June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Sicario @EgoeswhereIgoes thank you both for your replies.

Logically I know I should just cut him out but when it actually comes down to doing it I just don't seem to be able to make the break. When we got back in touch after DS was born he kept saying how difficult that time had been for him and how he didn't know if he was going to be allowed to meet DS etc. Sometimes when I speak to him he seems like a normal parent but then I remember everything he's put all of us through in the past. One thing my counsellor said to me has stuck though, I said I didn't want DS having a close relationship and that they would never be left alone together. She asked me why if I thought he going to put up with his behaviour towards DS why was it ok for me to put up with it? I still don't have a good answer to that one.

Mylittlesandwich

If your father is too toxic, difficult or otherwise too batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your child as well. Find it within yourself to make the break as your sister has done. It’s hard being the last one left but you need to break contact as much for yourself as for your child. Your dad will merely use your child to get back at you. Like practically all abusive people your dad has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for his actions.

Your reasons for staying in touch with him are really flimsy and is being done out of your own fear, obligation and guilt.

When we got back in touch after DS was born he kept saying how difficult that time had been for him and how he didn't know if he was going to be allowed to meet DS etc
Of course he did, he knows his best chance of staying in control of you is if he makes you feel guilty. Stop giving him any benefit of any doubt, he knows EXACTLY what he is doing, it's all about making you feel guilty, interior, beholden to him etc.
He takes every opportunity to engineer things to his advantage, keep you under control and make you his servant.
If you trust him then you are an open goal and he will take full advantage.
I know it's hard, you've been trained from birth to obey him, it's always hard to break our training.

Reposting as I’ve found a newer thread! Sorry for the long story and this incident isn’t too much in itself but just has reopened my eyes to the way my mum treats me as an adult of almost 40.

Hello everyone, I’ve thought of posting on this thread before but after another interaction that’s made me anxious to the point of feeling physically ill, now I’d like to get my thoughts down.

How normal is this. We’re moving house. 4 kids under 10. No removals available so moving ourselves with the help of a loaned vehicle and a few friends. We had already moved a lot of our stuff to the rental. Saturday was going to be a big day, moving most of the heavy stuff and furniture with some extra help.

Meanwhile, Friday in the daytime my mum calls to ask what she can do to help and offers to help me take kids swimming on Saturday morning and get them out of the house to help the movers. We agree she will come at 8.30 to allow plenty of time to get to lessons.

Dh gets a call Friday from his most reliable and strongest helper. He can only come and help on Friday evening. We make a last minute call to move on Friday evening so this guy can help us, moving our beds so we have to sleep at the new place (which is 10 mins away). Then on Saturday we plan to come back to do some more with the other two friends.

Cue an absolute scramble of trying to get kids and heavy stuff moved, enormously heavy fridge, washing machine etc and enough stuff to keep us going overnight. We of course forget a few things, needing a bit of to-ing and fro-ing. Kids get to bed at nearly 11, we after midnight.

I didn’t inform my mum of this changed plan, my thought was it didn’t affect her because the swimming plan hadn’t changed, thinking I’ll be going back to the old house early on Saturday morning anyway as I want to clean up before the movers get there, and as i said, she had agreed to come at 8.30. It was a very hectic night as well.

Saturday morning getting ready to go to old house with the kids and swimming stuff. I check my phone around 8.10 (i had left it upstairs charging, as had dh as we couldn’t find our chargers before going to bed.) A missed call from my mum had come in at 8.01 and also a message from my dad that she was at the house and was trying to get hold of me.

I called her right back, it was at 8.14 to be exact and she was curt on the phone and said she was on her way home. She said she was about halfway home, she lives a 35 minute drive away. I explained what had happened the night before, she grumpily said ‘I’ll come back then’ and pretty much hung up, although was in the car to be fair.

We make our way over to arrive at 8.30. She is obviously put out, saying she didn’t know what to think coming to find our house empty and both cars gone and neither I nor dh were answering our phones. Makes me feel terrible for not telling her. Says she’s had a bad night and something terrible has happened, although when pressed never said what it was, and later turns out to be nothing material, perhaps her own feelings.

I should point out that we have had a sad anniversary this weekend as my brother died 10 years ago. I understand it’s a sad time for her and all of us. This may have been the cause of her bad night.

Now, i did actually intend to be there as early as I could but in the end I could only manage 8.30. In hindsight, I should have told my mum about our change of plan. But we did agree to meet at 8.30! I’m sure because i was cutting it fine I would have texted when leaving to say we’re on our way.

Is it reasonable what she did? Arriving half an hour early, deciding after a few minutes to go home and being annoyed at me?

