June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Had a great time. Today she’s just been hilariously vile.

Glad you had a great time even though the Hag was as vile as she ever is.

Emotionally abusive mostly, negligible physical abuse - usual smacks and banging of heads from both parents as I was born in the 80's. Not that I condone it but I wouldn't have classed it as abusive compared to some kids I've worked with.

I think initially it would be guilt at not seeing him if he passed. But at the cost of my mental health right now....

I've already dealt with mother's passing last year having not spoken to her. I felt mostly anger that she was too bloody minded. I shed a few angry tears. Her last words - word - to me when I emailed parents at the start of Covid, having not spoken to them for a couple of years was simply 'noted'. Nothing else. She and my sister were allegedly regularly hashing out what had happened between myself and them, each of course feeding into the other rather than suggesting a different viewpoint.

So I would also get over his absence quite quickly. But I think it's that green eyed monster again, knowing that already with him having mentioned wills to me, that my sister will be very well looked after. And yet again, I will be pushed to the kerb. I'm trying to work out why I keep putting myself forward to be rejected over and over. If I had simply stayed away instead of trying to build bridges, I wouldn't be questioning my motivation or the risk to my mental health of now staying in touch.

I'm already the black sheep, losing 2 parents whilst nc couldn't possibly make me be seen any less in family members eyes.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Mr Monkey is doing really well at setting boundaries. It’s not perfect - we’re dealing with a lunatic - but the difference to January 2020 when she was here for five weeks with what we think was covid and the rest of 20/21 in his dealings with her is incredible.

All the (pointless) moaning is pushed back with ‘You know the solutions, they are x,y,z, you need to make a choice’. Then she whines and he says again ‘you know the choices, make a choice’ or don’t complain’. He just keeps repeating that. And exits the conversation.

When he sees the spleen is about to start he says ‘this is going to escalate into an argument, there’s no point to this so I’m going’

He’s accepted that it’s pointless thinking she’s the kind of mother who will do things ‘normally’. She’s not.

He limits his exposure to hospital appointments and phone calls. He’s stopped saying we should have her round for lunch or x, y, z.

If there is an invitation, it’s limited to one ask, there’s none of cajoling that we used to do. This is what’s going to happen with Christmas. The run up is NOT going to be a drama. She has a choice - yes or no. One ask, one answer.

Phone calls are NOT made when we go away. We are going away a lot.

He pushes back a lot more. So, do I.

Next step is him getting counselling. He knows this is needed. But he’s scared that people will get into ‘trouble’ (with the police) because of the physical abuse (I’ve reassured him on this as I did Level 2 in counselling and know the ethics a counsellor works to. He also says he doesn’t want to talk behind someone’s back. I’m working on him.

He’s much more in control of everything. He’s come a long way.

Very proud of him and proud of myself for empowering him to get to a far better place.

We are dealing with a sociopath so it’s not easy. But when I see in black and white what we’ve done, and had to do for our sanity, it’s incredible.

There’s been a lot of support and sound advice here. Thank you.

Mr Monkey is indeed doing very well here re his mother. Narcissists do not like boundaries and will actively rail against any that are set so he is doing the right thing by stating facts and repeating as and when necessary.

He has also gone onto accept that she will never be kind of mother who will do things ‘normally’. Again this is great progress and all part of his ongoing recovery from her abuse.

I do hope that he will eventually see a counsellor. If I may offer some suggestions re this person it would be for he to treat it like a job interview. Interview these people carefully and at length before settling on any particular one. I would also look for someone from the BACP website; these people are like shoes and he needs to find someone who fits in with his approach. He may also want to contact NAPAC as they could be helpful too.

Do not forget your own self here in all this, your needs are important too.

@minisoksmakehardwork what I pick up from your post is a slight residue of self blame and I pick this up from your notion that it wasn't as bad as others that have been abused.
Indeed It must be doubly difficult to get your head around this justification if you are working in an arena such as yours.
You also use 'self blame' and reproach yourself for writing an email?
Why? That is what a kind hearted, good person would do.
In spite of them you are authentically a kind and caring woman clearly. Their reaction is their authentic 'controlling' response.
I might be wrong of course but just something for you to ponder.
The very essence of abuse is that it becomes so normalised that we come on here and type 'well it wasn't that bad... i.e. they took me to a stately home...'
The other thing is it does sound as though you are already determined to not engage. This is YOUR choice and to hell with what anyone else thinks or says about it, especially your siblings who bought fully into the cult like existence of your family.
Your only duty of care is to YOU. They have never protected you or looked out for you. So it is time to parent yourself, and the small abused you.
If this were your best friend in the world, you would unconditionally support her and believe in her. xx

Hey minisoks, I'm sorry for your loss. Must be especially tough when you're mourning both the actual person and the person you wish they could've been.

