June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I definitely had the realisation with the birth of my first child - up until then I really believed something was intrinsically wrong with me. Born bad.
When you hold your own child in your arms .. you just know!
I’ve come such a long way since then… but the journey is no where near complete.

Self love and acceptance is what I need to work on now. I don’t need their approval anymore .

The thing is of course you normalise your own childhood, who wouldn’t .

I do wonder why no one could see what was happening to me as a kid and why no one stepped in. I tried to tell my GM but she looked horrified and wouldn’t believe me.

@Eatingjumper - that realisation that they will never change is so tough to process. Sending solidarity to you and I hope you find the strength to hold fast with your boundaries and low contact.

@Backonceagainwiththe - oh, the shitty thoughtless gifting scenario... yep. My (narc) sister is a master at it. All those Christmas/birthday "gifts" which were so completely and hurtfully shit including stuff she'd clearly just not bothered to put in a charity bag or take to the tip.

@Eatingjumper and others.
Classic bully behaviour. Based on shame of self. Putting others down in the hope of feeling better about oneself. Never works though. Its grinding living with it over a lifetime. I don't think any of us would put down our dc to feel better.
I do believe that this kind of behaviour was much more common in the previous generation though. Certainly bullying by teachers and in the workplace was completely acceptable. Misogynistic culture too. An element of survival of the fittest. And in the case of us with parents over 70 then they were raised by parents who lived through WW2 and some of them had significant trauma. A cultural sense of entitlement but also tough times not just swinging 60s. Definitely all contributes. My parents have had some significant life trauma predating my birth. But I still don't think that means its ok. There are always reasons but people can make choices too. This is why I am not angry just sad.

@Backonceagainwiththe and all , there is definitely a backdrop to a lot of this and my maternal GM did not hug. Yet I knew she loved me. She was incredibly shy and grew up very poor and was the only survivor of six siblings . She saw each sibling buried before they were 12 years old from childhood illnesses. So incredibly sad. We found her sisters glasses she’d kept when she passed 🥲. She lived through ww2 and had a roof collapse in on her and her and my uncle from a London bombing. She miscarried just before she had my mum. So much pain. She never spoke of it of course.
Yet I knew she loved me.
If it wasn’t for her I’m not sure if I’d still be here.
TM has a lot of shame from being poor. She is very bright and went to grammar ( hence the shame as she had 2nd hand uniforms , got picked on). GM supported her with childcare whilst she worked and whilst she didn’t. The marriage was not great and very toxic .
However in many respects She’s had a good life and now has wealth ( her priority not mine) . 4 healthy kids who would roll over should she show an ounce of real warmth or love.
That’s the difference. You can have pain and suffering and not be Toxic . Or indeed no real pain and suffering and be to borrow @MonkeyfromManchesters great descriptor an ‘old hag’.
I’ll never forgive her, for her isolation and abuse.
I have a good life now in spite of her and intend to enjoy it.
Yes resilience is what these cards that were dealt brings someone in our shoes. We will have the best life ‘in spite’ of them.
I remember @AttilaTheMeerkat telling me to do just that many years back… go live your best life Smithfield. It’s the best revenge 🥰

I agree that there has undoubtedly been trauma or abuse of some kind in their own lives. There really are no winners in a situation like this. I certainly know that my dad's mother was a mean, nasty woman. I grew up being very aware that she hated my mum, and felt she was never good enough for her golden boy only son. It was a family joke. Now I am disgusted that my dad let her treat my mum that way, and baffled by all the other adults in the room that thought it was fine for all the children to see this. I do wonder about my mum's upbringing as it can't be a coincidence that both her and her sister married alcoholics. It just can't, they've gone for something familiar there. I feel sad for them when I hear how full of hate they are - deeply, deeply mysoginistic views, which is especially upsetting coming from my mum, and racist. My mum was a teacher her whole life, what has she inflicted on the children in her care over the years with such strong views as she has? I remember her telling me about some "terrible" children in her class, who were also very poor, chaotic family life etc. I said that there's no such thing as inherently bad children and to think of the very difficult circumstances in their family, how hard that must be for those children. She told me uncategorically that some children are just bad news and thats the way it is.

It's frustrating that they will never recognise this. I've tried for years but the message never gets through. I refuse to do the same to my children. I want better for us all. I wish I could just close the door on it all completely but I just can't.

