June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

All Quiet On The Western Front. Extremely limited contact with The Hag - vile mother in law - since 22 April. She’s not been in our home, I’ve not been in her slum. I feel so much better.

She twists anything and everything to cause hurt or an argument. Mr Monkey is now 100% pushing back. He just shuts her down.

He’s just had a phone call which was her attempt at toxicity. He’s taking her for a flu jab tomorrow. He’s got a Boots appointment earlier than the GP one BECAUSE HE’S KIND. He’s then taking her out for lunch at a pub near us - nothing fancy and she’s been there.

Cue her insisting he come round 45 minutes before the appointment (10 minutes in a taxi) he’s now seeing this for what it is: control (he didn’t before) Then it’s
“Well, you won’t want me to go out for lunch with you”
MM: “all I need is your answer. Yes or no. It’s not complicated”
Hag: “yes, I’ll come.”

She perked up considerably knowing I wasn’t going. I would stab her in the head with my fork as I know she would start major toxicity and bait me if I was there. Much better to be here with a good book.

It is now nearly 5 months since she’s been here. I can heartily recommend low contact.

You need to keep both children away from your mother going forward.

She will now likely go on, if you allow it to happen, to mess with both your children’s heads. They are too young to realise they are being manipulated and she could well start picking a favourite and pitting one against the other. Also if she is too toxic or otherwise difficult
for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your children as well. Your mother “loves” your daughter mainly and simply because she is a good source of narcissistic supply. Your mother has made the terrible choice not to love and her self hatred knows no bounds. She will also use your eldest if she does not already, to get back at you. Children at this age are not known for a long attention span and you would also be protecting your children from Bad Things (your mother) if you fill their lives with emotionally healthy and good role models. Gratitude also is a good antidote for loss.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded (like your dad).

She installed that guilt button in you along with the fear and obligation buttons. Do you think she feels guilt for how she has treated you and in turn your eldest child, no not at all.

Deal with all and any guilt you have via therapy, find a BACP registered therapist and interview such people carefully and at length before picking any particular one. These people are like shoes and you need to find someone who fits with your approach. Have a look also at the Out of the FOG website.

You will also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your parents , your mother in particular, rather than the one you actually got.

You are also going to have to let go of any and all hope that she will ever change. This is who she is and it’s not your fault she is like this. Your brother and you did not make her that way, her parents did that lot of damage. What if anything do you know about her childhood, that often gives clues.

Mistyblue - congratulations on your pregnancy!

Will leave the keeping toxic parents out of your own parenting dynamic to more knowledgeable posters. Will say, though, that threatening suicide as a control technique is classic emotional abuse and always unacceptable. Actually suicidal people don't do it, people with massive egos who will say whatever they've calculated will hurt, often will. If you were needing a good reason to cut/limit contact, you've got one. Well, you've got many.

Hope you can carve out that time when baby is here so she cannot intrude and 'bond'. I would have a good think about how that is going to work ahead of time so she can't pull any of her tricks and schemes to get into your home when you're vulnerable and looking after a newborn.

Hello everyone. I've named changed as I thought ot might out me but I am a regular here. Hope you are all well.

Yesterday I had a huge kick in the guts. I am struggling. I have a fractured relationship with my parents (mainly dm but dad didn't really support me and actually treated me badly a few years ago when I got married as I was used as a scapegoat and I pulled away)

So I have gone lower contact. Weekly visit rather than a few times a week. Basically I was criticised heavily and I got the blame for 'splitting up the family' whenever I pulled away
My brother showed my mum and dad a text that said I was hurt. They twisted it. Screamed at dh. Things have never been right.

A few years ago my other brother separated from his wife due to her cheating (their own business but it's relevant). My parents have had little so do with his ex wife and called her neglectful and the kids were not washed and fed. Drama.

Yesterday my brother and the wife had a weekend away booked and my parents were minding their dc and I found no kids there. The ex wife my parents 'hated' were now minding them.

This might not all make sense. I am in such a state. I live closer and would happily have the children. Its like they see me as the enemy. Its all mind games. I cannot understand. They think more of a cheating ex than me. What are they saying about me.

I am afraid that they tell people I have mental issues as that is what they said when I went low contact.

@Snowdropsandbluebells welcome. You will get tons of support here. Keep going on the low contact - ignore the jibes. They are clutching at straws.

Had a classic Hag moment today. She’s been asking about Christmas. In her scenario, my mum goes to my brother’s in Nottingham so she can control every thing and make it all about her. Last year during lockdown I actually overheard her saying we can get a takeaway if Monkey doesn’t fancy cooking. She threw a strop and ended up sulking in her lair.