I try to stay away from the 'smacking never did me any harm' '80s parenting was better' stuff that occasionally crops up on here. 'Smacking' covers a weirdly broad range of behaviour from gentle contact to keep kid safe, to the painful, humiliating treatment I was subjected to, to even worse things, and I think my parents used this broad range of meanings to justify completely unacceptable behaviour under the banner of 'it's just smacking and it's normal'. Ugh, even the word makes me feel on edge.

Monkey, I'm looking forward to your hag update, although sorry you had to sit through a hag encounter to provide the material. It's tough for men to approach counselling, I think. He's lucky to have you to support him.

well done @MonkeyfromManchester and to MM - I'd agree you need to look out for yourself as well as stress and creep up behind you.

Lots of trips away sounds just the ticket.

Roll up, roll up for Hag show. I had a GREAT time yesterday despite all my anxiety of the last few days. I worked to the rule of ‘this is Mr Monkey’s day, NOTHING is going to ruin this’. But there were some classics.

1. I phone her when we’re driving to her lair to pick here up. It’s 12.45pm, the arrangement was 12.45pm. We are NOT late.
   Hag: ‘I’ve been ringing your mum wondering where you are’
   Me: ‘she’s driving so she can’t answer the phone’
   We arrive dead on 12.45pm.
   Hag isn’t waiting outside her flat as she normally does. Some kind of game. No idea. Gets in car.
   ‘I was ringing your mobile’. No hello or nice to see you.

2. drive to disabled brother in law to pick him up. He walks on two sticks and his condition is getting worse and worse. He really struggles getting in and out of a car.
   Mummy monkey aka relentlessly cheerful and brisk sidekick
   ‘You sit in the front seat’
   Hag: ‘he should sit in the back with me’
   Mummy Monkey ‘no, he’ll sit in the front as it’s easier’
   Hag: ‘it’s easier in the back’
   He’s obviously not allowed to make decisions. He gets in the front. Room for legs, room for sticks.

At this point, I realise how close Hag’s former lair is to his. Terraced houses. Their houses were back to back. Apparently, he made a break for it when he first left home, living on the other side of the city, then moved closer and then moved there in the early 80s. Drawn back in. It is also a slum. She would have had control by ‘comments’ on him spending money. NO woman would view his place as a nice place to spend time in. I now wonder when he last had a relationship.

3. we drive to the event, Mummy Monkey’s sat nav is buggered so relying on my map reading. Lol. We get ‘moderately lost’. Twice. Mummy Monkey unstressed.
   Hag: we’ve got lost. (nasty laugh)
   Mummy Monkey (jolly) we’re nearly there with plenty of time.

4. because of mobility issues of Hag and Slave Son (BIL), we drop them on the pavement just in front of the event. The Hag making massive fuss of disabled son (who’s fine, just slower) Mummy Monkey helping him get out of car. I can see Hag is livid at not being in control so tries to get involved. And, accidentally, slams the car door on his thumb. Blood everywhere. Mummy Monkey has first aid kit in car (of course she does!) and administers first aid (trained). Hag doesn’t apologise or show any remorse about the situation.

5. walk to where the event is taking place. Suddenly, Hag is all over MM (reflected glory). It literally is her grabbing hold of him ‘my son’. The best bit is when she’s with him talking to the mayor of Manchester. Basking in the glory of it all.

6. go to the party afterwards (I’m running up the street to get a gin!) I’m organised getting drinks for everyone.
   Hag: ‘where’s my tea?’
   Me ‘there was only one person on the bar and a massive crush so it didn’t feel fair to ask her to make a cup of tea so I got you water’
   Hag rolls eyes. ‘Oh’. No thank you.

7. it’s a really close knit Irish community so Mr Monkey’s ex girlfriend’s family are there. They were together in the early 90s. I’ve never met her or her family. Everyone knows each other (which is normal and I’ve not got a problem with it). What I do reflect on given the Hag’s sudden animation is a) everything is about her - people are chatting to her b) she can only cope with the things she knows, I’m out of her field of reference and she doesn’t get me (or like me because I’m not Irish Mancunian working class - or biddable. She liked this girlfriend)

8. food arrives.
   Me: how was your pie?
   Hag: not very nice (she’s eaten it all)

9. ‘is it time to go? When are we going?’
   Mr Monkey having to explain that the event hasn’t finished as he’s organised all the music.

Thank god for GIN. I was knackered when I got home. Absolute adrenaline.

Mr Monkey has just left to take her for a medical appointment. He’s getting so good as he’s not taking her demands of getting her there an hour earlier.

