June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@therealsmithfield gawd, the illness thing - that's absolutely cracked. And it's almost worse that you just knew it from the minute a lump was mentioned. Speaks volumes, really. At this point I can almost always predict what they will do next. I've been an expert in anticipating and dealing with their shit for 35yrs, its all expected and so disappointing. I've been discussing with DH to work out what we will do when we tell them they are not allowed to come for a while after the baby, but as he has lovely parents he doesn't really get the mind games. He is of the opinion that my parents will just need to deal with it, whereas I know that they will be almost hysterical about it and will try their best to bully me into changing my mind. All they will consider is that they want to see their new GD, and I am in the way of the thing that they want.

@handslikecowstits good for you. At this stage "I've had enough" probably follows years and years of giving them eloquent explanations for it to fall on deaf ears. What's the point?

@therealsmithfield @handslikecowstits @Eatingjumper all I can say is go, us!

Reflecting on the ‘moment’ that is ‘it’, I think the abused take so much that suddenly we just snap. My moment with The Hag - toxic MIL - was Pizza Topping Gate which had me sitting in a bus shelter with a tin of G&T and bag of quavers afterwards. (I’m 53)

That was it for me.

Slow hand clap. Horrible. It’s that ‘joking’ passive aggressive shit that’s insidious.

@therealsmithfield

We have the script too. It included when I said 'I'm really exhausted with disabled DC and I need you to take over some of the organising if you want to see us as you've never done this'..DMs answer ' well now we finally know what you really think of us'. And silence. Also hanging up on me mid call when I called next.

These are not teenagers. I am not a random person or their parent. (Although this is all about their need to be parented. My issue is parentification).

My DM has now got major back problems and needs to see a specialist. I've had a couple of texts about this in the radio silence.

Its so predictable isn't it?!?

She genuinely thinks everything is A ok with us and she's the only one suffering. Its just so sad to be so lacking in insight and explains why my DM has never had a friend. She hasn't had one friend since college. I'm not even sure college she had friends. She met my DF through a work colleague, he was on a sports team with her boyfriend. In all of my life neither of them have had a friend except each other. They do have a couple of couple friends now they see once in a while. But like twice a year. Its really really sad. And no bloody wonder she's so miserable and jealous. But its not my fault. She went out of her way to stop me having friends as a child. Its been a lifelong problem for me as I didn't learn the skills.

@Eatingjumper I know ! To put some context around that I began writing on this thread before I was pg with dd. Like many on here every interaction felt like a game where I just never got the memo regarding the rules.
No matter how close I thought I was Ron understanding or winning to the game. It’s crazy making. It also kept me enmeshed.

I only went NC when I became pg with dd and the ladies at the tile supported me on here hugely.
When the illness thing came up a few of them said ‘ ah ha’ ! Wait and see Smithfield!’
It’s a learning curve for sure !

@handslikecowstits I think this is where a daughter of a narc’s inbuilt resilience bites us on the arse. There’s is a determination there , or at least there can be, to change things. Humans are creatures of habits and we all like status quo let be honest , and a lot of it is probably sub conscious any way. To top it of as a daughter of a narc you role is to fix . So that’s what we do. Until we snap! Say no more and let go.

Then there is the detaching and I still need to work on that clearly. It ain’t a straight path that’s for sure !

Golly slow handclapping from a parent is so grim. Definitely worth having had enough.

I wish I'd had this thread when mum was alive. @therealsmithfield
As for the illness thing, she was a hypochondriac of highest order - loved the attention it got her and worshipped doctors (her children all wised up and got hard hearted).

Just recently a media story about someone lying about being seriously ill prompted me to remember an incident when I was about 11 and she told me she had breast cancer. I'd obviously repressed the memory but I can remember feeling scared - she was a single parent, Dad had buggered off no contact, I had a younger sibling and I thought she was telling me she was dying. and we'd be left alone. I can't remember when it became apparent she'd been to have a lump checked, hadn't had a result and was basically making shit up. Bloody hell I was a child.

