June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Counselling has helped me - very very much. Boundaries in place etc

I’ve had a turn up a work, contact via work colleague who is their NDN and today a missed FaceTime call from the flying monkey (!). No idea why he rang. No idea what he wanted.

Advice ? Shall I just block FM’s number?

@Notmenottoday counselling has really helped me make boundaries.

The Hag is coming for Sunday lunch. She’s not set foot in this house since the 22 April. She thinks she’s punished us by not coming. Lol.
My mum is coming so 1) we can compare and contrast what normal parenting is VS WTAF 2) mum is the human shield.

I reckon that’ll be it til September. DIY and lots of weekends away in July and August.

@MonkeyfromManchester i love your strategy having cheery mum as a human shield. Her cheerfulness will infuriate the moaning hag. Totally get what you feel about phonecalls feeling like an invasion into your peaceful life. Even not taking the actual call doesnt fully protect you from the ill effects.

Does anyine else hate the internet and nosey nasty family. Ive blocked my m on everything but she friends my friends and spies on them and victoriously passes on info gleaned to me or dd. She just spies, doesnt cintribute or post photos. She spies in a nasty way so she can bitch about them, its vile i hate it. We run a bb and this week she read all our reviews and was telling me a listing of ours on a site we no longer use was wrong and thats why bookings are down. Ffs no idea and h said why were you googling us silence then 3 days later pupoet f phones to say they were just looking at local hotels. Fff off to the far side if fff. I loathe them and their vile, spleen and bilious natures. Hinestly nothing nice has ever come out of her mouth to me. Id happily never ever see either if them again. Thank fook for pages like this. Love to you all xx

@Coconut80 it’s brilliant. The Hag just doesn’t get why some people are preferred. She was moaning to Mr Monkey before about something and I just switch off. I’ve got Sunday to deal with but intend to have hangover.

The spying is horrible but it’s the recourse of the desperate. You’ve taken so many avenues away from them which is brilliant.

Her mousepad must be scratched to buggery with her rage.

@MonkeyfromManchester i look forward to your report of sunday lunch your way of writing makes me laugh but i do not doubt what a vile damaging woman she is.

Never thought of that re the spying, it is a positive as i give no info to them. She gets drunk and spies on everyone just vile. Thinking of you sunday xxx

@Coconut80 - Mr Monkey is getting good at closing her down. Not all the time but better.
‘I haven’t got anything to wear’ Have to agree she looks a fucking state. I’ve heard this for years, rejects all offers to go shopping, more martyr-dom. she’s nothing like predictable about what she carps on about. Are we supposed to whisk her to Dior in Paris?

MM: well, if you don’t feel like coming.
He noticed that she’s been nicer since her kick off on Saturday where she was HORRIBLE. Probably, got (some) of the spleen out and/or feels she’s being ‘listened’ to because she said she’s lonely and now she’s invited. She makes NO correlation between being vile and not being invited. Like you with your mum, it won’t dawn on her why she’s been rejected and she’s clutching at straws.

With The Hag, she doesn’t realise that Sunday’s ticket is one that won’t get renewed til late August. Oh, shit, just ‘remembered’ we’re on holiday. Whoops.

The digital spying is last ditch trying to control you. It’s desperation.

The problem with narcs as they don’t realise their behaviour has consequences and they scrabble around to get their power. It’s pathetic. A very wise soul on here explained ‘extinction outbursts’ to me where the fuckwits (like toddlers) ramp up the ante to elicit a response when they see their power being taken away. Think your mum is clutching at new tactics.

Hag probably thinks she’s won. No, she hasn’t. I’ve completely sussed her. She will dominate the conversation with misery or try to do. Problem is my mum is like Maria in The Sound of Music and there’s very little you can do in the face of that level of optimism and good cheer. Lol.

Can you cause an internet outrage where your mum lives?

Funny, it’s just isolated to your house, says BT.

Slip the guy a bundle of money.

Joking apart, it would piss me off royally. Xxx But good on you for reframing it. Marc's are flipping mental.

Full report from the Coercive Narc front line next week. I will be too trashed on Sunday to file my report from the war zone. Lol.

Xxx

@MonkeyfromManchester I know it’s a typo but I love the idea of an “internet outrage”. Good luck for Sunday - will be thinking of you.

Feeling generally pissed off today about the number of lies I know have been told about me, the friends I’ve lost as a result, and the fact that I’m now completely paranoid. I’ve just found myself texting a friend who is a friend of my sister(!) pleading with her not to pass any information on.