@MonkeyfromManchester love it...especially the ref to her home as 'the lair'.
Really feel for your BIL as well..... how an earth does MM fit all this caretaking for hospital appointments in around his own life and work?
Such demands on his time.

@therealsmithfield I’m still marvelling at the thumb incident.

Mummy Monkey: ‘I noticed a lack of any kind of responsibility there.’
Hag could do all the fuss - drama, virtue signalling, look what a concerned person I am’ - but not take responsibility or apologise.

As mummy monkey is getting the first aid kit out of the car and opening it, calmly.

Hag is ‘oh, I’ve got some plasters in my bag’ (no, she hasn’t or ever did have plasters) it’s some ridiculous game of being a caring and kind person. She isn’t.

BIL has no life. It’s really sad as the last 20 years since she retired has meant total and absolute control. And far worse since he retired through ill health 10 years ago. He’s not going to live forever - he’s 63 and in poor health - and this will have been his life. So, so, so sad.

MM has a great employer who gets his caring responsibilities. It’s not a great way to live our 50s but the boundaries are in place. I also noticed her dementia is really accelerating. Which will mean more care. Or even a home.

Noticed how Hag swaps the roles - MM was Golden Boy yesterday. Normally both her sons are scapegoats.

Poor slaveson, both the thumb incident and, well, the life.

Hag sounds like a thoroughly disappointed human being - I wonder how someone ends up like that. Not so much a joy sink as a joy black hole.

@MonkeyfromManchester it’s just awful. Feel bad for all of you involved . Life is so short and way too short to be at the beck and call of ‘hag’.
Don’t get me wrong taking care of a mother that took loving care of you growing up - different story.
She is a dementor that’s what I used to refer to my TM as too. So fitting.
I think I was earmarked to be a female ‘slave son’. Thank god I got as far away as possible.
Much gaslighting to try and prevent me from leaving. It took me until I was 30!

Am going to be honest. I am really struggling today with my resolve.
Almost unblocked TM on phone and went back into tow the line mode.
Why?
I think I am good at seeing others POV but when it comes to me....I still have a resonance of feeling like I'm the villain of the piece .
I guess I then am wanting to allay that feeling by moving back into line?
After all I spent most of the weekend convincing myself I am a narcissist like her. My biggest fear.
I also feel like was it really that bad? Well yes it was a horrible childhood. Truly felt so unloved and confused and tormented by them. Compared to some though??
She has never accepted or acknowledged any of the pain I carry and I have accepted she never will.
I know she will never be any different or the Mother I desired for so long.
So what is the point of me being engaged with them to any degree when i can never fully engage because I need to protect myself and my DCs from her nonsense.

Totally different story when it’s a normal parent - of course, we’d take care of them.

We take care of the Hag - it’s just that she doesn’t deserve it. BIL isn’t in any way fit enough to do those appointments (or even to take her shopping, he needs a buggy, but she insists on going shopping three times a week because it’s about her) so it’s a case of not re-burdening him with it and he’s not caught up in the guilt if we refused. We’re well out of the FOG or, at least, getting there.

Everyone is gaslit to buggery to think it’s normal, however. It’s not.

It took my arrival to explain to MM that this isn’t normal. He’s now made that clear to BIL - ‘I’m my worst enemy’ (yes, you are) - and to Hag.

He’s just home. There was a well behaved Hag at her appointment. Probably all the positive attention yesterday TBH. She’s like a child.

Did you escape from home at 30 or ‘just’ (lol) from all the bullshit?

@therealsmithfield
You’re good at supporting other people (brilliant, in fact) because you’ve been 1) conditioned to put others first by training by your mum 2) there’s an underlying sense of you’re not worth it.

You are 💯 worth it. Don’t unblock her. You are NOT the villain. You are not a narcissist. You are putting you and your daughter first - that is NOT narcissistic. This is you protecting yourself and your daughter. If you were a narcissist, you’d be back in it, playing some toxic game but probably not aware of it. You’ve got self-awareness in spades.

Do not feel guilty. Don’t even feel guilty about resolve wobbling. Your TM has conditioned you. You have escaped, keep strong.

Xxxx

@TirisfalPumpkin
Yep, BIL has no life. He goes to the social club for a pint every afternoon. The social club is where she worked for thirty years. More enmeshing.

I have NO idea why she’s like this. Abuse- violent father, Narc mother. But all her brothers and sisters were not like this. She’s damaged by her family, yes, but she’s chosen to live like this and/or has no awareness of how she is. She’s absolutely vile. And stuck at a child’s age.

Mr Monkey’s dad was not like this. He wanted a different life, nicer house in better area.

She never wanted anything different or better for her kids. And refused it. Then MM’s dad died when MM was eight. Hag wouldn’t let him have a photo of his dad in his room. Shit parenting.