So, this is the woman who resents me, my family and the life we’ve worked (hard) for. Today my mum starting making Xmas plans. Basically me and Mr Monkey move in for two weeks and have a great time. My dad died 12 years ago and my mum loves having us there. It’s like a B&B with constant wine.

Mr Monkey tells The Hag. You can hear the disappointment/ resentment in her voice.

Then “how long are you going for?” “two weeks”, says Mr Monkey. “how long am I going for?” “Christmas Day and going home Boxing Day” “oh” (code for massive resentment) and “is that all?”

Fuck off. We are not The Hag Hotel. She doesn’t even turn up with a bottle of wine.

Then she rings back later. “Can Xxx - Hag’s slave son - come?”
He never comes. He gets a blessed day off. So fucking rude. No consideration as to where he would sleep, is it OK, picking him up, driving him home (no way with his disabilities could he do a 40 mile round trip journey)

She’s fucking vile. Hopefully, she’ll throw a strop and end up eating a microwave meal in her lair.

Then she moaned about her carers who come 3 times a day.. They stay for 30 minutes to ensure older people have some social contact.
“I don’t know why they bother”

Why would she say “isn’t that nice? Must be lovely for isolated people to have someone to talk to”

Hag is the only person in Hag Universe. Incredible.

Oh, second classic of the day.

I went with my mum to John Lewis to take something back, have lunch etc.

Come back home and The Hag rings Mr Monkey.

“So, what you've done today, son”

“Cleaned. Monkey was out with her mum”

“Oh, you must be really, really tired”
Lays it on with the trowel for five minutes.

There's some game there about her “reminding” him that his life with me is constant slog. And I do fuck all but go shopping like a Cheshire Housewife.

I don't do housework, Mr Monkey does. I pay for holidays, overpay the mortgage etc.

We’re totally fine with the division of labour. The house would look like a bombsite if I was in charge.

When The Hag was here, she would walk past the spare room where I work and say loudly to Mr Monkey “is monkey asleep?” 2pm in the afternoon.

I wanted to kill her one day when she was here, as if it was Hag Daycare, and I was hoovering.

“You’ve missed a bit.”

I proceeded to hoover for half an hour so she couldn’t hear the TV, I “couldn’t” hear what she was whining about and she sat glowering on the sofa.

Good evening - I have had a realisation over the last 24 hours and this is the only place I feel I can share. The penny has dropped that my DF is also narcissistic, as well as my DM (the ignoring type). I had a recent family gathering and he showed not one bit of interest in myself or my children. He lectures me about himself and how he feels. He puts me down constantly insinuating that I’m not a good mum, to my children. Recently told me I look hideous in a photograph and that I looked like a witch. I recently achieved a degree and he just said “oh okay” no well done or anything ( I did it whilst caring for 3 children) he just tells me how hard he’s had life. He gets offended if I switch off when he’s lecturing. It’s like he wants me to mother him and tell him well done. I never got any praise growing up and received no emotional support at all. He was very aggressive when I was a child, he never hit us but he made us feel like he could at any moment, he used to delight in whispering and suddenly shouting so we were terrified, then he’d laugh. I’m now terrified if anyone shouts and can’t deal with it. He is not a nice person. My children find him strange. I’m suddenly realising my parents were both narcissists and I don’t know what to do. I feel like an emotional wreck at the moment. There’s so much more to tell but I don’t know where to start. Sorry for the jumbled ranting and thanks for reading.

Hi @Newleafturned

‘ I’m suddenly realising my parents were both narcissists and I don’t know what to do.’

It can be quite a shock to realise your parents are narcissistic or toxic . If you were able to ‘observe’ his behaviour that’s a good sign as it means you are separating yourself emotionally.

What would you like to do? More importantly what would you like to do that helps ‘you’ feel safe while you unpick the emotional quagmire that you are facing?

Hi @therealsmithfield

Thank you for your kind response. I have known for a while my mum is a narcissist, of the ignoring type. I’m going through a period of LC. I posted a few pages back. I always knew my dad was aggressive but only just realised he’s never ever cared for me and my brother and thinks he’s had things worse than anyone else. He had no father growing up and often lectures us about how he’s had things hard therefore we’re not ever allowed to talk about any concerns we may have. He puts me down to gain strength himself. He bad mouths my brother and his children to me and I hate it. I really dislike being around him. I have been LC with home for a long time and only see him a handful of times per year. The way he likes it and also the way I like it. I’m not sure where to go from here. Keep even lower contact or just go NC. His partner is very nice and bubbly but enables his behaviour - he’s opinionated, judgemental and aggressive and everyone he meets backs away. She just laughs it off… his favourite thing to call us as kids was “thick” “numbskull” I would never dream of saying that to my children. I grew up believing I was thick and would never amount to anything. I’ve just gained a first class honours degree - I’m not boasting but It taught me that it’s not me, i can be ok if I put my mind to it, it was my parents that let me and my brother down. I had a dream last night that I went back to visit myself as a child and I mothered her. So many of you have been through this and it feels safe to be here with you all. Thanks for your kindness.

