June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Backonceagainwiththe
Terrified what is gonna happen when one of my parents need care though as that is on the horizon in anything from now to 10 years. It will fall to me as they literally have no one else

You need to stop talking yourself into accepting a future that does not have to be yours. There is a reason why they have no one and that is not your fault. They have created that problem through their behaviour over their whole lives and it is not your fate to have to support them in old age. The more you create distance and boundaries now (or indeed no contact at all) the better. It may seem cold and harsh but you do NOT have to get involved if and when they need care.

@Justrealised It really does sound like it's them and not you. Why can you not believe your husband's assessment of you being the punchbag? Your mum sounds like she was emotionally as well as physically unavailable, whilst on the other hand using you as a confidante & secret keeper for things she absolutely shouldn't have been involving a child in, and generally neglecting your emotional wellbeing As an adult she now wants your attention whilst still not supporting you in your own life and especially the challenges with your child. It reads as she has no empathy and is just selfish. As a mother yourself now, can you ever imagine treating your children as your has mother treated you? I am guessing absolutely not. So what keeps her in your life - why are you afraid to cut contact? It won't be easy as she won't go down without a fight and try all the tactics but it can be done. Concentrate your energy, love and time on the people that deserve it - your husband and children and yourself.

@therealsmithfield If you haven't found it already BEAT, the eating disorders charity has lots of help. As I am sure you know, it's about anxiety and control not food so talking to her about what might be making her feel out of control will help (and yes I know getting teenagers to talk isn't easy!). Also try being open some of your own family issues - she can't be oblivious to the larger family dynamic and even just acknowledging those and what you are doing to cope may also help her to open up about what's worrying her. You being a bit vulnerable builds her trust so she can confide back in you.(DH needs a kick up bum to do this too)

@Gerwurtztraminer I hear ya! You make sense. I know I've been conditioned to be a people pleaser but I also like being a good person. And yes duty does make you resentful. But I don't think its a good example to set my children. Abandoning our old to suffer is not what we should do. I don't expect my dc to be at my beck and call but I do expect compassion and kindness from them. I've explained the dgp are being selfish and unkind so we aren't seeing them at the moment and they are sad but understand that. They know I'm not being unkind.
One thing that has struck me though is that a lot of old people are lonely isolated and vulnerable and people say their families are selfish etc...but I know think yeah but what were they like to those children when they were younger? My DB has lived overseas for 20 years. I think he has left to get away from this all including me. I can't ask him as he gets angry and defensive and i realised is actually LC with me.i hadn't even realised he was until I assessed his behaviour since I'd assessed my own. He couldn't give a f*ck bout my parents in old age he just assumes i will deal with it.

@Backonceagainwiththe I also have a DB who is NC with all of us . I know he is in a lot of pain . He is also a scapegoat like me.
Sibling relationships don’t stand a chance. Toxic parents will always divide and conquer.
I am the oldest by quite a bit and so I saw firsthand how shit the parenting was . None of us got any more love because they simply weren’t capable. Just different roles and not allowed to have independent relationships with each other.
Your Toxic mother probably fed your DB a version of you to meet her own needs.

@Gerwurtztraminer think you are spot on that dds issues with eating are around control
And have arisen from anxiety and stress. The pandemic affected her greatly. She is sporty and very sociable and the isolation coupled with having the access to her sports as an outlet has played a huge role.
I can’t put any of my issues on her currently as I just have to be there for her. She is only 13 and just needs me to be a mum right now.
Have had a serious chat with DH this morning and we have agreed certain ha it’s and patterns need to change.
I have serious issues with self image so I’m
Going to be a lot more mindful of what I say and how I behave with this.
I’ll certainly look up that charity - there’s a workshop I’m going to sign up for too.
I just want her to be ok 😞
Thank you for listening x

Just to add DD hates school so I think this has been a trigger. She was so happy at primary and now she is miserable

@therealsmithfield also consider autism as in girls it presents very differently and eating disorders and anxiety can be indicators. But also stress as you mention. Control is important.