There is back story to this, it’s not the first time something like this has happened. We have a mostly good relationship and she loves the dcs and offers a lot of help. But she has a tendency to rage or resentment every so often, and i often seem to be the cause. Eg. a week after dc1 was born she came knocking on my door shouting at me because I hadn’t lived up to her expectations of being a grandparent. She can be a little paranoid and thinks people are out to get her. She also has a thinly veiled contempt for dh.

We did end up having a fairly nice time together after the initial upset. I should probably shake it off and not let it get to me but this kind of interaction i have with her i find really upsetting. I don’t know in what mood I’m going to find her in and sometimes she’s annoyed at me over things I can’t control. Feel like I’m always messing up and am generally very lacking in confidence.

Handhold needed.

I think I've just started the process of going NC. I've been LC since the last incident, responding to messages but with the bare minimum, not seeing them in person. It's been wonderful, quite frankly, and I've felt so free.

But this morning my Dad messaged (he wrote something along the lines of, 'Mummy, why did you fall out with Grandma and Grandad? Because they bought you a trike. I hope it takes a lot more than this for your kids to fall out with you when they grow up!') And I kinda snapped.

I listed some of the bigger things that they have done that fed into me going LC, going right back to childhood. I did not hold back. I said I knew that their response would be the Narcissist's prayer (pasted the actual text of it in) and that the trike was the straw that broke the camel's back and sent it.

I've turned notifications off for that conversation and archived it but I know that won't stop the response coming in and I feel like I'm waiting for the hammer to fall.

@NCSistineChapel

Handhold needed.

I think I've just started the process of going NC. I've been LC since the last incident, responding to messages but with the bare minimum, not seeing them in person. It's been wonderful, quite frankly, and I've felt so free.

But this morning my Dad messaged (he wrote something along the lines of, 'Mummy, why did you fall out with Grandma and Grandad? Because they bought you a trike. I hope it takes a lot more than this for your kids to fall out with you when they grow up!') And I kinda snapped.

I listed some of the bigger things that they have done that fed into me going LC, going right back to childhood. I did not hold back. I said I knew that their response would be the Narcissist's prayer (pasted the actual text of it in) and that the trike was the straw that broke the camel's back and sent it.

I've turned notifications off for that conversation and archived it but I know that won't stop the response coming in and I feel like I'm waiting for the hammer to fall.

You okay? I haven't read your previous posts, but the one thing that narcs are really good at is manipulating, and making every single incident out to be *your fault.

Ignore the texts. Narcs can be like piranhas. They'll feed off anything. Don't give them anything.

As some of you know, part of the reason for my going LC and then NC with my mother and sister was this toxic triangle they had created whereby anything I said to either of them was immediately fed back to the other, in order to make me sound like a bad person.
This, I came to realise, added to a litany of other dysfunctions is part of a pattern. My mother, who is extremely emotionally needy, very low self-esteem, highly manipulative and always looking for validation tried to get those things by creating a "mini me" through my younger sister. We were treated to very different parenting, my sister growing up thinking our mother was the best thing since sliced bread and me being scapegoated, parentified, loaded with responsibility, and told I was a cold, heartless person. I was am am frequently told I am "on the spectrum" (I am not). If I ever tried to explain my side of the story...that I had been through a traumatic childhood, subject to abuse at the hands of my mothers boyfriends or essentially neglected..I was told, particularly by my sister, to "get over it" or that I was "jealous" of my sisters beauty (I am not) or her relationship with our mother (again, no).
But our mother feeds into this constantly by always phoning my sister after any interaction I have an complaining about me. Next thing I know (as I've said here before) I'll have 20 or 30 angry and emotional messages or voicemails from my sister. This has gone around in circles for years, decades.
When I decided to go LC one of the reasons I said to them was that the communication had become highly toxic and it is not normal for mothers to try and turn one daughter against another. I tried to explain to my sister (who is, in a way, a victim of manipulation herself) that our mothers job is to nurture our relationship not try and drive a wedge between us, that she is doing it because she has issues and low self-esteem, she is looking for attention. Then...of course...I was just called names again....and more and more angry emails.
So now I have blocked them both on social media, and blocked all but my mothers main phone number (unfortunately, as you know, I'm her only contact in the whole country - she has no friends, not even an acquaintance, or any family so I'm her contact number in case of emergencies...a position I detest being in).
Does this pattern of sibling interaction ring a bell with any of you? Siblings who think you're the devil incarnate for questioning the family dynamic?
Nobody, not one person, in my family is interested in my side of the story at all. I'm just the evil person who is denying a poor old woman contact with her grandchildren. It's SUCH a burden to carry...friends think I am heartless, family have cut contact with me, nobody actually understands (except my DH, who knows they are toxic, and you guys, who get this stuff).

@openwaterswimming: "Grow up/get over it/learn to get on with people." Those are all stock phrases with abusive families, sadly.