@Eatingjumper that’s so interesting you say that. My mother also was a teacher . Has similar views also. She also believes intrinsically bright/ or not end of… no late bloomers . Would laugh at this notion.
This triggers me greatly as my DS is sen yet incredibly bright but discounted in lieu of GBs ds . Similar set up to GB and I except I missed a lot of school as I was very poorly as a child followed by huge trauma when dad suddenly left us for another woman. I was 5 and moved to live with my aunt and cousins whom I’d never met. Sharing a bed with several cousins and began bed wetting for which I was shamed .
One of the most poignant and life shaping moments was age 6 stood in a kitchen with my report which I was so excited to share. She looked down at me and sighed ‘ well Smithfield looks like you will always be just average’. It shocked and wounded me to the core. I mean what’s the point of trying if you already know your outcome.
Pegged at 6.
In my early 30s I got accepted to study law as a masters part time at a very prestigious university. I was so sure she would be absolutely giddy with pride. She said ‘oh’. We never spoke of it again.
Thankfully she only worked in schools intermittently. Thank the Lord for small mercies!

And yes their lack of insight is crazy making . You think if you could just open their eyes for them!
I twisted myself in knots trying for many years..

Omg my dm also poor grammar kid and forced into teaching which she was terrible at and left with ill health and she couldn't seem to hold down a job. Then we were quite badly off as my df had a poorly paid job plus recessions and Northern area in decline. So I think there's definitely an issue here that's perhaps a feminist one. I do meet/have met a lot of women like my DM. There's a definite bitter type. Men also dominate these women. Do wonder what todays generation will be like with grown children as its a different time. We are all describing baby boomer women from poor backgrounds who were educated but didn't fulfil potential. Somehow blame children for that etc.
Definitely they think we have it comparatively easy. Jealousy definitely. I think in some ways we do and others we don't. And its very hard for families to make ends meet these days. That's been proven over and over. Unsurprisingly these kind of stories and facts are not of interest to my dps and are vigorously argued. No one has had it as bad as them whilst simultaneously professing that they are grateful for their lot.

Just received 2 good luck for school cards in the post for dc from DM... no note to me. She hasn't spoken to the dc since May I think. Had to point out to DH this wasn't the kind gesture he thinks it is.

I'd be putting those cards in the shredder if you have not already done this; do not give these any more power than they already have.

@Backonceagainwiththe yes ! Yes and yes !
Dominant father ( maternal GF) . Dominant male marriage . Think part of reason DF left for ow ( he came back btw) was because he didn’t want TM to work. Yes , work made her Ill too when she eventually went back.
Driven by jealousy. 💯
Interestingly I have one friend who has a similar mother to me - also bright , Grammar, teacher .
Friend and I don’t discuss, it’s only derived from how she is and what she says . Interestingly oldest sibling is NC. Interesting pattern.

Great article here about letting go!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/tech-support/201801/healing-toxic-childhood-the-two-words-you-need-most%3famp

Thanks. Yep stuck on stage 3! Have bookmarked @therealsmithfield

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes. I did manage to explain to DH this was about her feeling better and nothing to do with the DCs feelings. And of course a dig at me. She believes I'm keeping the DC from her but she could pick up the phone, she chooses not to. She prob wants me to have a go at her too to reinforce that its my fault. Last of all if at all is it any kind of real concern for the dcs new year at school. DH said I should give them. I have. They weren't hugely interested as DC their age are not interested in cards because why would they be. DP have always been obsessed with cards and really don't get that children don't give a monkeys about them as a general rule. They seem unable to learn this information. It's not even unwilling. They can be spectacularly dim.
Any power she had with cards has evaporated and I won't be giving them any further power.

@therealsmithfield I’ll be showing that article to Mr Monkey. It is EXACTLY what he’s been doing over the last two years with his vile mother aka The Hag. I’m so proud of him. I don’t think he’s read anything, nor have I (just tons of support here - this group is AMAZING) but every step in that article resonates with me as a process to self-protection and building self-worth. I think anyone experiencing the inevitable wobbles - it’s not a straight path - in changing the relationship with the toxic twats in their lives has found a great resource.

Lots of catch up to do - big hello to all the new people here.

Back from blissful Wales on Tuesday. The first phone call (Weds) to The Hag by Mr Monkey is pleasant. Last night, far less so.

Obviously, Weds is “oh good I’ve got my Narc supply back”

Thursday - she resorts to type.