@Backonceagainwiththe You are absolutely right I believe in the adage 'you reap what you sow' and being a parent means putting in the graft when children are younger. I do feel you can be a good compassionate person without dutifully sacrificing yourself and family to caring for parents who do not deserve it and won't be at all grateful. What sets a good example to your children is to keep them away from people who inflicted emotional damage on you. As for my family we didn't 'abandon' my mother in old age but the caring and support offered was limited and each of us had our boundaries (and yes I live abroad and rarely go back). If she was lonely and isolated that was a result of her own choices in life, not ours. I'm just concerned you made it sound like you were preparing to have to give up a happy life for your parents and it doesn't have to be that way.

@therealsmithfield Sounds like you understand your daughter well and she is lucky to have you. I'm certainly not suggesting you burden her with your adult cares at 13 but I'd just consider that she may be picking up on the issues you have with your own parents. Allowing her to talk about that if she wants to might be good as you can reassure her you are dealing with them the best you know how and are OK. Kids worry about their parents too!

@Gerwurtztraminer Your first paragraph sums up my situation and viewpoint absolutely perfectly. I deliberately live 17K miles away from my home country - and to be frank I'd really rather be there - because my mother still lives there and for the sake of my mental health I am very low contact with her. I've not actually seen her for 12 years and only talk to her approximately once a month.

Both my parents set a terrible example of parenthood. I'm the middle child and only daughter of 3, and none of us have had children of our own. My younger brother turned 50 this year so I highly doubt it's going to happen now. My mother cannot for the life of her understand why...

I witnessed 3 of my maternal uncles give up their whole lives to stay at home and look after my grandmother....they didn't need to, she was extremely wealthy and could have easily paid for live in help. She emotionally blackmailed them into staying...I was aware of how fucked up the whole dynamic was by the time I was 12, and I vowed then never to be put in that situation myself. My mother had a damn good try when I got divorced at 24 - I made the mistake of letting her live with me for a year, ended up having a nervous breakdown and trying to kill myself due to the stress she put on me. I left and came back to the UK, she followed and tried to get me to live with her again (she wasn't even mid 50s at this point). I refused, as I had just started a relationship and didn't want her interference...after 18 months she had the sense to go back to Oz, where she's far better off than she would be in the UK.

You reap what you sow is my favourite saying.

My DH has left his toxic dad to be the problem of his siblings in Oz and the opposite is true as my db has gone to Oz and left me responsible for parents. I can understand why you left and I had every chance to do the same and didn't. I didn't make that choice for my parents I have lived in Australia and I'm much happier here... but do I feel resentful that my db doesn't even appear thankful that I'm carrying his load ..yes... and I agree I don't have too and hes not asking me to. But I know he expects it and it is letting him off the guilt hook. He also does provide support to his wife's family including aged relatives. Although it is limited. He is a bit of a self centred twat anyway. His wife has him on a pedestal and he has no real responsibilities. He has a good job now but she supported him for his first 10 years in Australia while he pissed about. I'm sorry but it is total male privilege.
He always gets in touch (well his wife actually, he barely does) when its his son's birthday coming up. This year he directed me to a pair of trainers his son wanted!
For those of you overseas I do think you need to consider this. My DH doesn't always and I have to remind him that even though they're all low contact the burden of decisions and death preparations will fall to them (he is mid 80s). Some one has to.do that part. Dealing with authorities etc.

I'm not sacrificing my life or my mental health for anyone. As the only daughter, I know for a fact that my mother expected me to be the one who stayed with her... that was never going to happen. She in fact did not do it for her own mother, so you could say I've followed her example. She felt/feels zero guilt for leaving the 'responsibility' with her 3 brothers, in fact it is now over 20 years since her mother died and she still complains that the family home was left to just them.