On the other hand, I actually got some genuine insights from my therapist yesterday, just thought I would share here as I know not everyone is lucky enough (although I can currently afford precisely one session a month). She basically led me to where I realised that I have no self-esteem, let others treat me like crap and actually can’t bear people being nice to me because that is what I am used to, bad treatment and scapegoating. Therefore I don’t feel safe with anything else because at least I know what to expect from abuse! I don’t know if this will be helpful to others but just thought I would share :)

Do you really think they dont get cause and effect. All 3 of her daughters keep her at arms length, half the village she has fallen out with. I def think the nasty attacks and cruel remarks are carefully planned to hurt. Stupid woman if she cant realise being a callous, critical, awful woman has consequences. Ongoing obsession with weight and being overweight is a moral failing they even started on dd when she was a toddler, utterly vile.

I like that you said they are grasping at straws for info, all 3 of us do extreme grey rock. She pumps the grandchildren for info..

Yes id live if she lost her wifi, hilariously she claims to be blind but is a dab hand online. You are very good hosting the hag who will moan about everything i imagine. Is she vain re clothes, mine is 81 and quite unwashed but thinks she looks fantastic wraring white stuff, amazing ego.
Good luck sunday play the hag bingo, they are utterly predictable. Horrible to have yoyr lovely home invaded by that cow. Much love kxx

@CeciledeVolanges thank you. Your therapist is fantastic. It’s horrible to hear that burden alone. So glad you are getting the right support. It will bring up stuff but bear with it. You deserve it.

@Coconut80 no, you’re right, they DO know. It’s my wishful thinking to think they don’t. They switch tactics, don’t they? It’s MAGIC (lol) that your mum could do all that spying with her eyesight, eh? Guess the blindness is a pity party to drag you and your sisters in? I can’t work out if the Hag is vain or the ‘clothes martyrdom, something else to wine about, to induce guilt’. She looks a fucking state in stained clothes - her flat, apart from ripped sofas and carpet, is immaculate - but doesn’t notice or, maybe, it’s some kind of statement. Fucking god knows. The vanity is expressed by centre of attention BS.

EVER TEMPTED TO SPILL RED WINE ON YOUR MOTHER?

Awful that she gets your children and friends involved in the games. They have no shame.

Hag yesterday got a call from her old friend.

“She’s not phoned for ages”
FFS Hag NEVER rings her or wider family. It is ALL ABOUT HER. More pity party.
MM just repeats she should ring people to counteract the loneliness. Pathetic.

thanks for the good wishes. Report pending. Love back at you, xxx

@CeciledeVolanges, congratulations on your insights⭐ I think these things can be breakthroughs, when you are finally able to see the truth there is no going back, onward Cecile!🦋
Mr Monkey is getting good at closing her down. Not all the time but better
So he is making progress, but it is gradual and inconsistent?I think this could work in his favour, it's harder for her to recognise and counter if it's gradual and not all the time😉

@EgoeswhereIgoes thank you. Unfortunately for me there was going back, leading to the total catastrophe that was this year, and the car crash that still is my mental health. The crippling guilt and the grief of not having parents in your life any more. Feeling so ashamed of what a terrible person I am for daring to do this. Knowing that I've lost friends because of it, that I might miss things like the death of my grandparents (I missed three family pets' deaths last time) and the constant fear of the lies and even the truths that will be circulating around our mutual friends and acquaintances as a result of this.

@CeciledeVolanges please dont think you are a bad person. From what ive read here it really was a matter if life and death for you regarding your family and the serious illness they triggered. I get the shame i totally do but you have nothing at all to be ashamed of. My psychologist said you can only feel shame if youd been shamed. Think back to when you first were shamed as a child, thats where its coming from. My was my mum realising i had peed on the carpet age 5, scared to go to toilet as csa gf. She yelled i was an animal and should live with animals it was terrifying. Cecile you sound a lovely kind, supportive and empathic person. You are in a period of adjustment. I rarely tell folk about my parents you feel somehow it reflects badly on you but it doesnt its not your fault and i for one think you are doibg fantastically well kxxx

