June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@AttilaTheMeercat
Totally get what you mean. If MM’s mental health wasn't so poor, I would.

Although I'm doing a good job on edging away. I just sort social workers out and avoid her as much as possible. Funny how she'd done her own hair on Sunday. Hmmmm. I refuse the control game of the hairdressers now. More game playing.

He absolutely knows my perspective.

PoA gets done with BiL - or they start the ball rolling.

He's talking to the Dr on Friday about her dementia (read about it - always been there - but anger getting far worse & is a sign of it) I want it written down in B&W on her medical records about this. No one can argue with evidence.

MM will need to seek advice from the Office of the Public Guardian.
I think it is not possible to set up a Power of Attorney if she is actually declared as not having mental capacity.

He is key here and ultimately he will need to start further withdrawing from the Hag too for his own sake.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility the Hag is angry because she is abusive, not because she is angry. She may well be assessed as not having dementia. She may well be a narcissist whose behaviour has further worsened as she ages (and any and all authority figures she feared have now died off). She is now old and abusive and she has not fundamentally changed in all these years.

Hello all, asking you wise ladies for an opinion

LC with mum for several years, mainly due to my sibling going NC with me. Mum, as usual, siding with sibling. Prior to this I moved several hundred miles away with my family for various reasons (better work/life balance opportunity being one). Sibling has always been prioritised and can do no wrong in mum's eyes. There was no guilt on my part moving away. It made it easier to deal with being excluded by them.

For the sake of self preservation I have mentally distanced myself. Haven't seen each other for 4 years. Haven't physically spoken for nearly 3 years. Last phone conversation was rapidly shut down by mum as she really wasn't interested. We will exchange a pleasant text message every few months - hello how's everyone - fine thanks type thing. But that's it.

She is now in her 70s. Is it worth trying yet again to have a better relationship? Although I wouldn't know how to even start. There's a nagging voice saying she's your mum, you ought to try. But if I get shut down again it opens the hurt once more.

There is years of backstory which I won't go into. This is long enough!

There is no house/money/inheritence so there is no hidden agenda on my part. I just don't know if I have the courage to start this again.

@TirisfalPumpkin I'm not a regular poster and am just catching up on posts but very much understand what you mean about not being sure whether they truly believe their own story. With regards to my mum, I've concluded that yes, she does, she must do. She uses her narrative to whip herself up into an emotional frenzy in which she is the victim of all manner of wrong doing. But what does this mean? Is it a symptom of an illness? To take a grain of truth and manipulate it into an unrecognisable rendition of events in which she is always the victim. It's exhausting. And it must be exhausting for her too.

Coffee

No I would not try again re your mother. She has not reached out to you and I dare say she has not changed one iota. You remain the scapegoat whilst your sibling is the golden child (a role also not without price) .

You need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Ignore the voice in your head that says she’s your mum, you have to try. That is often said by people who have emotionally healthy parents, your mother is certainly not emotionally healthy and it’s not your fault she is like this. You didn’t make her that way.

@CoffeeInPeacePlease - agree wholeheartedly with what Attila has said above.
What can you do to ‘mother’ and nurture yourself.
If you never had that growing up it can be difficult to do just that especially when life is taking chunks out of us.
I’m wondering if that is really what you are craving currently, but you would be looking in the wrong place with your mum.
Either way don’t feel any obligation, she does not deserve you to be in her life.
YOU were and are as precious and special as your sister as all children are and DESERVE to be loved unconditionally.
Go treat yourself today . Self love xx

@AttilaTheMeerkat I understand. A friend is a family law lawyer and had talked me through PoA. She's not at the stage of full blown dementia, but it’s beginning. Best to sort PoA now as MM & BIL now get its importance. It was also mooted by social services in the spring. Think MM & BIL bury their heads in the sand a lot, and, more probably, want to avoid conflict. Oh, the contrast with my family - living wills so my dad could die with dignity aged 66, mum sorting out PoA when she was 70 in recognition that she doesn't want to burden her children and her taking responsibility.

Absolutely about the rage. It has always been there. All her life. All through her sons’ lives. And anger outbursts are also a recognisable sign of dementia. She's a coercive narcissist, admittedly diagnosed at arms length by my counsellor, but all the signs are there. It's layered anger, but I definitely think it's the narc in her.

Dr did recommend that she help her isolation/memory/mental health by joining in groups, and social workers said the same.

MM did used to stress about her (self-imposed) isolation and have pipe dreams of her joining a music group or things like that.