My mother is 80 this year and still in full command of her mental faculties, she's fully computer literate etc. She lives in a HA flat that has a live in warden, she also gets cleaning help once a week, financed by the HA. My younger brother calls in regularly as well - unlike me, he is not bipolar and my mother does not emotionally blackmail him like she tries/tried with me as she knows it just rolls off him like water. I have already discussed what will happen when our mother dies and he is more than willing to deal with the logistics...what I could do from the UK would be limited anyway, especially as Australia is more or less completely closed to the rest of the world at the moment and looks unlikely to open up again for at least another year.

Sounds like those have gone completely NC have been able to because there is someone else around to pick up the slack of elderly parents or a wider extended family. If I had the same I doubt the level of manipulation I've been under would have been anywhere near as great- its been concentrated. While I understand the need to NC or LC for your mental health its a bit disingenuous to recommend the same to others when the situations are different. I will only ever be able to achieve LC. Which is what it is now. My DH has successfully (although not guilt free) done exactly as you have. The situations are identical (except its a DF rather than DM). His guilt is to his siblings not father, but he was the one carrying the can in Australia for years before he left and DF is fairly evil not just a little bit. But his other 2 siblings do as you describe your brother does. So yes at some point however minimum it is, People like me and them will be expected to do some things for parents. Even if it's just arrange a funeral. My DB has never had a conversation with me about that. He seems in denial our parents are even old. As I said. Male privilege. Some responsibilities in life cannot be escaped.

Can't they, though? I've been wondering about this myself. There is no other family that would step up, and there's a credible risk to my safety and wellbeing if I get involved with them again - as mentioned upthread, toxic mum is physically abusive. While I hate to palm them off onto social services, what would happen if I just... don't step up and do elder care? Anything? I don't think I'm legally or morally obligated. I don't think anyone who was abused by their parents is, or should be.

@noirchatsdeux you do indeed reap what you sow - well done at not letting the living arrangement persist. Also, good to see another childfree/childless stately homer (I know it's mumsnet but I hear we're allowed as long as we behave and don't lecture the parents). I did want kids originally but both my marriages failed, I have a few health issues I don't want to pass on and tbh it is one way to ensure, 100%, that the bad family dynamic ends with me. I hope I can still contribute to society and leave a legacy of some kind, even if it isn't mini-mes.

Male privilege? My DH feels huge FOG and it keeps us well and truly chained to his parents. He has a DB who went NC and only lives 30mins away. I’m sure he will appear for the reading of the will.
Everyone’s circumstances differ . If for one minute I felt DHs mental health was impacted by them I would get him the hell out by hook or by crook.
Nothing is black and white . DH has certainly got much stronger boundaries than when we first came to live here.
Do whatever you can live with and what suits you whilst protecting your immediate family unit and your own mental well being.
I can certainly understand having anger if I felt forced to sacrifice my own well being by being the only child available to carry out certain duties especially to a TM.
Only you as an individual can know what the trade off is and if contact/ LC / NC is worth that trade off.
If the price is too high to you, work on extricating yourself. No one should accept abuse in their life.

There are definitely lots of men who support parents, but they are the minority and I say that as someone who has worked in this area. Usually if there's a daughter then they pick up the role. Male privilege is a term. Or you could call it social norms. Society is slow to change.
With regards to do you have to step up and do anything. The answer is no especially if you are not local. But if you are the only next of kin then yes you do have responsibilities. Presumably you can refuse them but if you are named in a will or as next of kin and there is no Will then again this will come knocking on your door. My DH is very likely to not be in his DF will because he's a vindictive twat. His DF managed to get him cut out of his uncles will (he had no dependents and left money to his sibs and dad). He did this so he himself could have a bigger cut. The money was irrelevant to the hurt as had done nothing except move overseas. It was pure greed on part of DF who is himself an old man. Money from Wills is just something to forget imo it just seems in so many ways another thing to get at people and to p*ss people off from beyond the grave. I've never had a penny from my parents and I don't expect that to change so don't count on it. Massively annoying though when you know people in their 40s and 50s moaning about their financial situations when you know mummy and daddy gonna die in the next 10 years and they'll inherit a big chunk. Used to have baby group friend who constantly pleaded poverty never bought a coffee, kids in hand me downs. Inherited a big chunk from Granny (didnt even know she had a wealthy granny assumed grandparents not alive). Inheritance meant they could upgrade to huge 4 bed detached house... Still didn't buy a coffee though (another example of my poor boundaries!).

Hi everyone,

I'm a bit of a long time lurker and name changed, I just feel like I need to offload to people who get it!

I saw the light on my relationship with my TM a few years ago and it's been a difficult journey since, but I feel like I'm in a relatively good place in terms of level of contact and setting boundaries. I struggle with anger and resentment about my childhood particularly after some upsetting episodes more recently where I have been strong, tried to set a boundary and it has resulted in gaslighting that's really shaken me up.

I live a distance away from my family which I'm grateful for and have never really had a particularly close relationship with DB who lives where we grew up. Recently it's become apparent that he is in a relationship with a woman who is pretty much textbook narcissist, and to make things worse they're expecting a baby (supposedly unplanned). TM has never liked her and at first I gave her the benefit of the doubt, but I've seen some of the messages she's sent him and it's pretty clear she's emotionally abusing him. Ironically even TM suggested to him that his GF is a narc...

I just feel so helpless seeing him trapped in this situation and angry at TM because I feel like this is a situation of her making, controlling her family and then being outraged when her own son ends up controlled. I've been trying to help where I can by explaining to him that his GF will never change, he'd be better off without her and growing up in an environment with dysfunctional parents is far worse than having parents who are separated, but when I do get involved I feel myself basically telling him what to do and I'm scared that I'm falling into the same controlling habits as TM.

I'm not sure what answers I'm looking for I just don't know how to support him, TM is emotionally useless and DF just buries his head in the sand (very much an enabler). I feel guilt for seeing my family situation for what it is, as though I could have rescued DB from what feel like to me a future completely pre-determined by how they treated us growing up. I'm just fortunate that I was given the opportunity to fly the nest.

Hi @seethecolours so is your DB sharing these text messages with you ?
It sounds like you are getting pulled back into the family via your DB. If this information is coming via your TM I’d be really wary.
My TM really manipulated me quite recently by drawing me in via a sibling ‘needing’ me.
What happened that shook you up recently ? Can you tell us a little more? Only if you feel you can of course x

I don’t really want to go into the thing that shook me up, it was basically just an example of really explicit gaslighting that I hadn’t experienced before.

Some of the info is coming via TM and I am very wary of that, but when I have seen DB in person he’s clearly been very upset and showed me some of the things his GF has sent him. It’s the classic emotional manipulation, he bends over backwards for her, she’s awful to him, he then tries to make space and ignore her and then she turns on the guilt. I don’t really feel like it’s TM that’s trying to drag me back, it’s really seeing how she’s dealing with it and wanting to step in an try and provide proper support. She’s already stepped in previously and made matters worse. I suppose in a way I feel like because TM never provided emotional support for me growing up I feel an obligation to make sure someone is there for DB.

@seethecolours it’s so difficult isn’t it. So easy to get sucked back into a role that’s been set up for us. I’ve always been the fixer , rescuer as well as scapegoat.
All I would say is be mindful of what role you have played in the past and stay in the here and now if you can. Just being his sister will be enough. Be his Sounding board . You can’t be his rescuer though.

Any of you who have been cast in scapegoat role by your toxic family feel like you are constantly self sabotaging or teetering on the verge of doing so?
I feel like I may be so adept at it that I have no idea what is going on or that I’m doing it!??