Always such a drama queen health wise. Of course I now swing between taking the 'it'll be fine' approach (and not going to doctor even when it later turns out I was actually rather ill/had broken something) and madly googling every random pain & symptom in case I have a rare Zebra disease.

The problem is dying helps but they never quite bloody leave. (Yes I know that sounds bloody awful but figure if I can't say it here where can I?!)

@Eatingjumper I will quite happily avail your DH of what impact it all had in me for my first birth … try and get him to read up, Ask him to trust you when you ask for his protection and that you will need it.
DH saw TM kick off for the first time ‘at me’ whilst I was going into labour. It began with the goading and the passive aggression and when I stood up to her it escalated very quickly.
He was horrified!
Other options ……lose your phone/ change your number once you’ve told them?
Just don’t underestimate the impact and the toll that can take on you while you are vulnerable.
Remember you owe them nothing . Not even an explanation. Put ‘you’ first .

@Gerwurtztraminer that has made me feel so sad 😞. Sad for small you. To have felt that afraid and alone and scared . Scared doesn’t cut it, not the correct adjective at all.
I mean what the hell goes through their minds when they pull this shit!
My TM is currently doing this recently but vicariously through my dsis.
I jokingly refer to TM lately as ‘the town crier’ but it’s so much more insidious and damaging than that. Practically basking in someone else’s Ill health in order to get a spot centre stage .
Like a child that wilfully will not be diverted from grabbing attention. Except she’s not a child. She’s my farkin mother!

I hope this does not offend but I feel disappointed that you say the cord is not entirely cut naturally by death .

Thanks Smithfield. That incident is a bit sad I guess, but actually I generally think I had an OK childhood really. Certainly made me pretty resilient and independent which isn't a bad thing.

Her drama queening backfired as if she genuinely was ill we tended not to believe her. She fainted, fell and knocked herself out once (no one was home or saw it) and we were all, oh yeah you bumped your head, yep there's a lump. Took herself off to A&E and she had concussion. Had to be kept in for observation so she was very happy.

I don't meant they stay in your head constantly by the way, just the random memories every now and then. Like a crackly phone call from the past once in a blue moon.

Hi everyone, have been reading and nodding along with so much as I’m sure many have.

DH visited TILs the other day (seems appropriate terminology as the behaviour extends to his siblings and GPs as well as parents) all was well until everyone arrived for a visit from a family member based abroad (so there was an audience) and his GM commented “DH never visits us” to which he responded “really? I was at TMs (with all of you) 2 weeks ago and round here 3 weeks ago” this was met with silence.

He went to see the family member who is based abroad, they were doing “one visit” on their travels so had all gathered at his GMs, he does usually leave far longer between visits for this reason.

I’ve learnt so much about Narc behaviour here, it’s all about them. If I wanted to see someone more I would arrange it, I would make an effort to see them. I wouldn’t sit, wait for a visit, making no contact with them myself and then criticise them when they did arrive. It doesn’t seem a recipe for someone wanting to spend more time with you. But it’s not about that is it?

He’s the scapegoat, he keeps most information to himself as it is only used against him so all they can do is criticise the lack of contact as they know nothing else. They prattled on and on about SIL visiting a very expensive place for a meal and DN being wonderful at a new activity.

DH sat there with DC while they bragged and didn’t ask DC anything at all.

You are there merely as an audience to their performance. It’s not a relationship or a conversation. It’s like watching a small child who says “look at me, look at me, look at what I can do, watch me, are you watching? You’re not looking! Look at me”

And they wonder why DH doesn’t want to skip round there for more of a rundown of how sh1t he is for not dancing to their tune and how wonderful all these people are who play their little games.

They genuinely have zero awareness and as has been said up thread are spectacularly dim!

Very little point to this really, it just sometimes helps to get these thoughts out my head and onto a space for people to read who aren’t oblivious to it or who tell me things like “I’m sure they don’t meant it”.

