June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Great quote of the day;

'People show us over and over again exactly who they are, and we look away the first hundred times or so, because it's easier to look at someone and see what we want to see, instead of what's really there. That's okay. But one day you'll realise that life is too short to keep looking away. Take a long hard look and see what they show you the first time. That's who they are. Believe it.' (Stephanie Bennett-Henry)

@Notmenottoday thank you! I'd start a blog but would be worried that MM would find it and the last thing I want to do is hurt him when he's hurt enough. So, my readers are here. It was a great day, I'm glad for MM, and to see her perk up when she could bask in the glory was very funny (and confirmed everything I know - once again!)

@therealsmithfield Dementors is a brill way of describing them.

@therealsmithfield THAT is a fantastic quote. It's bang-on. These people will hurt and act unreasonably time and time again. And then we empower ourselves to say no. Saying no is hard, and it's not just a word, it's a journey of rejecting just what has hurt us so badly. And journeys are up and down.

I've stopped a lot of my engagement with the Hag. It took time and a lot of effort to junk the guilt to get here.

MM has put a stop to a lot of it. And, obviously, her line: 'I don't know when I'll see you again, son' is an attempt by her to drag him back in and guilt-trip him into deep enmeshment again.

Proud of him as he didn't make any promises and didn't say 'we could do x, y, z with the Hag' to me which he previously used to create the myth of a lovely unfucked up family. He remarked the other day that he had done that in the past and then has junked it as pointless. The family isn't going to change. And the person who's caused all the dysfunctionality - The Hag - is the person who will NEVER change because she likes the status quo just as it is. And knows no other way.

Hag had a great day on Sunday as she had both MM and Slave Son with her and lashings of attention. All about her.

When she wasn't getting lots of attention, she made no attempt at any conversation with me or my mum. She just sat there.

Blessed relief for me - I have NOTHING to say. But she could have made an effort with my mum given the lift and my mum making sure Slave Son and Hag (limited mobility) could get where they needed to go. Just rude.

But, again, why expect anything different? I noticed my mum didn't do what she normally would do in any awkward social situation e.g. swap sides of the table, engage someone who was being quiet. She didn't move and didn't engage with the sulk. I think my mum was fooled by the Hag's vulnerability previously but isn't now and that's why The Hag plays the silent game and is PA hostile with her. My mum cares not a jot. She will do the right thing but her priority is me and Mr Monkey.

Strange how animated Hag became when chatting to the mayor or the potential in-laws (from 20 years ago) The Hag is such a narc.

Oh god @MonkeyfromManchester I can so relate to this post. Conversely it was TM being PA with MIL. MIL is positive and warm and loving.
They just can’t bare to be around positivity, love or warmth especially from another mother or mother figure.
TM also turns on the charm when she is centre stage , wants to, is basking in someone else’s glory.
The extent at which it ran as a child would be that she would put me down for failures yet covet any success as her own. ‘You see you did that/won that or achieved that because of me!’
Equally would sulk like a complete fucking child when attention not on her.
I remember once being away with her and dsis. She’d screamed and shouted at us in the car because she was lost.
We were meeting some friends of hers at a restaurant. Clicked back into charm mode in front of them.
By this stage I had been overseas for a couple of years so was just visiting and unlike my sister had ‘found my voice’. So I chatted adult to adult at the table. TM face like thunder…
Their jealous, callous , blood sucking nature knows no bounds.

So happy for MMs success in everything he does . You sound like such a wonderful couple together. A real partnership. You both deserve the best of everything xx

@therealsmithfield thank you about me and MM. Sounds like your husband sees your mum for what she is. The worst thing would be our partners negating what we say. And yes seeing what is positive parenting with your MIL - that’s exactly what MM sees with my mum.

God, that’s awful of your mother. Awful and demotivating. And yes when you find your voice they hate it.

MM found his in his teens - music, art - but Hag really does blister his self-confidence still.

Awful people.

Keep your TM blocked!

Xxx

The ability to switch 'modes' was something I've only recently recognised in toxic-mum. When I doubt which of us is the badly-behaved one, I think -

• she can turn it off at work. I doubt she always gets her way at work, but since she still has a job, presumably she doesn't bully or physically lash out at those who cross her in that field. She keeps that behaviour for me and my dad (who tolerates it)
• she has been alternating silent treatment with being nasty when just with me, then immediately flips to bright and chirpy when someone in her good books turns up. She then acts fake nice to me in front of that person, and immediately flips back when they leave.