[quote Coconut80]@CeciledeVolanges please dont think you are a bad person. From what ive read here it really was a matter if life and death for you regarding your family and the serious illness they triggered. I get the shame i totally do but you have nothing at all to be ashamed of. My psychologist said you can only feel shame if youd been shamed. Think back to when you first were shamed as a child, thats where its coming from. My was my mum realising i had peed on the carpet age 5, scared to go to toilet as csa gf. She yelled i was an animal and should live with animals it was terrifying. Cecile you sound a lovely kind, supportive and empathic person. You are in a period of adjustment. I rarely tell folk about my parents you feel somehow it reflects badly on you but it doesnt its not your fault and i for one think you are doibg fantastically well kxxx[/quote]
Well, it was life and death - the number of hospitalisations I've had, not to mention the suicide attempts, is pretty embarrassing - but my parents would say that was about me not them, in fact they would attribute it to the same mental illness that according to them is the reason I won't talk to them. What kind and empathetic person can turn their back on their parents, even at risk of missing the death of their grandparents (whom I do dearly love and am planning to visit tomorrow) especially when my mother has told me exactly the impact it had on her and what a terrible person I was the first time round?

@Coconut80 I didn't mean to be ungrateful by the way, the first time I read that it made me cry!

Not ungrateful at all. It is never easy ir straightforward. Please dont take on what your mum tells you you are its just her opinion and one you dont have to agree with. The whole reason you feel bad is because you are a decent person and try to do the right thing. You will feel crap but over time it will ease. Xx

Oh my God. Sorry I’ve been posting so much but I’ve just crossed my parents’ car at a traffic lights. Opposite directions, both at the front of the queue, I was on a bike. Currently having a massive panic attack. I knew this was likely as we both live in the same city but at opposite ends!

Try and breathe, no wonder you are panicking they will trigger you massively. Did they react when they saw you x

Hi all,

Never posted on one of these threads before but over the years, any time I have turned to Google to seek advice about how to deal with my mum inevitably one of the many stately home threads is near the top!

I wanted to ask if anyone here can recommend resources for someone working on boundaries please?

Last year after a particularly difficult incident with my mum I actually blocked her from being able to contact me by phone. This improved our relationship and was like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders. It lasted about a year when she caught me off guard with a guilt trip as she was about to get on a bus and I unblocked her. This was about the fourth time she'd outright asked. Anyway, since then I've gone from feeling I'd taken one step forwards to two steps back. Feeling a bit anxious and suffocated by her level of contact again.

I find counselling really useful which helped me on the path to setting some boundaries but I can't afford it at the minute and fear that I'm slipping back to how things were. There's some things coming up which I know are going to be huge boundary tests too!

Anyway, would really appreciate any website or book recommendations or anything else that has helped people with their boundaries. Thank you!

Oh and in case it's relevant to any recommendation, my mum is an alcoholic with various MH issues although I don't know what exactly. She was hospitalised for a few months during my childhood but has never told me what the diagnosis was. She tends to take on role of victim, makes mountains out of molehills, thrives on drama while vehemently claiming to detest it, never accepts personal responsibility for anything and is very aggressive and hostile when she's drunk. I could go on of course but that's the gist of it.

@LopsidedWombat sorry, I saw this this morning but was in the middle of a HUGE panic attack, but I want to reply as I can see nobody more experienced has checked in yet (they will be along soon with their great wisdom, I'm sure ).

For counselling, I keep being recommended to speak to a charity such as Mind or look at trainee therapists, who are well-supervised and extremely cheap. As far as books go, I would just have a look on Amazon for anything about narcissists, toxic parents, even look for books about boundaries - they exist! Sorry I can't recommend a specific title because I tend to just read and read until nothing stands out. There are even YouTube videos on the subject if you want a human voice.

However, my most important piece of advice is block your mother's number again. Please do it now. I can think of a thousand analogies but as soon as she can get in, your protective walls are breached and she can manipulate, guilt trip, attention seek, harass and generally bother you to her heart's content. Blocking is like putting that protective wall back up again. For people who like to play the victim, it also means they literally can't get you involved in their drama any more and have to find alternative sources of support. I have to say, as someone with severe MH problems myself, before I was really aware of my behaviour or how my background had influenced it, sometimes friends saying they needed a break from me or even leaving permanently would be the push I needed to find more help (and more, and more, but that's another story!) You know from experience it gives you peace of mind, and it will put an impermeable boundary up for you by default while you work on your own boundaries behind them.

Just by the by, I did find it slightly concerning that the Stately Homes threads are near the top of Google searches. I hope I haven't been outed as my posts here are revealing, but I suppose it is public...