newleafturned

re this part of your comment:-
"I have been LC with home for a long time and only see him a handful of times per year. The way he likes it and also the way I like it. I’m not sure where to go from here. Keep even lower contact or just go NC. His partner is very nice and bubbly but enables his behaviour"

I would personally now have no further contact or at the very least further lower all interactions to zero sum. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone like your dad. Not at all surprised to read about the partner either; people like this really cannot do relationships so the people they have a relationship with tend to be either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

It causes deep pain and damage for your DCs seeing you degraded and subjugated.

Even if you keep still with a rictus grin they will sense and internalise the toxicity they are seeing and experiencing which will leave them confused scared and anxious.

They should never be in such and environment and if they are they should have a role model that shows assertiveness (not drama or conflict) with consequences by calling it out and walking away.

If we don’t do this we reach out DCs that tolerating abuse from friends, colleagues, family, partners is acceptable.

@Newleafturned CONGRATULATIONS on your 1st class degree. What great news!

@Newleafturned what an incredible achievement. Congratulations. You should be very proud.
You have achieved that in spite of not having the supportive environment you deserved both growing up and as an adult.

I think that from writing here both in the past and now there is a common theme , which your dream draws upon.
The lack of parenting we had as children leads us to feeling anger and resentment and then sadness and grief. Sadly we can’t ever be that child again and get what we needed. We feel short changed.
I agree that perhaps NC would be helpful but I would say it isn’t a panacea either.
The hardest part is really the emotional NC. The no longer needing to be enmeshed in their games because we have grown ourselves up, become our own supporter, nurturer etc.
It’s a form of complete detachment that is somewhat like the golden goose. I believe it’s possible though .
I don’t currently feel sad . I feel free. BUT I still know I have a long way to go.

@Newleafturned it sounds like you getting your degree has unlocked a lot in your subconscious. Particularly with that dream cropping up.

You’ve done AMAZING things with your life and you've got a good family of your own. I'm so sorry that the pain of a shit childhood is still with you. You are 150% better than your parents - more than that!

I had a really upsetting dream last night. Definitely my sub-conscious playing games. I dreamt Mr Monkey was having an affair and left me for someone else. He hadn't left the house but he told me it was over but wouldn't tell me who the other person was. There's no way this would happen IRL. I was asking The Hag to tell me who it was and she wouldn't tell me. Classic anxiety dream (Christmas - FGS it's only 28 September - triggered by her BS) and her rivalry with me. She's the other woman, isn't she? MM has recognised her rivalry with me or at least her possessiveness of her sons, increasingly MM as Slave BIL is able to do less and less for her. He doesn’t put me second place in any of this and he recognises her games. It's just that the games are there. Such an upsetting dream, I woke up shouting!

The classic yesterday was over Xmas. Slave BIL doesn't want to go anywhere for Xmas (he can't wait not to spend time with her). Then it was “oh that's a lot of driving for Mummy Monkey in 24 hours”. No, hag, you are NOT staying at my mum’s house longer than one night at Xmas. And that's only so my mum can self-medicate with wine and not drive you back and forth. I'm going to be having a conversation with MM this evening. I can’t have her mindgames.

@MonkeyfromManchester Christmas is sacred in this house . It’s my favourite time of the year now when it used to be the saddest.
Thinking back I think the sadness came from not having what I perceived I should have. After all we are sold the dream and hear of others gathering with there parents and parent in law.
In fact 5 or 6 years ago your post would have made me sad.
Then I truly let go and accepted I didn’t have that ideal and stopped trying to make it work with the toxic family of birth I began to enjoy it immensely.
I’ve created my own ideal with my own little family unit , filled with new traditions and love.
Now your post fills me with joy and excitement that Christmas is on its way.
Keep Christmas sacred!

@therealsmithfield that’s so good. And good on for you on letting go. What a brilliant transformation.

We have a FAB time at my mum’s. It’s wall to wall wine and food. It’s like being with Mrs Doyle from Father Ted. THIS is the way Xmas is done in my family. It was a revelation to Mr Monkey - there’s no drama, just total fun, no guilt at buying presents, pigging out, being lazy.