He now sees this as wish fulfilment, and also realised that if he took her to groups to ‘get her settled in’ it would mean she’d suck him in (my words) with all the attendant expectations from the Hag so he’s not doing it. It doesn’t seem like a lot, but that’s a huge leap in thinking by him.

More and more - almost every day - the penny drops for him about some other aspect of her behaviour as ‘a mother’. It’s very liberating for him. He’s no longer cowed by her and has got fantastic strategies in place now to deal with her.

I think a lot of her rage now is her realising that she can’t control him and pure frustration. She can’t get him to a place of servitude which she’s done with Slave Son and because of Slave Son’s increasing disability she’s reliant for stuff like medical appointments (we never go to her house and she’s not been here since the spring) on Assertive Son. You’re right, it’s about having her games blocked, plus 84 years of her being a truly horrible person with no deep relationships.

@MonkeyfromManchester - the hag is like a toxic elephant in both your lives and you are dismantling that huge beast bit by bit together.
Keep going !
Keep venting here .
Massive hug x

@AttilaTheMeerkat & @therealsmithfield. Thank you for your replies. You have confirmed my initial instinct. My lovely dh said it was up to me but he didn't think it would make any difference if I tried to make more effort. She is never nasty, in fact it would be easy to go totally nc if she was. Thinking about it I'm treated like an acquaintence now I live away. Swop brief pleasantries but no involvement.

Again you are right. I grieve for the relationship I wish we had, like the one she has with sibling. But it doesn't exist. I know I am lucky to have what I do with dh & dc. I will ignore the niggling voice & let it go.

Just checking in with everyone, we moved and still surrounded by boxes. (I am a periwinkle) we have bumped into my parents a few times now and been blanked each time which is bloody hard. Counselling is hard going I just seem to be rehashing everything over and over, I feel
Like a totally shit mum. I’m tired and not laughing and playing with them, this isn’t the life I thought we would have when I relocated.

In a moment of ‘weakness’ I messaged my mum who is enabler rather than the abused and asked her if she wanted to catch up for a chat, that was a week ago (sent her a text and email) and no reply. I spoke to my sister (we are not close and parents played divide and rule and out relationship is shot to pieces as a result and there is no trust there or relationship). I reached out to her - last spoke to her 2 years ago and she was shocked when I mentioned we lived round the corner from my parents and had relocated. Absolutely shocked, she asked if we saw my parents (our parents) and I said no really and she asked why and said because were busy. They didn’t want me to mention we had relocated etc

I’m on the verge of ringing my mum and just wanting to hear her voice it’s so hard. I have an inner child that just need a hug and a sister and mum to love her.

@IAAP a hug to you. It’s really hard. You might not feel it but you’re doing really well. Counselling is a lot of rehashing - to get the pain out and to feel validated and listened to. Big big big hugs xxxxx

@IAAP - apologies I wrote a long response last night and my battery died before I had a chance to press post.
I had to read back to catch up with your story and I am truly horrified at how your parents have behaved. I am only referring to their latest bull crap btw. God knows what it may have been like growing up as a child with those two.
Is there anything you can do to mother yourself today? Even for 5 minutes? Some mindfulness on an app, some stretching, a walk.
Mostly because I have never had a mother in the true sense of the word I neglect myself and am rubbish at self care.
I’ve got to make an effort now to try to do this . Maybe you can too. You have a lot on your plate my dear . Take some time out for yourself and your needs xx

Just a Friday check-in to say wow, all these stories and the things we have been put through (and are still going through). It's good to see you again Periwinkle - please hang on in there and know that we are all standing with you.

To everyone else, sending strength and solidarity.

Hi everyone I used to be on his thread three years ago with a different name. I faded away as my counselling had worked wonders and I was like a new free woman.

But it's all back, the FOG, the self blame, the inner critical voice: I should've been a better daughter, I should've done things differently, am I remembering things correctly?

So after 7 years NC with my mam I've written to her. Told her I'm married and have more children. The wrath that she has unfolded onto my eldest adult child is outrageous. So now I'm starting the process of grief snd guilt and rejection all over again. @CoffeeInPeacePlease don't do it unless you can face all possible outcomes.

@IAAP I'll be heading back to counselling to rehash it all again at great financial cost which I begrudge tbh. And I also understand when you say you feel like a shit mum. I can barely speak or smile let alone parent this last 24 hours.