@Doodlebug71 Thanks, I'm OK I think. He came back with a list of everything he's ever done for me (including working at a job, like he wouldn't have done that anyway 🙄) and said I'm focusing on the bad and ignoring the good. I've not replied as yet, though I have one in draft where I basically say that feeding, housing, clothing and teaching your kid stuff is basic parenting and cancels out nothing, but I might just leave it.

I'm sorry @openwaterswimming, that sounds very tough. I second that toxic families normalise abuse to the point where you feel bad for making waves.

When the attention/ drama / event is not on or about them, they create a situation involving themselves. You stuck to your arrangements, she didn’t. Hope you’re ok💐

'Mummy, why did you fall out with Grandma and Grandad? Because they bought you a trike. I hope it takes a lot more than this for your kids to fall out with you when they grow up!
a weird mocking passive aggressive thing to say, this is not designed to initiate an adult to adult conversation about the issues between you, rather this is a stick to poke you with.
The intention is to wind you up so that you respond, your response will provide them with more information about what is making you unhappy, they will use this information to further dominate and control you.
They dont want to level with you and talk about things properly because that is not an arena where they can have the upper hand, they just want to play silly buggers because that's all they got.

Hi everyone. I've been estranged from my mum for about 12 years now, which has been very healthy for me. She is now dying, and I don't know exactly what to do/feel/say to people about it.

I have picked up contact with her again out of a sense that I ought to be kind and also I don't want to cause any difficulties with other people in the family, especially my siblings who are caring for her.

I feel that I've never really had a mum and I've grieved for that. Now that she is dying, I don't know if I feel anything other than the compassion I'd feel for anyone. I worry I'm callous, or that I'm somehow repressing my true feelings.

Also, since we've been back in contact (very lightly) she has been generally quite nice, and it's making me wonder if I was wrong to have cut her out of my life for so long. Was I overreacting to her treatment of me (lies, gaslighting, silent treatment, anger, coldness, neglect.)

It's a confusing time.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. Not expecting advice or anything. I think I just needed to say it!

Hi Beastly👋
This is my take on what you say... the fact that your mother is operating through a nice persona now does not mean that you were overreacting when she was being abusive. Furthermore if you were callous you wouldn't be worrying about whether you done the right thing in the past.

..... further furthermore you can see that she is in control of her behaviour, she is nice or nasty depending on which strategy best suits her needs. Being nice serves a purpose, distracts you from her previous behaviour and makes you doubt yourself, it is is a way to draw you in, much easier to dominate and control someone if you can get them to trust you first.

@Sicario @Coconut80

Hag report from Sunday. I am still alive. I was DREADING contact with the Toxic Mother In Law aka The Hag after her not stepping over the threshold since 22 April.

My mum came over as the Human Shield - she’s relentlessly cheerful and is like Maria in the Sound of Music.

I was cooking when she was arrived - swilling the wine down - and didn’t greet her or she me.

She addressed very few words to me - perhaps, that was supposed to hurt me? Nope it was a blessed relief. I think we said ten words to each other in all.

She was quiet, looked tiny and old and cowed. I have no idea whether she was trying to guilt trip us or felt embarrassed by her behaviour (pigs might fly) or maybe she realises that her behaviour is appalling (absolute swarm of pigs).

The terrifying bit was when she choked on some food and I thought ‘shit, hospital, her angling to stay here’ with flashbacks to the 10 weeks of hell of her staying here.

She was here for three hours and then off she went. The only sign of her normal mode was an ‘innocent’ enquiry as to whether my mum was staying longer. My mum popped back to do some DIY (superwoman) but that’s the kind of stupid games we end up playing with The Hag - lying about things so we don’t endure her spleen. But hey, for a little peace…

I feel really good that I’ve stood my ground and so has Mr Monkey that we don’t need this toxic behaviour isn’t acceptable.

We’ll probably have her back late August. With the human shield.

Oh, wait a minute the phone is ringing…funny how she’s just been upbeat on the phone but was poor old lady on Sunday. Hmmmm. She could hardly look at me on Sunday as she knows I’ve got the upper hand now and things will not be changing from that.

Thanks for everyone’s support. It does feel better. Xx

Thank you. This is all true. I know it, but I wish it wasn't the case. I was her scapegoat; she hurt me in ways that still affect me now. So I know there's not going to be any loving reconciliation and she won't be asking for my forgiveness. On the other hand, she is still my mum, whatever that means. If I maintained no contact at this time I think it would mean losing my whole family, because they wouldn't understand. They know she is difficult and dishonest and manipulative - but because I took the brunt of it all, they were able to avoid being hurt by her. So they don't understand, and they think I am over-sensitive and difficult for not wanting contact with her. They think it's as much my fault as it is hers, basically.

