June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Pegsonstrings and @Mysocalledmom
Imo the only solution to the problem is to distance yourself from your mother's with a view to completely cutting them out because they will never change, this brings new problems because it will make you feel uncomfortable and guilty, the guilt is misplaced but that doesn't stop you feeling it.
I find it helpful to first reduce the channels via which they can communicate with you, ignore any phone calls text messages voicemails and keep them to email only. When you reply by email only discussed objects that you want to talk about.
It's hard but it's the only way, they will not change and you have to protect yourself and preserve your mental energy so that you can form positive bonds with people.

I think she literally sees me as her friend which I don’t want to be. I have my own family and my own job and don’t have the emotional headspace to keep dealing with her. I wish she’d get a job or some friends but she has neither
I would say it's more that she regards you as a kind of pet, a thing which belongs to her and with which she can do as she please. She does not have the ability to form proper relationships with people because she is unable to compromise or regulate her own emotions, instead she has you as a 'captured person' who she believes is obliged to engage with her.
It's very unfortunate for her that she is so damaged but unless she engages with proper help she will never improve. You have to distance yourself and save yourself, if anything you are enabling her (although of course not intentionally) the only way she will help herself is if she is forced to because you are not there to pick up the pieces. She reaches for you when she is stressed like an alcoholic reaches for a drink, if you are not there she has two choices sink or swim, please do not enable this third choice where she climbs onto you and slowly drowns you.

@Mysocalledmom
You say that she behaves like a mother to your brother's, so (imo) she's positioned you as the one who has to take all the shit, whose job is to prop her up so that up so she has the energy to behave properly towards your brothers and then she can tell herself that she is a good mother and a good person (ignoring the fact that she treats you like shit)
I'm not saying that this is necessarily an entirely conscious/deliberate strategy, but (it seems to me that) this is what's going on, these are the dynamics of the situation.
She's kind of a vampire sucking the life out of you to extend her life and extend her reach. Stop letting her do it, stop prostrating yourself, you are worth more, live your own life, stop giving your life force away for free to her.

I guess the thing I struggle with most is that she is a decent person. As a mother she is totally shit but as a person she is nice. For eg she loves animals and donates to charities.
Yeah it does feel like she’s sucking the life out of me. It’s the fact she does nothing to help herself. I’ve offered to help her get a job, I’ve offered to let her stay with me temporarily while she leaves her relationship but she will never do anything to help herself or change her life.
The irony is that she hates her own mother (but has devoted her life to being her mothers skivvy) but is turning into her. For eg her mother is obsessed with her health and so is my mother.
I have reduced contact but am going to try to reduce it more for the sake of my sanity.

She is careful to maintain the facade of a decent person, kindness to animals and donations to charity require much less effort and self-sacrifice than does being a good mother.
She's trying to turn you into a version of herself... a person who hates her mother but feels obliged to be her unpaid servant.
Stop letting her do it.

Well I can guarantee there is no way I will ever be her skivvy. At the moment we live close to each other but my DH and I plan to move to a different area in the next few years which will help. Is it awful that I sometimes fantasise about her needing help in her old age and me refusing to provide any? I’ve already decided my brothers can take care of her. That will be her punishment for not being a decent mother to me.

Mysocalledmom

Please heed the wise words of egos here.

I would move sooner rather than later actually, certainly not in a few years. DO not leave any forwarding address; go off grid re mother here.

It is really not possible to have any sort of relationship with someone this disordered of thinking. I would also read around cluster B disorders like NPD to see how much of this fits in with your own mother's behaviours. These types do not have (or even want) friends for good reason. No-one other than those who have received the special training i.e the now adult children of same actually bother with them. She is also doing the, "aren't I a good person" sthick with regards to giving to charities and the like; image to the outside world is all important to abusive people. My late FIL rabbited on about the importance of family and being nice to people; the only person he ever cared about was his own self. He really could not have given a monkeys for anyone else.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and you have also been made the scapegoat for all her inherent ills. Making you her confidant too was and remains inappropriate. You do not really have boundaries re her either mainly because mother has encouraged you not to have any; you are an extension of her. Toxic crap like this can and does go down the generations (I note without surprise your mother hates her own mother) and to your credit this dysfunctional has stopped with you.

Do reduce all contact with her; having any form of interaction with her is not doing you any good. So what if she gets upset or more likely becomes enraged at your lack of devotion to her; she has never given you any real consideration whatsoever. Your therapist is correct; she has not progressed emotionally beyond mid teens. She had a choice when it came to you and she chose the same old that got dished out to her in childhood. You perhaps remind her of her ex; a man whom she has always hated. Your brothers are her favoured golden children but that is a role not without price either.