If she was really upset and aggrieved by my completely unreasonable behaviour, she wouldn't be able to turn it off, would she. If someone's truly in distress it's not selective like that. They might put on a brave face and get through a social encounter, but I don't think they'd be able to just spring into happy, giggly mode, and then revert right back to poisonous sulking.

Week 2 of NC and, by and large, it's just NICE. Getting more done at work, have energy at the end of the day to do things I enjoy, have social energy left for friends and acquaintances.

The bit I'm still struggling with is whether she genuinely believes her made-up versions of events, or if, on some level, she knows she's making up fiction to justify her emotional state. Appreciate I might never find out.

@TirisfalPumpkin the mode switching is something that Mr Monkey grew up with and it used to confuse the hell out of him as a kid. I think as he grew up he began to see the patterns and the fact Hag could switch in seconds.

The Toxics DO know what they're doing or, at least, the victim (their kids) will never get the consistent golden light they show to other people, unless, of course, they're being 'amazing parent' mode for showtime.

I think the fact that your TM would never behave like that at work but it's totally OK to be like that to you and your dad says it all.

God knows whether The Toxics know the 'truth' or have their own version of 'truth'. I think they're not able to be objective EVER. They have a twisted little narrative and nothing changes that. I think they would call white black, even if presented with scientific evidence. Mr Monkey has longed to record Hag when she's on one of her flights of Toxicity. Pointless. She'd argue with hard evidence.

So glad you are having a good week. The Toxics are exhausting. Keep going. It is all the energy we use on the bad stuff because they take up so much bloody space in our heads.

In Monkey Towers, there is a new game of ‘lose’ the phone e.g. Switch it off to avoid two hag phone calls five minutes apart.

Message after I ignore the first call:
‘I’d ring Mr Monkey, but I know he's at work’

I was, OBVIOUSLY, out on the terrace with Sebastian The Pool Boy whilst Mr Pool Filtration man explained the new system to me.

FFS.

Yes! @therealsmithfield @TirisfalPumpkin @MonkeyfromManchester the mode switching!! I am confident this is at the root of my “fear” the silent treatment or screaming would come out of nowhere! Then someone of value would appear and TM would switch to being pleasant.

I never knew as a child what would induce a screaming fit or a bought of the silent treatment - see “you know what you’ve done” when questioned, I really didn’t and very much doubt whatever I had “done” warranted being ignored for hours, sometimes days depending on her mood.

TMIL also does less extreme mode switching, but it’s definitely in the same realm and I know from DH that as a child she was capable of the screaming & ignoring routine. DH couldn’t remember having chicken pox as a child, when DC got it we asked TMIL if he had it when young. She said she couldn’t remember but GCSIL definitely had it and recounted a detailed story about it

In the following weeks we were in someone’s company with TMIL, someone she values. This person was asking if DC was feeling better and asking if we had both had it. I said I had it when I was young but TMIL couldn’t remember if DH had it. Well, of course, TMIL was quick to point out I was mistaken “don’t be daft, of course he’s had it, I told you that!” The embarrassment shining through… I said “Really? When I asked you, you said yin could remember GCDD having it but not SCDS!” Cue furious look at me and mouth slowly twisting into that of a cats arse.

“Of course he had it too, I was just telling you a story about GCDD when she has it, you must have misunderstood”

I didn’t, DH had asked her first and he reported back to me that she couldn’t remember him having it, I then asked her for a second time in DHs company and she recounted the same version to me. She just didn’t want to look “bad” in front of this person she valued. She didn’t want to be the mother who didn’t know in front of this person. But telling us the truth would have provided us with a reasonable piece of information so of course that wouldn’t be forthcoming in anyway.

Honestly ridiculous! She seethed at me for quite a while after that, hopefully she learned that if she’s going to talk shit to me, I have no hesitation in repeating her nonesense in front people she won’t like to be shown up in front of. I don’t suffer from any FOG with her, with my own family yes, but for her, no. I just get upset on behalf of my DH to watch her shitty behaviour which she inflicts on him and encourages all her monkeys to join in with.