On Sunday, there’s an event for a project that MM has worked on as a volunteer for the last two years. So, it’s been arranged that we’ll go as a family (I laugh when I write that word in relation to The Hag) and include my mum. The Hag has selective hearing so has ‘forgotten’ mummy Monkey is going.

In her nirvana, i or my happy family do not exist.

Hag: so how are we getting there (we don’t drive)
MM: Monkey’s mum is driving over (lives in the country) and she’ll pick us up, you and your slave (battered into submission BIL)
There’s some word salad (love that phrase) and she processing the fact that my mum is going. The Hag is hugely jealous of my mum (happy, gets on with life) which has bubbled under the surface for years. The Hag knows that my mum now has her measure after the shit the Hag has doled out to us over the last two years. The Hag knows that we enjoy spending time with my mum. The Hag knows she’s lost control.
MM: it’s great that everyone is going as I’m probably going to be helping with the event.
Hag: I thought I was spending time with YOU. MY OWN SON. (Note: no mention of her darling daughter in law - lol - or brother in law.)

This isn’t remotely about MM dashing around the room organising things, this is about the Hag not being the centre of attention and not having control.

So, it descends into the usual rage about something* It’s so funny as we both can now see the pattern.

Rage time because MM hasn’t gone

“no, you’re right, let’s tell Monkey and Mummy Monkey to fuck right off - in fact, I’m packing Monkey’s cases right now - and I can join Stockholm Syndrome Brother In Law in a toxic triangle with you.”

She’s so transparent. Now I see it ALL.

*the something menu is 1) clothes (her clothes are a state but she won’t do anything about it) 2) her flat (ditto) 3) grandsons (she doesn’t bother to see them) 4) her carers 5) her hair.

She picks item 5 for her rage.

‘My hair is a state. I can’t go out like this’

MM calmly gives choices - hairdressers, carers, mobile hairdresser.
Every choice cues rage and refusal.

MM: well, those are your choices.
Hag: apoplectic rage. And hangs up.

MM: maybe, I should ring the hairdressers and book her an appointment in the morning.
Me: really? That’s basically saying her behaviour is OK.
MM: no, you’re right.

She didn’t at ANY point say thank you for a lift. She doesn’t also reflect that my mum is a widow and, maybe, doesn’t have anything planned that day. She doesn’t say “oh, I’m really looking forward to seeing your project. I’m so proud of you.”

Everything is about The Hag. Every single thing.

In the past, I would have been a peacemaker (hate conflict) and he would have been a people pleaser. No more.

I’m so proud of him.

I will have to endure four hours of her company on Sunday.

She might have a strop and decide not to come to ‘punish’ us.

Fingers crossed.

@Backonceagainwiththe BRILLIANT. I love your line about ‘spectacularly dim’. The journey with The Hag has seen me not seeing her behaviour properly and what it is (coercive narcissistic toxic behaviour) or excusing it. The same with Mr Monkey.

It’s great when you get to the point of taking the power away. The lights come on.

It's been so helpful reading other people's accounts of how they have dealt with their families. It's honestly opened my eyes to the possibility that there is another way to live that might be - not necessarily better than this, as I really wish things weren't coming to this - freer, perhaps? Less living under a constant shadow? I am only just starting to apply boundaries, and I haven't actively communicated them, which is probably not the most grown up way to do it. I've just stopped ringing so often (it was always me that had to ring), and I think my mum has started to notice in this last fortnight. She's started to ring me and message me, which she never really did before. And I can tell from her short, clipped messages that she senses dissent. It's remarkable how much I panic when I see her name pop up on my phone. I don't answer and message later to simply say I will ring them at the weekend. I think there is going to be a bit of a blow up at some point soon as the baby will be here in December and we don't want them to visit (I live a few hours away) for a while. Its not going to go down well, I can already pretty much write the script. They'll be talking about "access" to my children, how selfish I am, what have they ever done to deserve this. I'm dreading it, frankly. Has anyone here dealt with this at such an emotionally fragile time, or got any of their own stories to share about what happened when LC boundaries were actually verbalised?