Even Mr Monkey’s first house was down a complete slum street, five minutes walk from the lair she had. Total control. And NO ONE could escape. That’s why she dislikes me. I’ve facilitated change and took control from her.

I encouraged MM to go to university when he was 38, she undermined that by planting seeds about it not being affordable and no graduate jobs. And then basked in the glory of his graduation from his BA (first) and his MA. TOTALLY fucked up family.

@MonkeyfromManchester Thank you. You are very kind. I find validation hard. Even from my own DH who has seen my personal 'hag' up front in all her glory.

WRT MM I think its testament to what an amazing guy he is that he is able to support slave BIL and carry out 'Hag' duties. He is clearly being true to who he is which is important as well. I think being authentically a kind person is trait that gets preyed upon. They cant even feign kindness.

I was constantly trying to fly the coop from age 18 - she was very controlling and would gaslight the crap out of me.
There were many attempts to leave but I can back because the punishment was always to be thoroughly isolated. No contact.
I eventually bought my own place a stones throw away... she visited once....My brain hadn't made the connection at what was going on.
Something inside of me was kicking in 'self preservation'. At 30 i got on a plane to the other side of the world where I stayed for 7 years, met DH got married and had DS.
That move was the single best thing I ever did for myself.
She tried to stop me...boy did she try!

One of the last text messages between us
Me 'who knows perhaps the DH and I will retire back to other side of the world'
TM ' oh but you can't now, your too old' note of passive aggression
Me 'But we can, we all have passports'
TM 'Oh.....can I come too'

Not on your nelly!

@therealsmithfield you’re welcome. Your husband is right. But it’s very hard to escape the conditioning and the guilt these toxic people inflict.

Yep, moving away isn’t allowed in your case or within the Hag’s world view. Escaping their toxic bollocks and their control.

With keeping your kids close, I think the toxic ones haven’t got a clue about empowering your children to do something new or grow up (good parenting)

Your mum not visiting is exactly like my brother in law (bro’s boyfriend) who moved out of London and similar enmeshed shit. His Narc toxic mum has NEVER visited. He’s now junked the daily call. His sister has also moved to Devon. Says it all.

The ‘can I come, too’ - threat and entitlement and NO sense of responsibility for their actions.

Keep strong. X

What happened to the hags siblings, if they are still alive do any of them have anything to do with her now?. It would not surprise me if they have estranged themselves from her.

People like the hag have no friends for good reason. People shy away from them because of their overt behaviour and toxicity.

Smithfield

I would not ever leave them a forwarding address if you did emigrate.

by the way you can and no you’re not too damn old either!. Your mother is a master of the PA dig.

@AttilaTheMeerkat they didn't see her a lot (or she didn't), but they weren't estranged. They're all dead, but were really happy and good times.

it was totally fucked up after Mr Monkey’s dad died when he was 8. MM went to live with his cousin’s family for a bit - totally lovely family and he was really happy - so I don't know whether that was the Hag having a breakdown or palming him off. Kids everywhere. But Hag had a house. Think GB was ‘picked’ to live with her.

No one tells the truth / knows the answers / has the answers. I think there was a massive row between Hag and Grand Hag (her mother) and Hag left her mother’s house, packing her bags in a high row with the kids (GB & MM) and then split the family up.

MM has memories of Grand Hag being a hostile person and shit grandmother. They're just so fucked up.

As you say, no friends. Obviously,

She just rang.

‘It was lovely yesterday. (guilt inducement) I just don't know when we'll see each other, son’

Round her fucking cauldron.

Dementors the lot of them

'Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope and happiness out of the air around them. ... If it can, the Dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself – soulless and evil…

@MonkeyfromManchester can’t decide what my favourite part of today’s Hagdate is… grand hag & round her couldron!! You could have your own series! poor BIL can you imagine injuring someone and not even apologising? She’s truly vile, MM was Golden Son for he day while she got to rub shoulder with people she felt were “important” pleased to hear his day went well though!!

@therealsmithfield dementors - so accurate! Sorry you’re having a bad day… previous posters are completely accurate though, this is all training. Doubting yourself, your experience and your feelings. You are not a narc! Far from it, you are protecting your own, don’t doubt it, we are here.

@Notmenottoday Thank you. Yes self doubt is the hardest to get past in all walks of life unfortunately. Every ounce of validation help, so thank you.

Her voice, not mine 'You're being overly dramatic/too sensitive/selfish Smithfield.

my vote is for 'round the cauldron' you must publish @MonkeyfromManchester such talent , such comedic accuracy!

@AttilaTheMeerkat there will be no forwarding address on any next move I make!