It still amazes me that I can stand up for DC or DH without hesitation but I really struggle when it comes to protecting me. Training has a lot to answer for!

‘You must have misunderstood’
Classic gaslighting.
These people are freaks @Notmenottoday
MM had no idea what mode would crop up in any given second. This is the pattern with The Toxics. No one outside the toxic magic circle will get anything but a rainbow of cheer and good will.

Toxic magic circle so accurate @MonkeyfromManchester

Had a counselling session this evening and I feel so flat afterwards.
It’s the same counsellor I had 7 years ago and I have the same felling now as then. That she doesn’t really ‘get it’.
I mean yes I can put boundaries in if TM was a regular person ( by god I’ve tried) but if that’s where this counselling is going to be heading again I can’t say it’s going to help. I feel like I’m trying to convince her that it’s ‘ that’ bad or bad ‘enough’ to warrant me having a relationship of any kind with her.
I mean how can anyone ‘get it’ when they are a kind , warm loving mother & Grandmother. Which she clearly is.
It brings me back into it wasn’t that bad mode and that I can’t justify my feelings.
The fact is if I were describing a relationship with anyone other than my mother I am fairly sure I would be told to end the relationship.
I feel as though other than here on this board and with DH people expect you to be at minimum obligated to see and have a form of relationship with your mother.

Regarding the ‘switching’ modes - anyone else’s TM do this wrt ‘ overbearing vs detached mode.
Sometimes I’ll have the bulldozing ‘ I need to see you/ speak to you / need your news’ TM and then there’s the ‘not now Smithfield I’m busy’ TM.
Worse as a child because then it was the hypercritical, overbearing mode vs the I’m giving you the silent treatment/ can’t be arsed / haven’t got tome for you mode .

I think you guys had the above covered 😊.. am catching up sorry …

Sorry to hear you are feeling flat, it is very hard @therealsmithfield

I’ve tried counselling, tried 3 different counsellors over a number of years and gave up as I never felt any of them got it so I can understand your feelings here. You are completely accurate in your comments too that if it was anyone other than a parent they would be encouraging you to walk away. However, unless people “get it” you tend to get the “but it’s your mother” line “you only get one” (mores the pity)

I identified with the overbearing/not interested modes. TM generally does the overbearing thing when trying to hoover me back in then goes radio silent/one word responses when hoovering is not working as it used to (now that I see her game)

Therealsmithfield

I would now find another counsellor to work with. These people are like shoes, you need to find someone who fits in with your approach. Sometimes these people are not the right fit.

Thanks @Notmenottoday -

I’ve woken with anxiety this morning.
Dc starting back at school , so could be that but I’m convinced it’s from the session last night.
Well in fact I know it is. It’s had me questioning my own reality all over again in the early hours.
It’s funny I was having flashbacks all day of certain things the counsellor said in the past that felt uncomfortable or damaging even .
This was my instinct kicking in.
I’m very good at overriding my own instinct to protect myself because of course I’d need to defer to my mother growing up to survive.
I booked a session next week so again overriding my own feelings.
Not being believed or feeling validated is very triggering to me. I tried to tell gm and once my dad but I wasn’t believed.
Emotional abuse with some physical abuse, is that ok? Surely any abuse is not ok.
I feel like I have to explain it with the lowest denominator of the abuse. Well she dragged me down stairs by my hair one day … will that suffice ?
Again if that was a partner just the once and I’d be told to ‘get out’.
I had been doing a lot better this week in my RL. Boundaries at work. Being focused and available for DC and DH.
One of the last things in the session yesterday was about needing to parent myself to heal my inner child.
So I’m going to do just that and cancel the session.

Cross posted @AttilaTheMeerkat yes I think you are right. I tried to make this one fit 7 years ago for an entire year…. Notice the pattern

@therealsmithfield I totally echo what @AttilaTheMeerkat says about counselling. They are like shoes. We have to shop around. Look for one who specialises in narcissim. How are you with zoom counselling as I might know someone in Manchester (I didn't use them as I used the NHS - self-help services which you might have where you live where you can refer yourself). The woman I used there ON THE FIRST DAY WE MET diagnosed the hag as a Coercive Narcissist. And she was the person (as well as here where I was encouraged to listen to my inner voice AND go NC) who said 'leave her, not your mother - and even if she was it's ABUSE)

Christ, dragging you down the stairs by your HAIR. Awful. That's physical abuse, the rest of it is emotional and psychological abuse. Jt/s NOT on. You would leave a partner if that happened. And not being listened to is another form of abuse.