@CeciledeVolanges Ugh, panic attacks are horrible!

Sorry to worry you about the search comment, it may help to know this was years ago (it is how I found mumsnet actually) and I was searching very specific things, trying to find people talking about their own experiences as I was having a few revelations at the time and found forums and reddit very helpful to read through!

I will definitely be blocking my mum again when she next has an episode. I find it easier for myself under those circumstances, not that I should have to justify it after all that has happened. Trouble is we do get along well and I like her as a person a lot of the time, that is what makes it all so difficult to navigate. She doesn't display many narc traits I don't think, she can be very caring and thoughtful and kind... but also she can be the most hostile and aggressive person I've met. A real Jeckyll and Hyde situation. I am of course the enabler, which I am working on! Thought I'd made good progress until the unblocking, doh...

Thank you for your reply and I hope you are feeling less anxious this evening

@LopsidedWombat I would honestly block her on your mobile today. Maybe leave her an avenue like your email or a letter, where you can read on your own time, if you really want, but mobiles are so immediate and demanding and if she has another episode you might be drawn in. When I first read your post I was ashamed, because I have such extensive mental health issues, I've been hospitalised, I have used alcohol to cope too, but then I realised I could use my experiences to your advantages. As someone who has been in the place of you and your mother, you need to be able to set out the boundaries of how she can contact you - if you want her to contact you at all - for yourself, not for her. We are strangers on the internet so I can't make you do anything but I would say stop the phone contact absolutely right now so you don't have to worry. If you want to keep up to date with her, give her an email or postal address. My mother has abused every channel so I don't want her to know how to contact me at all - I used to cry when she or my dad contacted me by email - but at least introduce some latency and some autonomy for you, please? When she has another episode it might be so quick and dramatic that you can't block her.

Hi,

I haven't posted on one of these threads before so I hope nobody minds.

I have a very difficult relationship with my father. He was abusive to my mum and I'm slowly realising to us too. I had counselling for PND this year and he came up. A lot. I did briefly stop contact with him while I was pregnant and it was so peaceful. Lockdown helped too as he was being very cautious and wouldn't see is at all (when restrictions allowed). Now that things are going back to normal he's back in touch more often and I don't know what to do.

To add more challenges my sister doesn't speak to him at all and hasn't in years. This means that she doesn't want him knowing details about her life which I completely respect but it means I have to be on constant guard when speaking to him so I don't say the wrong thing.

We have a 19 month old DS and I'm finding it hard to make sure they have a relationship of sorts but keeping him at arms length to make sure he can't do any harm.

I can't bring myself to cut him off for a few reasons, partially because he's the only father I have, partially because I'm the only child still in contact and partially because I know the fall out would be enormous and I just don't think I could cope.

Your experience would be much appreciated to navigate this.

Hello @Mylittlesandwich and welcome. Only you can decide what's right for you. What I would say is that many of us here realised that there was a pattern - no matter what we did, we would still be on the receiving end of abuse and/or unreasonable behaviour. The only way to stop the hurt was to stop the contact.

Fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) is what keeps us stuck in the unhealthy relationship. Family dysfunction runs runs very deep and we have been trained into it since childhood.

Be kind to yourself. Decide what is right for you. Prioritise yourself over your parent. Maybe it's not a great idea for your 19mo to have a relationship with a GF who is an abuser anyway.

Set your boundaries and stick to them.

@LopsidedWombat - welcome. You are among friends here. We all understand what you are going through. I agree with @CeciledeVolanges that you should block your mum so she cannot phone you.

@MonkeyfromManchester - thinking of you today - good luck with Hag Lunch.

@Mylittlesandwich
This man is a bully, you will have to be very firm do not open the door even a little crack because he will get his foot in it. You should do exactly the same as your sister, if she can do it you can do it.
I would insist that I even though the restrictions are ending I'm going to stay isolated, block all channels of communication, ignore him and keep on ignoring, the longer you go on the easier it gets you just have to stay firm.
Focus on how peaceful it was when you cut him out before, you want that all the time don't you?
If you waver and start focusing on the fact that he's your only Dad etc you're only making it harder for yourself make one decision and stick to it.
He will know that getting control over your child is away to get in control of you and that's why he is drawn in.

Hello, and apologies if this is very obvious, but is there a separate thread for people who are NC with adult siblings but ok with parents and, if so, can you point me to it please?