And no it is not awful not to want to provide any care for her going forward. Your mother would also find fault with that too.

Its not your fault she is like this nor have you made her this way. Let go of any and all residual help that she will change. Deal with your fear, obligation and guilt through therapy and see a therapist skilled in parental abuse and recovery.

Thankyou so much for all your replies, they all make a lot of sense.
I work hard to be a decent mother to my own children and made it a rule that I never talk to them about my own adult problems. I simply can’t imagine me moaning to my daughter about my relationship with my DH. Something my mother does with me every time she sees me. My therapist said my mother treats me as her “emotional crutch” which I refuse to be anymore. I think the turning point came at the weekend when she started crying to me again about how shit her life is, how she’s going to have a nervous breakdown and I just sat there repeating the same advice. People have in the past tried to pursue friendships with her but she shuts them down. I can’t be her friend anymore.

For your own sake here you do need to walk away from your mother. She will otherwise continue to drag you down with her into her pit. Cease indeed to be your mother's emotional crutch. Keep talking to your therapist.

People have in the past tried to pursue friendships with her but she shuts them down. I can’t be her friend anymore
presume because she is unable to be reciprocal, she can only take, you could start with only engaging very briefly and shutting things down as soon as she gets into 'that mode'?
I've found that for me any contact just opens old wounds, none of it is salvageable, but I dont feel that (completely understandable) 'hunger' for supportive parents which I read from some posters here. I just never felt much of a bond, spent my whole life trying to shake the fuckers off tbh!

@Mysocalledmom are you me? Honestly your post resonated a LOT so I absolutely feel your pain.
My mum too was a young single mum who used me as an emotional crutch from a young age. I had to listen about all her problems, about what an awful person my father was, and it was like she spent my whole life trying to get me to feel sorry for her. The guilt weighed me down so much, to the point that only aged 40 and with two small children of my own on top of work, normal family stress etc I just cracked...I developed compassion fatigue...I just couldn't listen to any moaning any more.
She never wanted to do anything to fix any of her problems. She also put me in a parent role not only to her but my younger sibling and then blamed me later when I "wasn't caring enough" in that role. I was also subject to sexual and physical abuse at the hands of one of her boyfriends which she now minimises and refuses to validate any of my feelings about it. Her response is "I've said I was sorry" but I now know that her telling me she's sorry all the time but never changing her behaviour was just selfish, it was looking for forgiveness but meanwhile I never (until now) felt able to be angry because I was so worried about her feelings. I never wanted to upset her, so I minimised the abuse too.
Now I find her unbearable to deal with because she cries, complains to my sister who has now cut ties with me because of my alleged cruelty towards our mother (I was not, I merely said I didn't want to listen to any more moaning).
She has no friends and no family nearby and this (on top of Covid) is used as an excuse to load guilt upon me. Everyone thinks I'm a bad person. Even friends give me the whole "oh but she's your mum" thing.
But I had to distance myself from her for my mental health. I ended up on anti-depressants because I couldn't take the huge weight of her dependency, her loneliness and her constant criticism of me. Because nothing I ever did was good enough. My childhood (or lack of) taught me to disassociate in order to survive but then as an adult I was blamed for being "too cold", "too uncaring" "not like your sister who is a very warm hearted person" and other such BS.
Also many of the posts on these topics centre on a narcissist, but my mother doesn't really fit that bill. She's not the centre of attention, she isn't particularly controlling, she's just very weak, refuses to take ownership of anything, is always like a deer in the headlights. She never listens, is like a giant child. It's getting worse as she gets older too. Of course I feel guilty that she raised us alone (I hear a lot about that) but I carried that for 40 years.
Anyway that was a bit of a ramble but just to say I completely empathise. I found some books helpful, Dr. Nicole Perera "How to do the work" on being a child who was not allowed any boundaries. Also there's a podcast called "Navigating no contact with toxic parents" by Tracy Principi...it is eye opening. She has an episode about "why siblings have a different experience" and about being the family scapegoat. I find it incredibly vindicating.
Also I understand how difficult no contact is. I'm not even there...just low contact, as I feel horrendous guilt about the grandparent-grandchild thing (the kids love her and keep asking where she is). But I'm down to a visit every few months and I rarely answer the phone.

openwaterswimming

Keep going and keep on lowering all forms of interaction with your mother.