@Notmenottoday

‘You are there merely as an audience to their performance. It’s not a relationship or a conversation. It’s like watching a small child who says “look at me, look at me, look at what I can do, watch me, are you watching? You’re not looking! Look at me”

I could have written this myself! I’ve stopped putting myself in this situation now because it was so damaging. I’d take weeks to get over a visit.
When it trickles down to the DC as well. Look at OUR DC, look at us!

Give your DH a massive squeeze.

Thanks for sharing this because even now I question I’d I am being too sensitive, missing something…. Nope .
They are really just a writhing cess pool of Narcs and they are welcome to each other.

Hopefully your DH will really limit visits from here on in? How emotionally detached is he from them? The impact post visit is key.

@Notmenottoday I read your post and it’s made me feel really sad. Your poor husband as SG. It’s really hard to watch that game playing and shaming of a loved one. But how brilliant you are there for him and you two together are not replicating toxic drama.

Hag phoned at 7.57am wanting a pint of milk. Woke us up.

No words.

She has fucking carers who go in at 9.30am.

“Oh, I don’t want to bother them”

@MonkeyfromManchester you must feel exasperated!

I just turned over and went back to sleep, I left Mr Monkey to deal with it.

It’s so depressing.

I couldn’t be bothered with any of the drama this morning.

I can’t believe this is my life.

I know I shouldn’t have looked ! I’m an idiot.
I blocked the FB feed of GB and SIL simply because I get sick of their constant narc showmanship.

They NEVER feature pics of TM. My SIL hates her and always complains about her .
There are photos of a trip with them all smiling and acting up to the camera. TM beaming, aren’t I a great GM.
Only a month ago Gb confessed he told TM to ‘shut the f up!’.
This is clearly aimed at me as GB and SIL know I am on FB ( don’t know I limit their feeds)
Even worse they are visiting and doing a similar activity to what I just did with DD??
Bearing in mind I am trying to shield myself and my DD from the comparison that will be made between GBs DS and my DS’s ( they are the same age and DS is SEN and goes to local great comp btw not the expensive private DN attends )

What a nasty bunch of Toxic a’holes they all are… feeding off someone else’s upset in order to feel better about themselves .

This is what she does best … bleating , lying , miserable hag… I hate her!

@therealsmithfield it’s a toxic pool.

GB and your TM are in some toxic dance where they feed off each other. Your brother can’t break free even if he thinks he can (shut the f up). But you’re free which is brilliant.

That doesn’t take away the hurt of being the belittled and abused child. Hug to you.

Totally, totally, totally get the hate.

Thank you @MonkeyfromManchester your acknowledgment of the hurt and pain is much needed at this moment and appreciated greatly.

Hang in there with DH, he is lucky to have you beside him but it’s a toll on you too. Remind him if that xx

@therealsmithfield you’re welcome and thank you. No one who’s not lived this shit gets how insidious it is. I totally understand. It’s exhausting.

He’s hoovering - he’s got cleaning OCD which is great as I hate cleaning!

Xxxx

Thank you @therealsmithfield and @MonkeyfromManchester for reading and understanding!

Normally I would say DH is pretty emotionally detached though I could see how hurt he was the other day and it broke my heart. I think the addition of another family member who isn’t usually in the mixed added to the feeling of rejection as this was played out in front of them. Usually DH would only see them once every few months, it’s just been a bit of an unusual course of events with this visit.

I too often wonder if I am over reacting to some thing but thank you for the reassurance. It’s so underhand and passive it has you questioning your own feelings.

The Hag really is unreal! Similarly why does she think this sort of behaviour will attract any other feeling than annoyance!?? They don’t think like that do they though, their main objective is self serving and how their behaviour makes the recipient feel is irrelevant.

I sympathise with the social media irritation! I removed myself from social media for the same reason, it’s all crap and just a show but it still irritates and makes you feel shit having to see it

@Notmenottoday you’re welcome. You’re not overreaching or imagining things at all. Narcs love showtime and a new person to drag into the drama like the family member. It’s so so so hurtful to see that being done to someone you love. Awful. You are a rock to your DH and that’s brilliant.

