive behaviours I've picked up - and I mean immediately, and with an excruciating awareness that I've hurt people I care about, however inadvertently. Don't weaken, keep yourself as your first priority.

Sorry this was massively long, I completely lack the skill of writing concisely! Thanks and sorries all round, as usual, and thinking of you all.

Unfortunately one of the things this past year is that my family members have done everything they can to discourage me, prevent me, tell me I can't do it, so my confidence has been pretty destroyed. Luckily I've got two extraordinary supervisors who seem excited about my ideas and take them seriously

Your dissertation sounds really interesting and it's great you have excellent supervisors who have confidence in you. Trust them! They know what they're talking about, so if they think you're great, then that is cold hard cash you can take to the bank. Your family, on the other hand, knows nothing about you and sounds like they wouldn't have any respect for your ability even if they were smart enough to recognise it. They are lying to you. Can you use their negativity to fuel you? As in, fuck you, I'm going to prove that I am good at this. See if you can find your anger and use it to overcome your doubts.

Yes I have read that book and I found it incredibly moving. To remain human in the most inhuman conditions is an incredible message of hope. I heard something the other day along similar lines, a story from a concentration camp. One of the inmates prays to God every day, saying thank you, thank you God. Another says to her, why are you thanking God, when we are in this awful condition and the guards constantly beat and abuse us? The first inmate says, I'm thanking God that I am not them. It's better to be human and abused than to do evil to others.

Just because others mistreat you, doesn't mean you deserve it or that there's anything wrong with you. It would be worse to be them. I do believe that's true.

@beastlyslumber I have also done bad things, so I come down on both sides, really. But I do come back to that idea constantly. I think I've said on this thread before, but when I think of my mother I try to think of that scene in Harry Potter where he says "you're the weak one, and you'll never know love, and I feel sorry for you". Cliche but true!
I can't remember where I read this, but another thing I heard about concentration camps was when they liberated one (can't remember which) they found a lot of butterflies painted on the wall of a building where those inside would have known they were about to die. There must be thousands more stories like that, most of them we will never know about. I don't generally find the idea of people worse off than I am cheering - quite the opposite - but the strength and goodness of some people in the worst situations is always inspiring and moving.

Sorry, I hasten to add that "bad things" does not mean murder, abuse, physical attack, crimes etc. Just things that have upset others.

I have also done bad things

Everyone has, because no one is perfect, and it's impossible to go through life without sometimes hurting others' feelings. But that doesn't make you a bad person, much less an abusive one. You are doing your best, that's all you can expect of yourself. You are a good person who deserves love and healing.