@therealsmithfield I'm not surprised that triggers you with a SEN child. I sometimes think my parents cannot see the link between the things they say and how it actually impacts on others, especially their own children. They are entitled to say whatever they like with impunity, otherwise see it as not being allowed to say anything, walking on eggshells. Whereas I see it as mean, nasty, and a lot of instances, shows me what they really think of me as a person. They think women are liars, sluts, always to blame, too fat, too vain, ugly, too sexy. All the women who married my make cousins are hated - all of them to blame for something. My personal favourite is their beliefs around any woman speaking out about sexual abuse in later life. If they think these things about these women....I am also one of "these women". So they think it about me. But it doesn't get through. I've been screaming into the void for years, they don't hear me. It's not a problem for them, therefore it's not a problem full stop and I'm too sensitive and won't let them say anything. Fricking exhausting when you really see it for what it is.

@Eatingjumper

‘….the link between the things they say and how it actually impacts on others, especially their own children’

Yes they don’t have any empathy and so their children are merely an extension of themselves. Hence rejection of the child if they don’t paint them in a good light and vice versa.

‘They think women are liars, sluts, always to blame, too fat, too vain, ugly, too sexy.’

That must have been really hard for you to grow up around.
I definitely had to play down any womanly -ness lest it angered my mother ( jealousy) or triggered my father ( women / females should have no power). Thus led to some very skewed thinking around my femininity. I am
Completely unable to own it if that makes sense.

With regard to limiting contact - you need to take care of you first and foremost. Your mum will up the anti considerably and be prepared she may well feign illness .
My mother developed a lump in her breast and it may seem callous but I knew it would be benign and she will have utilised this to get to me. She used her foot soldiers (siblings) to do that. I pretended I had lost my mobile phone just prior to that and so she bought me one . DH stepped in and gave her a firm no. That’s when she became ‘ill’.
So if I can give you any advise it is, be prepared that this will happen. Know it will pass and ask your husband to stand ‘firmly’ between you and them, especially her.
All contact through him going forward and ask him not to relay anything back to you.
I can also tell you it was 💯 the best decision I ever made. The contrast between dd’s and ds birth was crazy.
We were relaxed and chilled and happy - I had her with just gas and air. We laughed afterwards how the staff thought I wasn’t even in labour so DH nearly missed her arrival . He and a
Midwife pegging it through the hospital late at night.
I was home the next day!

Great quote; ‘ stop feeling bad for outgrowing people that had the chance to grow with you’

Hello all.

I've been on this site for a while but I don't think I've posted on this thread before.

Things between me and my parents came to a head on Monday after years of complete dysfunction and abuse. It was my father's birthday, I got stuck in bank holiday traffic and was late getting to their house. When I arrived, I received slow hand claps as I walked up the drive. I finally lost it, screamed that I had enough and marched off. After years and years of being unwanted, belittled and abused, I've let go. I no longer care. They are welcome to each other. The relief is immense. I feel freer if not quite free.

@handslikecowstits ( hope that’s in reference to them!) what a bunch of passive aggressive, thoughtless twats.
It’s never the specific ‘act’, ‘word’, moment that triggers it.
When I say ‘it’ I’m referring to that final awakening or epiphany, that it’s not ‘you’.
Congratulations and well done for sticking up for ‘you’ . Adult you and the child you that deserved so much better.
You’ve got this 👊🏻

@therealsmithfield

Thanks for this. I'm normally quite eloquent but all I seem to be able to say is, 'I've had enough' over and over.

@handslikecowstits - it took huge guts and ‘I’ve had enough’ is sufficient. They don’t deserve eloquence. Save that for people that deserve it.
Maybe you needed to repeat because to borrow @Backonceagainwiththe they are really quite dim? In needed repeating!

@handslikecowstits (love your name BTW ) it seems like it's something small and innocuous to outsiders, but it's really the straw that broke the camels back, isn't it. Its not this incident, its that this is another in a long line of shitty little digs. Have you thought about your next move, or is it game over completely as of now? I can completely understand your "I've had enough". It's exhausting, isn't it.

@Eatingjumper

Game over. We all want our parents' approval but I don't care now. Really. I've said that before but haven't really meant it. I mean it now. I'm 43 and I've had enough.

To those who are struggling with their families: I understand we all have crosses to be bear and family dynamics are different but it's OK to stand up for yourself and drop the ball, step back and say 'enough'. It's a big decision to make and there will be consequences but I'd say that sometimes you just have to give up.

I also know that the flying monkeys will start swooping in soon. I am an only child but my father is very good at playing the victim so I'll be getting phone calls soon. They will be told to go forth and multiply too.