The only people who tend to still bother with people like your mother are the ones who have had the special training; ie the now adult children of such a parent. I would think she is someone who has an untreated - and untreatable - personality disorder and she certainly has a lot of the traits of the narcissist present (her emotional development ceasing around the age of six, she put you in a parent role/confidant role, having a favoured golden child in the shape of your sister to name but three red flags amongst many many others). Regardless though of why she is the ways she is, it is NOT your fault and you did not make her that way.

Children need emotionally healthy models as grandparents, would you yourself describe your mother as at all emotionally healthy?. No you would not. Remember that if she is too toxic/difficult or otherwise too batshit for YOU to deal with its the same deal for your kids too. I doubt if your kids actually love her as much as you think they do; its likely not the case at all. They are way too young to realise they are being manipulated and or otherwise being treated as inanimate objects to bash you as their mother with. She could well treat your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been treated. With your mother there is no real interaction; its like watching a repeat of a tv show you've always hated. Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend, hell no. Your mother is no different.

openwater can we form our own support group?!! I feel like I’ve met a kindred spirit. I’ve never known anyone to have the same awful relationship with their mother. I too experienced sexual abuse from one of her boyfriends but we never discuss it. My childhood is completely off limits probably because she realises how awful it was. When I was 12 she was pregnant but wanted me to pretend I was pregnant and pass her baby off as mine. This was to avoid the shame of having 4 kids by 4 different men. I can’t ever imagine thinking of that idea let alone asking my dd to do that.
I also recognise the giant child analogy. My mother (probably because she never had a childhood herself) wants me to take care of her & look after her. She moans all the time about how no one takes her on holiday & no one takes her anywhere & no one invites her out for a meal. By “no one” she means me. As a grown woman she should be doing all these things herself or with her boyfriend or with friends if she had any. Yesterday she rang me to ask the opening times of our local hairdresser. I told her to google it! Just another example of her wanting me to take care of her.
Like you I also feel the guilt. Guilt that she sits in her house with a boyfriend she despises, with no job and no friends but expecting me to be her everything. She even relies on me with her online games. I introduced her to a scrabble and trivia app and now everyday if I don’t play a game with her she “nudges” me online even when she knows I’m at work!
Like you my friends don’t get it. My best friends mum died recently so I can’t moan to her about how crap mine is as she just thinks I’m lucky to have a mum. Other friends think because my mum always wants to spend time with me (so I can be her therapist) that we must be really close. I find people who have more “normal” mothers don’t understand just what awful mothers some of us are lumbered with.
Thanks for the podcast recommendation I will definitely give that a listen

Hi ladies ive found help here many times before. I know this may seem petty or not worse worrying about but those of us who have vile, hypercritical mums will hopefully get it. My dd 16 got her scottish higher exam results and has done really well. Basically stuck in her room, stressed, over tested etc. Throughout it m was shell be fine shes clever no empathy to the loss of socialisation, hobbies and teaching herself essentially. Ive had so many lovely congratulatory msg from friends and family saying well done and how proud i must be. Total radio silence from m and it is on purpose it would kill her to say well done to me. Why oh why at age 50 am i still hurt by her behaviour shes never given me a compliment or praise in my whole life. What is it about these women that cant congratulate their daughters even engagements, degrees, pregnancies. I feel shit and so annoyed i am letting her upset. Not seen her for a glorious 15 months long may it continue. Much love to all you wonderful women on this thread, we are amazing xxxxx

@Coconut80 not sure how helpful this is but first, congratulations to your amazing daughter pulling off that performance under these incredibly difficult conditions. As the decent people in your life have clearly said, you must be really proud. It sounds like your mother has such an enormous and fragile ego that it really would kill her in some spiritual way to praise someone else; it's because people like her cannot believe that anyone else has worth, matters or can achieve anything. Don't be annoyed at yourself that she's upset you, your reaction is natural, but also let yourself be pleased with yourself (terrible English, sorry) that you are behaving so much better towards your own daughter and she won't suffer what you feel because of that.

@cecile thankyou very much for your thoughtful message and kind words. Your advice is spit on, much love xx

Spot on

@EgoeswhereIgoes most recently I had pretty concrete evidence that my mum had been through some love letters I kept from a previous relationship that meant a lot to me. I was nearly physically sick. My dad was there when I found out and said "bad things happen in the world, and this is not one of them". I suppose he's right on a cosmic scale but I feel so violated by it.