I feel AWFUL today. I’m dreading tomorrow. I absolutely hate seeing The Hag and I’m anxious to the point of shaking.

But I am going to go to Mr Monkey’s event tomorrow because it’s important that I’m there for him and I want to go because it’s something I’m interested in.

But all I want to do is move 17k miles away from the absolute toxic bitch.

I need to remind myself how far I’ve come 1) I don’t deal with her medical appointments 2) I don’t talk on the phone to her 3) I don’t go into her ‘home’ 4) I’m out of the loop on the constant pity party because I don’t engage in person or on the phone 5) I’ve severely rationed my exposure to her 6) I don’t take her for hair appointments 6) I’ve got boundaries 7) I’ve supported MM to get boundaries 7) I no longer excuse her behaviour or hide it - I’m open about my dislike.

Got to keep reminding myself how good all of this - I’ve got here in 18 months. It’s GOOD. Sorry if I’m repeating myself.

I think I’ve done really well - just have to keep reminding myself of this. I actually think I’ve got some kind of PTSD from the last two years of this shit with her or is TSD a because I’m still in it!? MM thinks he has it from his awful childhood.

Mental health isn’t the best - bipolar - but god, this horrible situation with this toxic evil leech really knocks if out of me sometimes.

@Notmenottoday I have NO idea what goes on in The Hag’s head. She’s a total sociopath.

She’s also had a stomach upset.

Cue huge drama. With further phone calls.

Just drink a load of water, eat some dry toast and FUCK OFF.

We do not need phone calls about it.

Oh , but you’re well enough to go to the supermarket with Slave Son.

Of course you are.

@MonkeyfromManchester

This line

Just drink a load of water, eat some dry toast and FUCK OFF.

Made my evening!

@therealsmithfield

I make myself laugh so much at how fucking ludicrous she is.

It is a stomach upset.

You are an adult.

You have brought up (dragged up) three children.

You drink water and eat toast.

That is it.

@MonkeyfromManchester - hope all goes well for MM tomorrow. Just focus on him and your interest and try and box her off in your head. Easier said- but given her too much space in your mind is her winning . Deep breath - you’ve got this !

Not been on for a good 6 months. NC now with siblings for 2 years after unforgivable behaviour. But it’s really really hard holding out. I feel so lonely now. Maybe it’s a stage in the grief process - all the anger has exhausted me and has gone. Facing a 3rd Xmas, other important family milestones, a new niece due which I will be excluded from.

I think going back would be disastrous but this is so v hard - is it worth it? Does it get worse before it gets better?

Reading that average estrangement is 7 years …. So not life long - what happens then - is it just not worth staying NC?

@Sssloou I don’t know your back story. Sorry your struggling. Do you have your own family unit or are you completely on your own?
It’s definitely not a straight trajectory.
I will say I used to dread Xmas . Now it is my favourite time of year. Honestly.
I know I have been LC for last 5 years ( was NC prior to that) but I made a decision I would never spend ‘special occasions’ with them.

Sssloou

NC is a grieving process with many turns; you ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Your siblings have indeed behaved appallingly towards you. With you out of the frame hopefully they will now further turn against each other. You're saying no to being further abused and otherwise mistreated at their hands.

You would not put up with this from a friend so you should not put up with lousy and or otherwise toxic behaviour from relatives either. I do empathise re your niece but she will be further influenced by her parents and you would likely not see her much in any case even if your family of origin was emotionally healthy. I used to get on well with my cousins when we were children but they lived a long ways from us and so we barely saw them. I would not recognise any of them now; like them we made our own local based friends.

Christmas is but two days in the year. We started to go on holiday at Christmas particularly after one incident of MIL behaving badly in our home (eviangate). That one small thing further crystallised in my mind just how crap, narcissistic and self serving she is (she gave us separate Christmas cards for many years even after marriage, even my disinterested parents did not do that!) and always has been. I see her very rarely these days and never spend any time on my own with her. She is widowed now and made her H's funeral all about her too.