Try and find a counsellor who validates you and keep talking here as we BELIEVE you, there is NO doubt here, only belief and willing you on the journey to heal. And quite frankly your mother doesn't deserve you being in contact and being a punch bag.

And Hag Update.

After a reasonable level of behavior (not normal, but she just isn't - sucking up attention and being foul on Sunday and Fucking well thinking I don't work so I'll be OK with two phone calls yesterday on a day full of deadlines), she has reverted to type and HAG OVERLOAD. This morning before 10am. Thanks a Fucking lot.

MM has sorted a load of medical appointments for her this morning - getting every single thing on one day to save his and HER time (not that she does anything but sit in her lair watching telly at 500 decibels, treat people like shit and go to the supermarket three times a week with her increasingly disabled son)

So, he rings her.

She kicks off about her Carer who calls three times a day. They're booked in for half an hour but only stay for 15 minutes because she refuses any kind of help bar putting her Fucking eyedrops in. The Carer offered - only offered! - to give her back a wash. NO ONE can make her do anything which has been pointed out by us, the carers and social services countless times.

I'm going to cancel them, Hag says.

So, she kicks off more and more saying she wants to cancel the carers. So, who the actual FUCK will do her care?

I'm not going round there three times a Fucking day to sort her Fucking eye drops out. 8.30am, 1pm and 6pm. Nor is MM.

I think she assumes I do fuck all at home (literally, she 'doesn't understand what I do all day'. I Fucking WORK running my own business which is very demanding - self employment) or MM can call round whilst he's working from home in his busy job. And his WFH is getting reviewed so I would be in the firing line if that gets cancelled. I would shove the drops down her throat.

Already he takes her to every medical appointment under the sun.

It's like a toddler throwing her toys out of her pram and a veiled threat and ENTITLEMENT that we will do stuff for her and more CONTROL. And NO sense of how busy our lives are or how we don't want to be exposed to her vileness.

I'm straight on to social services this morning to say she still needs care.

MM is sorting out Power of Attorney with his brother today or to start the ball rolling (I've asked for this since the spring FFS - the pair of them just don't get it)

When I speak to SS, I'm laying it on with a trowel that she's getting dementia - she totally is. The social worker has already said that they won't remove care but you never know with the pressures they are under.

I just want the Fucking bitch in a home and I NEVER want have to see her evil features EVER AGAIN.

Then she rang back to complain about the medical appointments - what do they want? Can't believe they're doing all this again? Three appointments in one day - I'll be so tired.

No thought WHATSOEVER about MM taking time out from his busy job. She's unbelievably selfish and abusive.

MM is now on the phone to Slave Brother explaining the care kick-off, the medical appointment kick-off. It would seem that she's already phoned him - literally when the hag put the phone down - to rant and to get him on side.

I want her thrown into the sea.

We will have abuse for the rest of the week and probably a ton of calls today.

Oh god @MonkeyfromManchester - she’s upping the anti! She can probably feel the control slipping away and she is cooking up ( probably from her cauldron) ways like you say to regain control.
BUT you are onto her… so you’ve put manoeuvred the hag .
Breathe and take some time to zone out if you can because it will take its toll on you. Outmanoeuvring them is EXHAUSTING!
I’m crossing all my fingers and toes power of attorney is sorted quickly.

You and MM have got this xx

@therealsmithfield will get to your PM. Lost loads of worktime this morning because of HAG. FFFFFFFS.

@MonkeyfromManchester please please do not worry about replying- today , tomorrow next week. No urgency at all xx

Honestly I would drop the rope completely when it comes to the Hag because she has and will have you continuing to run around after her too.

Indeed it may well come to pass that you would start telling Mr Monkey that you do not want to hear a word about the Hag nor do you wish to see her ever again.

A helpful link re Power of Attorney. It can take around 20 weeks or so for it to be sorted out.

www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney