June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Notmenottoday - ‘

but I wonder if I’ll just have to learn to live with it while I try to improve a little along the way.‘

This is not something I’ve not thought about and I find that really helpful and comforting. I’m feeling like these issues are insurmountable . Shifting the perspective like this changes the insurmountability of it all.

So perhaps this more about self acceptance than anything?

Re triggers——Yes, Being asked for information triggers me. Where are you? Where are you going ? All scream I need the info/ dirt . Hit a wall when TM demanded info on my DS.

@therealsmithfield

Completely, I focused so long for so many years on wanting to get past this and have this feeling “gone” the reality is that is probably quite unlikely so I try to look at it differently now and take little improvements as big victories. Even saying no to someone is a big deal for me, especially if that someone has an expectation I’ll say yes and “fix it”.

I’m pleased this has provided you with some comfort, baby steps and pat yourself on the back along the way. Celebrate your wins and look back only to see how far you’ve come.

Oh god yes, any questioning like that feels like being drilled for information and instantly gets my back up! Completely relate when it applies to your DC, amazing how much we can put up with ourselves but when it comes to the DC it’s a different story! Thankfully!!

I am the family organiser and fixer. I also do this for all the friends we've had. I've had enough.
I haven't been invited for a meal at someone's house (including my own parents) for about 4 years.
I fix things for my kids and it isn't reciprocated as much.
I then thought perhaps this constant fixing is annoying so I dialed it back and that's when the fall out started!
I even do a 'fix it job' as a profession. I'm a professional people pleaser. I'm really good at project management and project planning as I've been doing it since age 8!
My parents have NEVER organised one single thing for me. I only realised this was even true or odd about 2 years ago. I have organised every single family occasion for 20 years. I even buy the presents they 'give' to my children (with their money that they topped up. This sounds mad I know). This has stopped now. It started to majorly unravel when this year they tried to send me £20 to 'buy the Kids Easter eggs' as it was still a kind of lockdown although not really. I said why don't you just send them an Easter gift or buy something online (they can use Internet but they are tight). They got really angry about this. Couldn't see why I would say this. Why I couldn't go and buy an egg from them. In the end they sent the £20 in an envelope addressed to the kids with a brief Easter note. No note to us. I sent them a small Easter chocolate gift and card. They live 2 hrs away not overseas. I didn't get anything from them. Not even a Happy Easter. It was the final straw tbh. I still went and bought extra eggs so the kids had some on Easter Sunday. The present buying was because I wanted the kids to have nice things instead of the cash in an envelope I had as a child (not a big wad either).
This isn't normal is it? My DHs DF doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the kids so nothing to compare and such a dysfunctional childhood regards present giving. Tight as anything.

Good grief @Backonceagainwiththe ! That’s just awful . So lacking in any kind of respect for you or your DCs. So disingenuous too.
Must have felt horrendous once you had that realisation. Makes me really sad.
This is the same for me , with presents but interestingly not TM. She just badgers from her armchair until I send her a link for the exact thing dcs want sourced by moi. She won’t send money or vouchers as she doesn’t like to appear tight to DCs . Even though she is ( she is also loaded)
She sends me and DH gifts - I suspect ( well know for a fact) these are sourced by her local lackey dsis.
I must admit that did make me lol when you said professional fixer . I burn myself out at work from people pleasing and fixing.
You deserve so much better ! So so much better. Hope you are at least beginning to KNOW that on a deeper level.
Sod those old friends , you will find new ones and on an equal playing field. Friends that will treat your time and friendship in far more balanced footing and nurturing manner.
Overall I have better friendships now than I had in my 20’s - had some real corkers including exes 🤔

I also identify with that list, definitely seen as the fixer too. Numerous times I’ve been called by TM about the latest ‘family crisis!’ without any consideration for my circumstances, constant moaning about how awful and difficult lockdown has been for them (despite their day to day lives being relatively unaffected) but completely oblivious to the childcare challenges we’ve had.

Help me here....Do you honestly all think the Easter thing was awful?!? I ask because no one including DH has ever validated that things like this are so rubbish. I think they are kind of but I don't know. it is controlling because why not buy a gift if someone says the DC would prefer it. It just takes effort that's all. They don't have anything else to do. DH thinks because 20 quid is better than bugger all so won't engage. This is by no means the worst example just the most recent
I have seen them once since then and my dm moaned that the place we had picked to meet was too windy (it was that unusual summer storm a month or so ago). Everywhere was windy. I must admit I did chuckle which was a breakthrough moment for me. I didnt try to solve the issue or feel guilty.
I've done the opposite to you. Tried to pretend to my DC that dgp are generous. But they notice they are tight now anyway so whats the point. (They aren't wealthy but not in poverty either and its the thought not value).

@seethecolours we aren’t real people to them . Just an extension of themselves. All paths leading back to their needs. There is no good will to the relationship.

@Backonceagainwiththe I agree it is absolutely the thought that counts. My point is her gifts are thought .,less. She likes to appear as though she is thoughtful and it keeps her connected to me.

If the Easter egg story was in isolation it would be different but it’s years of abuse and neglect isn’t it. So you need to feel validated because their behaviour is neglectful and I don’t doubt for a minute that is not just top of the iceberg. I felt for you having to buy your own gifts . That made me sad.

Everyone’s stories make me sad . It’s very painful for all of us on here yet everyone still finds the time to listen and respond to each other. We get more support from strangers on a board than our own RL family or origin , which is just shifty isn’t it.

It really hit me after pandemic when I would see groups of family meeting up . So happy to see each other.

@seethecolours have you spoken to your brother? I really hope he sees sense and gets the hell out before it’s too late.
At least whatever happens he has you. You clearly deeply care what happens to him.

@therealsmithfield thank you.

And yes it is crap seeing everyone gush about how nice it is to meet up and see each other again .. but not for us. Very painful. I do think there's a lot like us though.
Its been a very sad time. I'm mindful of the words (apologies its biblical but also in the 60s pop song!)
For every season there is a purpose... that's kind of how I view covid (listen if you have Spotify or similar).
Best wishes to you all

@Backonceagainwiththe you are justified in your feelings about the gift thing and it’s likely just one example of them expecting you to fix it. I also had a chuckle at “professional people pleaser” though it’s really no surprise we fall into these roles professionally when we’re so well trained.

MIL always asks what DC would like as gifts, we’re to provide the ideas and she wants the glory of buying the thing they want. God forbid she took the time herself to find out what might be on the wish list by getting to know said DC but there you go. On one occasion he suggested an afternoon out rather than a gift as that’s someone that would probably be more enjoyed and appreciated. She said “don’t be ridiculous, they need something to open” almost a decade and she has still never taken DC out, not once, not interested. Has her own agenda.

Take GC’s DC out though of course… but that’s different

That should say DH suggested but you get the idea

@Notmenottoday can totally understand how that feels. It is so subtle but so hurtful. Weve had the same (but given money by bacs and exact amount too. Rather than going to shop. I always top up too..what a fool I am because my dc don't know its me). Its just crazy how these toxic parents all perform the same. Including my dm saying 'something to open' too.
How can someone be so hell bent on perpetuating disappointing in others. I assume they are deeply deeply disappointed with themselves (narcissists have poor sense of self/self loathing I think theory goes) and think everyone should be a bit disappointed too because life is disappointing (but of mental health there too). But its infectious and I won't let them disappoint my dc. What kind of thinks its ok to disappoint a 10 year old?!? My childhood has an air of disappointment to it. Certainly not 'Angela's Ashes' but that's the point of Stately.Homes isn't it..how sad for them. What a waste of a life.
Let's not let them waste ours (completely..I'm well over half way now )

Notmenottoday

re your comment:-
"MIL always asks what DC would like as gifts, we’re to provide the ideas and she wants the glory of buying the thing they want. God forbid she took the time herself to find out what might be on the wish list by getting to know said DC but there you go"

My MIL has done that self same behaviour too for all of us. Her MO is to ask DH for a list of items and then he e-mails her a list with the amazon links attached. She will then choose one and order it (one time my present was wrapped up still in its amazon packaging!).

Narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either. She, like her late narcissistic H has money and like he was is tighter than a gnats arse. My parents (both are thankfully not narcissists) have kept their own counsel but have said my inlaws are "weird".

MIL also gave us separate Christmas cards for years until I spoke to DH about this explaining how crap this actually was and made me feel. Unless you live such a reality you really don't realise that some people actually behave like this and think its okay.

They think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

I've also worked with a narcissist and anyone who is also unfortunate enough to come across them in the workplace has my utmost sympathy.

How depressing to have never experienced the joy of getting and giving someone a surprise gift they love.
Unfortunately my credit card shows the signs of someone who has gone too far in the opposite direction with their own DC!

Absolutely @Backonceagainwiththe so sad that everything is considered and a “move” rather than just doing something nice to make someone smile.

@AttilaTheMeerkat you are so right as always, it’s mad to see how much of this behaviour is repeated in these people! My DH has been gifted “prizes” from MIL and we have definitely had things returned to us we have given. SIL has recently jumped on the bangwagon and started giving us things we known have been given to her or have come free as part of a subscription (as we use similar service). The premise is the same, look at all these gifts I’m giving you! Wrapped up in fancy paper and bows though the contents don’t match the dresses up wrapping.

Two separate cards for years speaks volumes! MIL gives us one card but signs it with two names, rather than just put “from mum” she will put mum leave a space and then write her name, as if I am somehow unclear on the fact she is not my mother

It must be exhausting for them to calculate every single interaction.

@Notmenottoday GB and his wife have been quite open about re- gifting when their DC have received a double up gift or something they don’t like or want.
They also bring back free alcohol from their rooms when on holiday and gift that.
I have him a gift that was clearly not good enough for his 40th and he sent it to My DS a few weeks later as a birthday gift.
I don’t even send gifts to them anymore -used to tie myself in knots picking perfect gifts for all of them.
it’s not appreciated anyway, will probably end up in someone else’s house and frankly I can’t be arsed !

@Backonceagainwiththe as a bit of a lurker who has been working up to posting here, I have to say that your posts have really resonated with me. Also a project manager here - I call myself a professional problem solver and I guess I know why. I also have the same issue. My parents want me and my brother to tell them what DC want for Christmas/birthday/whatever, then we have to buy it for them as its too much hassle and "you might as well since you know what they want". If brother or I dare to suggest that we have a lot of other things on our to do list as we both work full time, have kids, plus all the other people we have to buy gifts for - we are selfish, wouldn't do anything for anyone, they are sick of our attitude. They are retired fully, so have nothing but time. Then they complain that the kids have too much and don't need anything, and it's too much money. Okay then, don't get them anything? Or think of something yourself that is in the budget you prefer? They are the type that like to throw money instead of any kind of actual thought, but they are also tight so they resent having to even do that. I thought it was a bit crap when they just did it to me, but now I hate to watch it for my kids.

I'm really trying to set and stick to boundaries with them but I'm feeling very guilty and afraid at the moment.

@Eatingjumper I'm pleased you posted. I'm an intermittent lurker/poster. I've found comfort posting recently as my head in a spin.
Literally could have written your words!
Tight people don't like the thought of their money being wasted and my DP are very lacking in confidence too. If a present was wrong they would be annoyed with the money wasted. They don't spend a lot on themselves either. They're not well off to be fair. But they don't seem to understand the value v thought thing. Yes they think our children are spoilt. They resent we are not poor either. We aren't rich just overcompensating. It makes them angry rather than proud that we do professional jobs. They're never said it but can tell. They think we should suffer a bit (btw we have a disabled child so it's not all bread and roses far from it).
I can't heal a lifetime of disappointment, regret and depression. I've definitely been trying to. Not even subconsciously. But eventually every boat leaks. That's the bit I'm struggling with currently. That and the grief from accepting and knowing there is no chance now of things changing. Its taken 3 years to get to this point though.

Sorry I meant I can't heal them and been trying to. I can heal me.

Oh bless you @Backonceagainwiththe it’s really hard when the realisation hits you , and the grief ! It feels like it will never end… but it will. Be extra kind to yourself.

@Eatingjumper I’m glad you posted too. I don’t feel guilt but definitely fear. Yes because of imposing stricter boundaries and pushing back - this is a left over feeling from my childhood. I must truly believe ‘still’ at a visceral level that she (TM) will destroy me for going against her.

I hadn't contemplated the impact of enduring fear. That's awful for a parent to have that over a fully grown adult. I remember a close school friend with a very controlling and quite passive yet frightening father as a teen - he was also a school teacher and a churchy person. So typical upstanding in public type. She may even be on this chat i wouldn't be surprised as he was a master of control. But that only occurred to me in recent years. So I don't understand but I can imagine.
I don't have any fear of my parents. Or anyone really. If you're used to low emotional support you become quite resilient. But when the chips are really really down and your resilience is really low the kind of time a person with supportive family and friends rally around and pick you up.. that's when you notice it. So it's sadness really. I could have done with that support this year. Instead I had 'buy your own Easter eggs' and 'couldn't you have picked somewhere less windy'. And its funny and yet deeply upsetting in equal measure.
A couple of acquaintances of ours have had a sequence of low level stuff go wrong for them and their family over last 12 months. Nothing too awful but still challenging. There's been a daily account about it on Facebook. But they have a huge family support network and a stream of babysitters and seem to be financially supported too. And I'm not going to lie it really made me angry in a totally irrational way. And definitely jealousy and I'm not really a jealous person. I had to 'unfriend' them (they're neighbours/acquaintances rather than friends as such). Which is just the kind of thing my bitter dm would do. But it just hurt too much to read all the comments and see all the help and their dm posting amazing kind words (could all be untrue but don't think so...)...
When things are going well and you are busy and life is good the hurt recedes

Anyway said enough for one week... might need to name change and go back to lurking again!

Completely get the feelings of envy around those with “normal” loving families. The lack of care, interest and support is the thing I find hardest about all of this! Trained to please all the people who couldn’t give a monkeys about me… the irony!

We all deserve far better.

I've been grappling with this basically since the arrival of my son 2.5yrs ago. There's something about seeing things through the eyes of actually being a parent and realising that I could NEVER treat him the same way, so maybe it was wrong. Then the pandemic hit and I think I started to view things very differently. A lot of people I knew missed their families and couldn't wait to see them again, whereas it's made me rethink how I want to live my life, and what I want for my children. I started seeing a therapist, who has been brilliant. I think my story is probably not as bad as others in some ways, probably depressingly familiar in others. My dad was an alcoholic growing up, the whole house was a very angry and unhappy place to be. He liked to belittle and try to humiliate us when he had been drinking. I used to dread hearing his car pull into the driveway at night as I didn't know what would be walking in the door. The only time he was ever really sorry for any of it was when he was done for drink driving and lost his licence for a year. Nevermind that he'd been driving me and my brother (and friends) pissed for years. Who cares about that. I always had to be the one who said anything to him on behalf of my mum or brother, and my mum liked to tell anyone that would listen that she didn't see why she should leave him as she'd have to accept a lesser lifestyle. She used to "medicate" for stress and tell me and my brother it was because of our behaviour. I left when I was 17 and moved to the other end of the country, but I realise now that I never really left their grasp. I was still speaking to them all the time - always me who had to ring. Just so they could criticise me, tell me I wasn't doing things right, or share their frankly disgusting world views and opinions with me. I have to change things now because I am still like a teenager around them - angry all the time, try to assert myself but somehow never manage to do it in a way that they can hear. They can't accept any boundaries I put in place - like don't speak about my weight/body/what I'm wearing. I'm constantly told I'm too sensitive and that they can't say anything without me biting their heads off. And they are not wrong about that really, I am always angry around them. I've recently decided to lessen contact to 1 videochat per week just focused on DC, and trying to put off visits. I have a baby due in December and I haven't told them yet but we don't want them to visit for the first few weeks, and then only a couple of days. I'm dreading the fall out from it. Sorry this is so long, thank you and well done if you read this far!

@Backonceagainwiththe

"That and the grief from accepting and knowing there is no chance now of things changing."

I think I've been subconsciously pushing for this all my adult life. Maybe they will change, maybe we will have the type of relationship that others seem to have with their parents - it will never happen. My DH has such an easy relationship with his whole family, I couldn't understand it for years and actually thought they were weird. Now I realise that I've got it upside down. And it's so sad. You're right, it is a form of grief. But I can't keep trying to change them. They've shown over and over that they see zero issue with their behaviour, past or present. I think it's time for me to be an actual adult and parent and make the hard choices for us all. And I don't want to!