@Mysocalledmom two really quick things - if your mum involved you in her marriage/relationship problems, that can actually be regarded as a form of sexual abuse in some circles. It is really nasty and exploitative and just shows how immature and unable to handle herself your mother is. It should definitely never happen. Parents should protect their children from what is going on in their own, adult, relationships.
Secondly, my mother is much kinder to animals than she is to people. I am actually much better with animals than people because I'm on the autism spectrum and find animals much simpler and easier to read and their motivations and reactions make sense to me! But if you're a narcissist, I assume animals are much easier to be kind to because they tend to be easily trained, "grateful", never talk back, have simple needs and often seem to adore you uncritically. None of this, by the way, means that they can understand that other people might like animals too! I more or less got through the most fraught years of my childhood and adolescence because of two or three wonderful ponies (yes, my family is affluent, sorry) and have never been allowed to display or acknowledge grief about their being put down. I wasn't even allowed to say goodbye or be there when they went, and have since been obliged to acknowledge my mother's terrible grief and sacrifice, console her that she did the right thing having them put down, and hide my feelings completely.
Sorry, bit of a rant.

Morning all. Sorry I've not been here but I've been moving (!). We are out of the work accommodation into an absolutely lovely house back in the town where the kids schools are. It takes them just over 30 mins to walk home now. Work were fab and charged me much less and no bills for the staff accommodation then I thought.

I managed to rent a beautiful house long term rental. And we moved in pretty much straight away. We then had to move stuff out of storage and currently surrounded by millions of boxes.

Just over a two weeks ago my father turned up at work - demanding to see me. Security wouldn't let him in and he got a bit cross with a 'dont you know who I am stance ' to which my colleague replied - no have no idea who you are but I know periwinkle and you aren't coming in. Apparently he was hovering around outside for 30 mins about the time I might turn up for work - but of course I was living at work so there much earlier. He had an envelope with 4 letters in it and demanded to hand it to me by hand and was told ever so politely to f off but they took the envelope and handed it on. So this was the post they were demanding I arrange to pick up (?) A gardeners world magazine and a couple of bank statements (!). He didn't drop my TV off though did he.

I didn't respond. Then next door neighbour came to see me at work and apologised but said they have popped around (,this was a week after the turning up at work!) To drop off a single letter and to enquire how I was. She took the letter and said nothing but was civil.

I haven't engaged with either contact. During the last few weeks eldest had a birthday and they didn't even text her. She loathes them. But is happy to live back home.

We live a 30 min walk from school and 20 min from them. They have no idea.our new neighbours are lovely. Very quiet.

Well done @Iamaperiwinkle - that's brilliant news. Wishing you every happiness in your new home. Keep those borders defended!

@CeciledeVolanges - you go ahead and rant as much as you want to. We all hear you and understand the depth of your frustration.

@Coconut80 - I'm not sure the hurt ever goes away. Our dysfunctional families cause damage that runs very deep.

Solidarity to everyone here.

@Iamaperiwinkle what fantastic news. I can’t (well, I can!) believe your dad turned up at your workplace. These people have no boundaries and no sense that this is embarrassing. They are off the scale.

The Hag (toxic coercive narcissist mother in law) - I’ve not seen her since 22 April and spoke to her for 2 minutes on the phone (Mr Monkey was on the phone to her, I won’t ring her) to thank her for some £ for my birthday - has excelled herself yet again.

Since the lifting of some restrictions in May we’ve been away fir the weekend twice. Once to my mum’s and once with my mum to Wales (our bubble featured the Hag and not my chilled mum).

The Hag now expects a daily phone call and Mr Monkey is trying to wean her off these - it’s not about anything less than her getting her narc supply and control (other son is phoned constantly or expected to phone her) so the weekends away are a perfect reason not to phone her. It didn’t go down well when we went to my mum’s for five days.

It went down less well when we went to Wales.
MM: I’ll ring you on Tuesday when we get back.
Nasty voice: oh, you will, will you? That’s good of you to ring your own mother.

Yesterday MM and I had some friends found. Football, food, wine. We’ve not been in the same house as these dear friends for 16 months. Lovely older friends who are old in a positive, you only live once way just like my mum and the Hag knows them, too.

. MM had told Hag we were having our friends round from 4pm and he would be busy and ring her on Sunday.

Hag rings at 4pm on the dot and starts the age old game.
“Well, I thought you’d at least ring me earlier”
“No, I said I would ring you on Sunday”
“You won’t ring your own mother. I can’t believe you won’t do that after all the things I’ve done for you.”
MM has got really good at pushing back and firmly says I told you it would be on Sunday.
Then when she doesn’t get the profuse apology and ‘no, you’re right, I’m a terrible son’ she switches from emotional abusive to the poor me Victorian orphan routine like a flick has been switched.
“I’m here just staring at four walls in my flat with no one to talk to”
This was her life - the life she doesn’t have to lead: she has grandchildren she never phones, other family, a church that has a social club for older people - before lockdown.
MM: “well, you know the answer to that. We’ve told you, your doctor has told you.”
Hag: “I’m just on my own. I don’t see anyone. I don’t even see my own son”
And on and on and on.
Deliberately done to piss on our day. The “own” is used constantly. It reveals how she does think she owns her sons. She’s absolutely toxic.