Not sure it's completely a 'scapegoat' but definitely I have a defined role in my family and they have a view of me and that's not correct at all. They don't have any interest in actually knowing me. For what it's worth I don't think they know themselves either. Not sure that's particularly uncommon for their social class and era. They are quite closed minded in general. They don't like to keep an open mind or discuss the possibility that things may not be as they seem in many things. I think their view of me (as difficult) is just another example of that.
But they have fed my brother a narrative about me. His wife thinks I am difficult and they treat me a little bit with contempt but as I said earlier they seem to be LC with me

What they do though is antagonise me (all extremely passive aggressive where as I am not at all). Then when I kick off they go 'yep told you she was difficult'
This is where my boundary setting has come in.
To be honest I have for many years thought I am difficult.

Completely understand this point of view. I am cast as the “fixer” by my family, relentlessly called upon for all sorts, though I am never offered any help or support. DH is cast ask scapegoat by his family and neither side are interested in getting to know us at all. They have their view of how we are and stick to it, they never ask about us or take an interest, make their own assumptions about what happens and why. We are LC with both sides which of course only enforces their stories about us “see, they’re not interested in the family” when really it’s self-preservation on our part.

Think this will be familiar to so many of us

Hi @Notmenottoday I really relate to your post. Yes I am sure my TF are rolling their eyes . Oh yes Smithfield is back on one again . They will twist whatever we do to suit their requirements so may as well please ourselves .

@Backonceagainwiththewiththe. yep. I had that a lot from TM she would push the buttons so I could be some the receptacle of her own anger. Then she would step back and so I told you ‘Smithfield was mad, bad , aggressive’ insert whatever descriptor suited her. Do yes heavy gaslighting.

She tries to gaslight now but I’m too LC to have same impact or result . I’m sure that drives her insane. However I am still dealing with leftovers.

Low self esteem ( at times this improves but overall remains low)
Low self care
Sabotage of jobs / relationships ( again this has improved vastly but remains an issue in that I have fear of succeeding)
Need to not make mistakes and appear perfect
High level of shame if not perfect or fuck something up
Scapegoating DH to avoid the shame of the above 😞
People pleasing ( including own DC, friends and work colleagues)

I manage to appear normal (whatever that is) on the outside but this is what is going on inside of me on a constant loop. No wonder I have constant anxiety.

Would be good to know if anyone has successfully tackled any of this or currently processing.

Sorry about the typos - on my phone and going a bit elderly long sighted 😊

@Notmenottoday…. Yep always called upon to ‘help’ them… relate to this too so much… no one gives one or has ever actually asked ‘ how are YOU doing’ - same cycle and pattern of this in some friendships as I mentioned. They just want mad need you back in play as quickly as possible.

Exactly as @Backonceagainwiththe said, you get the “I told you she’s…” and as @therealsmithfield said they NEVER ask how you are or what is going on in your life, you are there only to serve their needs and interests. Regardless what you do they will have their own narrative so why bother indeed. This has helped me massively with LC.

I also identify with the majority of your list!
I definitely suffer with:
Low self esteem (thought trying hard on this one)
Low self care
Need to not make mistakes and appear perfect
High level of shame if not perfect or fuck something up
People pleasing (though again trying hard with this one and trying to recognise “friendships” which replicate the family scenarios - where I am the fixer for them also and they get a lot out of the relationship where I get, well, not an awful lot)

Like you, I (think) I appear “normal” but inside I am exhausted and all these issues play on repeat, I’d love to get past it but I wonder if I’ll just have to learn to live with it while I try to improve a little along the way.

Something I have realised recently is I absolutely hate being asked “why?” I never realised until an incident just recently. I hate it, I hate having to explain myself and the demand of those asking the question. Usually it centres around me not wanting to do something the constant “why?” No is a complete sentence, why poke and quiz. I realise also I never asked anyone this. I usually say “ok” or “‘maybe next time” I don’t get the entitlement of people demanding you explain anything. Usually the people asking are quite pushy. It certainly pushes my buttons