The fly in the ointment is the Hag. She’s made something lovely like Xmas with my mum become yet another thing that becomes about her.
With her, NOTHING can be taken at face value. Just realised the BS about Slave BIL being invited - she fucking invited him to SOMEONE ELSE’s house (he doesn’t want to come) - is about her controlling stuff and her having her sons close. Probably some BS about safety in numbers.

I’m really angry now.

I need to work out my plan of action. The fact she’s crept into my fucking sleep has made me really, really angry.

I managed to do some work today which is surprising as weird dreams are like hangovers with me.

It’s 6pm and then Mr Monkey’s mobile, which he’d helpfully left on my desk when he got home (he’d crashed out upstairs and was asleep), started ringing. It’s her. Of course it was. She kept ringing. She now DOESN’T phone my mobile or the landline because she knows I won’t answer. Finally, I just dumped it on our bed and told him to ring her.

Cue Hagtime

I only want you to ring me so I know you’re alright. You got in at 5, you could have phoned me then, I care because I’m your mother, I rang five times NO ONE (that’ll be me) answered, some other bullshit delivered with her spiteful laugh.

When challenged she backs down. ‘I was only joking’.

Can we have a whip-round for an assassin?

Ugh @MonkeyfromManchester the ‘ I was only joking’… it’s like their mantra

She is trying to control and manipulate MM. Having some control is better than none in her world.

Try not to let her dominate your thoughts - when she creeps back in to them maybe go for a walk or listen to some music or a task.

I know it’s not easy, but you have to take care of you as well as MM.

She will not shoulder barge her way into your Xmas , both you and MM will make sure of that.

I’m wondering if there is any boundaries he could put in with phone calls? The phone is so intrusive my TM loves it to communicate because it removes my powers to impose boundaries on when she can have access to me. It is possible though.

@therealsmithfield thank you. I'm going to do a meditation and chill.

Because I'm not used to toxic parents - mine had their quirks but weren't/aren’t toxic - the penny drops rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrealllllllly slowly about the stuff she does. She's utterly vile. And it's all about dragging Mr Monkey back into the net and elbowing me out of the way.

The phone is their weapon, isn't it?

A charter needs to be developed with telecommunications companies that takes access away to any telephonic device from toxic family members.

I'm starting the petition! Join me!

Does anyone else find the Disney film Tangled quite triggering?

Whenever I see the Mother Gothel character it really makes me flinch.

@Partyintheusa2012 funny you should mention that. I was remembering that movie and how I felt when watching it only yesterday!

At @Partyintheusa2012 & @therealsmithfield I’m giving that film a swerve, but might be compulsory viewing for Mr Monkey. Hate stuff that triggers.

Sometimes he’s so thick about her motives. The bollocks about - every single year - about “that’s a lot of driving for your mum, monkey, on Xmas day” isn’t from concern.

Let’s face it, this is the bitch who will snap her fingers and get Slave BIL to drive round here to pick up a letter to deliver to her when we live 10 mins walk away.

It’s planting the seed that it’s too far and then she can stay as long as we do. Nice cushy house, not being left out, control, control, control…

She knows I’m on to her. Sudden interest in coming to Aberdeen next year for grandson’s 18th. She’s seen him fewer than 10 times in his life. It’s about being the centre of attention, muscling in, playing adoring nana and controlling the narrative. Honestly, LC has given me space for persepecfve.

Hello all,

sorry to interrupt - it's been a good few threads since I've been on, but I just wanted to let you know about some very sad news. Some of the long standing posters on the thread will remember SimplySteveRedux (and various names he had over the years) - I'm sad to have to say that his partner died this week, at the age of 42.

He has a thread going over here if you want to leave your condolences.

I was wondering if we could do something. Flowers, or a charity donation, or something? Or does anyone know much about the woolly hugs project?

@Partyintheusa2012 YES.

I know it's a kids' film, but that entire 'Mother Knows Best' song - absolutely spot on. Starts all nicey-nicey, then, subtly to overtly, 'you're incompetent, stupid and unattractive' (but I'm just saying because I love you!) 'without me you won't survive' (because mother has prevented her learning any life skills), the only solution is to accept mother's absolute control, make daughter agree out loud, then 'I love you' again and a hug. I wonder if the writers had some experience with toxic mothers. It made me deeply uncomfortable watching it, but on another level, kind of heard.

(The best bit is the ending where Gothel withers into a husk when Rapunzel cuts her hair off. Maybe it's time for pixie cuts all round?)

@toomuchtooold - that's very sad - 42 is so young. I am newer on this thread but he sounds like a lovely human.