MM is now great at batting back. Before he would just be a sponge and internalise it.

“This is all done to make me feel bad and I’ve got nothing to feel bad about.”

I feel our home is made toxic when she rings. It’s all very deliberate and spiteful. Ended up having a great day despite Narc Showtime. But it does - as it’s designed to do - make me feel on edge until the third glass of wine kicks in.

Before Narc Showtime, MM had said we do need to have her round for Sunday lunch.. The new trick is that we have my mum round too and she is the Human Shield. My mum thinks this is hilarious and thinks the Hag’s behaviour is appalling so she goes into JOLLY mode.

I just thought for a moment that we could have the Hag round next weekend as my mum (very social) has a free Sunday and then thought no, this will be read as a reward for her awful behaviour.

I just want her to fuck off to the ends of the earth. She’s an 84 year old bag of spleen.

Hi @MonkeyfromManchester - random thought... Does The Hag call on the landline? Have you considered changing your landline number so she can only call MM's mobile? Or blocking her number on your landline?

I used to feel physically sick whenever the house phone rang. Nobody has my landline number now and it's such a relief.

@Sicario it is a horrible feeling, isn’t it? It’s like the fuckers are with you.

She always rings his mobile, which has a teeth clenchingly awful ringtone. That ring tone could be Taylor Swift recorded when she gave a free performance in our front room and I would still have that shuddering reaction when The Hag rings.

When he didn’t pick up, she used to ring mine.

She’s stopped that now as I hung up on her during one of her outbursts. That time she rang me back, I ignored her and then she tried a text which just arrived blank! She was probably on the floor screaming with rage and fucked up the text.

She has never contacted me again.

If she doesn’t get him to answer his mobile, she then starts to ring our landline which I ignore.

I can’t wait for the conversation when MM tells her that he’s going back to work in the office three days a week and that because of his commute he won’t be ringing her on those days. He sometimes gets home at 8 and she goes to her lair at 7pm to sleep.

Mind you, that didn’t stop her before as she would ring him countless times a day at work in his highly demanding charity job working with extremely vulnerable people.

She doesn’t give a shit about anyone but herself.

Finally got an appointment for some counselling, starts in 3 weeks, hoping I can get some practical advise on how to deal with this all.

Had a bizarre conversation with M today, she doesn’t cope well with challenging situations, anything which isn’t easy and straightforward sends her into a tailspin. She was ranting about how useless a salesperson had been when dealing with her and was incredulous that things hadn’t been explained to her fully and they hadn’t disclosed certain details about the sale. She went on and on, a complete rant and was talking about arranging time off to visit the location and follow up in person. She asked when I thought she had booked time off for? (Strange question), I said “I don’t know” she got angry and said “I’ve asked you a question, when do you think I would have booked it for?” I stayed calm and said “I don’t know, and I don’t know what you are getting at” she eventually explained when she had booked time off and the reason was around month end commitments for her work, I don’t know why that was relevant for me to be expected to know or why it would be relevant. Or why she wanted me to guess when she had booked time off?

She then went on to talk about travel she has to do and said she is “scared” of public places, she isn’t. She went abroad, through her own choice twice last year, in the midst of a pandemic, that isn’t someone who is scared of public places. She seems to make things up regularly and comes out with sweeping statements, I can’t quite work out the purpose. In this case I felt like she was being manipulative and hoping I’d offer to help with transport, I could be wrong but I wouldn’t bite.

She then explained she’d read some instructions wrong and said the reason was probably because she thinks she is dyslexic. Again, she has never mentioned this before. And again I didn’t pick up on it, I just went “uh huh” to acknowledge I’d heard her. She then got angry again and said “are you busy doing something else?” I said “no, I’m just listening” and she said “you sound like your not listening and you’re just giving platitudes” I said “I’m listening” I don’t get her.

Sorry, bit of a rant from me. Does anyone else experience this? She talks regularly about people “gas lighting” her, but the examples she gives doesn’t make sense. I think she’s heard the phrase and just repeats it for effect. Her behaviour is almost juvenile, like making things up for attention.