@AttilaTheMeerkat you are doing a sterling job all these years on guiding us all through the FOG. 💕

@pompomsgalore Thank you. I am taking advice from here & staying extremely LC. I think it hurts less with distance maintained. Sorry you are going through a rehash. I hope counselling gets you back to where you need to be.

Thank you I actually had a great counselling session yesterday evening. We talked about self care - I thought it meant having a bath or something but he said no it’s about listening to my inner me and deciding and rediscovering me. Eg my dad likes me with long hair and my mother with short hair. Even as a teenager I grew it long my father likes it and my mother hated it and vice versa. So I could never win. I’m always asking others what they think and although it’s great to ask others I change my mind constantly trying to people please. Actually I need to find me. Take time to still and listen to my inner voice and look after myself mentally and emotionally. I’m nearly 50 I’ve always wanted to write a book but my mother is an English professor and every idea I have she calls it crap and presents a better idea and she always has done. So I don’t do it fear of failure (!) constant etc and actually I need to write my book and not ask her for advice as her advice is ridicule.

@pompomsgalore - you will be fine. You will not be starting from the beginning. You have done all of the he work - this is just a short refresher course. You already know where you need to get back to - and just need a gentle nudge.

Hello again all,

Last week (I think) I posted that I'd finally given up on my parents and stopped speaking to them.

On Friday my mother phoned me to inform me that my father had had a stroke and was in hospital. I asked for her to keep me informed but I've heard nothing despite the fact that he was due to be discharged yesterday.

So the possibilities are that: he's at home and trying to punish me by not telling me what's going on (and failing because I'm not that emotional about it all really), or he's still in hospital but either they or my mother has decided to punish me by not telling me or he has died (!) and again I'm being punished through them not telling me.

I sound like I'm being paranoid but they have form for this kind of thing and have done similar before.

I'm trying not to think about it all but it looks like someone has decided to try to make me suffer. It won't work but still...

Hope everyone else is bearing up.

@handslikecowstits

Sounds like a common tactic to me. They don't tell you anything about being ill snd then punish you for not knowing.

I'm from a long line of women who do this to their daughters. Not me though. I don't expect anyone to psychically know I'm ill or that I need someone. I also know phones work in both directions.

@handslikecowstits - another possibility is that it was manufactured or didn’t happen or exaggerated to force you back into communication and draw you back into punching distance for you daring to distance yourself.

Common tactic for a “crisis” to emerge at times like this.

@Sssloou I agree generally but my mum wouldn't do that, I don't think. I think he has been/genuinely ill but for some reason, they haven't told me any further details as a punishment.

I'm not going to phone them so no news is good news AFAIConcerned.

I would not phone them. Ignore and drop the rope they hold out to you here.

Besides which if he was a stroke patient, he would not likely have been discharged after one night in hospital. It sounds like again they are using hospital and medical tests to further control you. This is their way of them trying to punish you for some imaginary transgression on your part.

Had to help my mum with something today. Every time I have to see her I am really down and feel terrible. Doesn’t anyone else’s parent ever say “I’m not going to listen to you if you’re shouting” when your clearly not shouting but only trying to express your valid feelings? Just realised that after all these years it has a name.. gaslighting.

Hi all, I hope I am able to join. I am looking for advice on supporting my DH and ultimately my son. My DH has always had difficulties with his family, he is the stepchild within the family and his mum continually favours the other siblings and allows his stepfather to keep us at the bottom of the priority list. When I first dated my DH I thought sometimes he was overreacting to situations but 12 years later I now see how his family treat him like scapegoat and he has felt rejected time and time again. We are now in a position where we have a child, and my SIL has also had a child a few months before us. We saw the bond that his parents had with their child and hoped we would receive the same. Unfortunately we have not, we have perhaps used covid as excuses but we have now come to realise that we still bottom of the list. A situation had occurred which I feel is the straw that's breaking the camels back and we are contemplating going no contact. But I am really struggling with this, what If my son becomes angry we didn't facillate a relationship with one half of his family. Deep down I know that it will be best to protect him from feeling like he is 2nd best grandchild but it is so hard to complete the act of going low contact. I feel so sorry for my DH as he is heartbroken that his parents are favouring the other grandchild time and time again. Thank you all.

His grandma warned me when I started dating him about his stepfather, she said to me I wish I took him and kept him. I initally wondered what on earth she was on about. She unfortunately passed away when I was pregnant and never got to meet her grandchild. His grandfather died during covid lockdown and also never got to meet our son. My DH and I were devastated by this. I really wish they were still alive to make my DH feel loved and part of his family. Its so sad.