@openwaterswimming: that triangle. That's what is known as the Flying Monkeys. My family did that all the time. I could practially guarantee that whatever I told one person would be all over the sodding family grapevine within 24 hours, depending on who I spoke with. That despite the fact they all claimed to not speak to each other.

@beastlyslumber. Whether or not you contact her or not is up to you, and the reasons why you are estranged. I'm NC with my narc mother, and won't be breaking that. I expect to see an obituary for her at some point, but I won't be attending any funeral.

"She's still your mum". She gave birth to you. That makes her a mother, not a mum. If she's since behaved in ways that would have social services all over her, you don't have to feel any obligations at all.

@NCSistineChapel. It's okay. I had years of, "After everything we ever did for you.... how ungrateful!"Still NC. My extended family thinks the sun shines out of her backside. It doesn't.

@Doodlebug71 that’s exactly it - a biological status vs decent loving parenting. The exposure I’ve had to The Hag (toxic MIL) makes me realise we don’t owe the biological parent anything at all.

Well things have got bat shit here. I got a text last night from my mum saying that they had heard (!) I had been in hospital and was it true (?) I finally did what I should have done months ago and blocked her.

Today at work I get a call from my DD hysterical as Grandad has turned up to the youngest’s primary school where she was picking him up after school and walking him home. He demanded a hug and then gave her money and a birthday card- he told her he loved her and missed her and then grabbed her youngest brother and filled his pockets with sweets (!!!!!) and she was trying to ring me and grandad was trying to get the phone and begging her to keep it a secret(!) he gave her a letter from the hospital for me which had mistakenly gone to their address and tried to follow them home. He gave her a birthday card and a wad of cash and told her to remember him(!) I picked up a frantic phone call left work and drove home.

I’m ashamed to say I drove around there. I had a bag of all Their gifts and crap - eldest didn’t want her birthday card or the wad of cash so I rammed that in an envelope and I drove around there. They are fucking nuts. I got eldest to film me and put dash cam on and I went up to front door and dumped the black sack and posted the birthday card, cash and all the sweets through the letterbox and then turned around and walked away. My father came running out and said I love you periwinkle and I love the children and I kept walking didn’t look around and didn’t engage and drove home.

Just about to ring 101 and report it. He is a loon.

Police have taken it seriously and will be coming to see us

@EgoeswhereIgoes I know you're right and your message gave me the resolve to not respond, thank you. My mother has now tried with a similar tack- 'I'm sorry you feel that (classic from her), I hope your children do not hurt you as much as you've hurt us.' etc. Very much the attempted guilt trip @Doodlebug71 describes. I've not responded.

I can't work out who is the narcissist out of my parents. Dad has never felt guilt in his life (he told me once) delights in humiliating others and must win all conversations. He cannot tolerate a different viewpoint from his own and will use aggression, humiliation and belittlement to get people to stop disagreeing with him. He has been violent when angry in the past, but has mellowed somewhat now. He lies and rewrites history for his own ends and to help him win arguments. He believes that everyone who doesn't invite him to social gatherings etc is jealous of him and the absolute worst thing anyone can do is embarrass him in front of others- it's all about keeping up appearances and he can't tolerate the idea that someone might have gotten one over on him. He mercilessly persecuted my sister for her weight when she was a teen and she ended up with an eating disorder. He is paranoid and believes that he can't trust anything the BBC says or any Google results because they have 'an agenda'. My mother believes this too.

Mum also rewrites history, sees herself as having rights to her children and grandchildren and responds to any boundaries very negatively. She demands physical affection and lashes out verbally if denied. At one point I had actually seen her every weekend in a given month (sacrificing precious family time to do so, I might add) and the second I asked her not to do something (give my kid a packet of crisps before dinner) I was being unreasonable and denying her the chance to be a grandma properly. She is also obsessed with keeping up appearances and is more interested in being seen to be in the right than in doing right. She sees no problem with badmouthing me to the extended family whenever I displease her, but if either thought I'd disclosed anything about the inner workings of our family to relatives, they'd have a conniption. She has control issues and I gave her entire control of various elements of my wedding (cake, flowers etc) so that she'd let me get on with other bits and she still called me a 'Bridezilla' to others behind my back.

I don't suppose it matters which it is at the end of the day, but I find myself preoccupied with trying to figure it out.

I'm glad you had your mum to help you @MonkeyfromManchester. I'm sorry to hear about your mother @beastlyslumber and hope you're OK.

Wow @Iamaperiwinkle that sounds so stressful. Hope you are okay.

@Iamaperiwinkle you are amazing. They’ve crossed the bridge and you’ve absolutely pushed back. Good that police are taking it seriously. It’s harrassment. How dare they bring your children into this - they just want to emotionally abuse the next generation. Awful.

@NCSistineChapel sounds like your parents are both Narcs and abusive. I think some of them find each other. The upshot is that you don’t deserve to be controlled and abused.