June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@therealsmithfield it’s laughable, isn’t it? They are Masters of Guilt and then can’t believe that it stops working.,

I just have to laugh at her. She’s unintentionally hilarious. You couldn’t make her up.

You look after yourself.

I’ll be checking the taxi tomorrow to see if The Hag has secreted herself in the boot. Lol

@AttilaTheMeerkat well well guess what the flying monkey flew straight back to mumma didn’t even bother replying to me . Not even an enjoy your trip Smithfield!
Text from TM first thing this morning. Language says it all ‘ Smithfield I NEED to hear from you’
I was so busy with work I forgot but have now blocked her on phone and WhatsApp so I can enjoy my precious time with my DD
Am so upset by it all I really am . Upset and angry at being so naive that I thought I had any semblance of a separate relationship with dsis.
That’s not allowed 🚫 in this family. Never has been and never will be.

EXCELLENT ARTICLE:

20 Diversion Tactics Highly Manipulative Narcissists, Sociopaths And Psychopaths Use To Silence You

A deep dive into understanding the narcissistic sociopath, psychopath, and other anti-social personalities.

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

@Sicario thank you for sharing this article. I'll go back to it later and give it a more in depth read, but I can recognise my Dad in every single one of those techniques.

I’ve got this right now.

If I don’t “toe the line” I’m the scape goat. Whenever I visit my mother and stepfather I feel like shit due to my stepfather’s treatment of me. To everyone else he’s the perfect person.

I wish sometimes I could end my life as I don’t have a relationship but do have a couple of close friends. But I do have a job.

@MonkeyfromManchester Hello! I'm also in Manchester!

Yep, of course all my mother cared about my being diagnosed as bipolar was that it made her look like a less than perfect parent...I've realised as an adult she (and my father) never actually wanted children in the first place - we were routinely referred to as 'mistakes' - but once we were here we existed to make her look 'perfect' to others, particularly her family of origin...once we were 17K miles away from her family all pretence at being Earth Mother of the Millennium stopped...

Myself and my two brothers were actively discouraged from having friends, hobbies, attending social events...my parents never interacted with our schooling at all...this was back in the late 70s/early 80s so the level of communication between parents and schools was far less than it is now.

My younger brother had a bad fall and hit his head during a PE lesson when he was 14...there was no automatic trip to hospital, he was asked if he wanted our mother ringing to come get him - my brother knew my mother would throw a fit at being bothered, so said no and made his own way home. Didn't tell my mother it had happened. 7 years later, he's got a huge hard lump growing on his forehead, has it x-rayed and it turns out he's been going around with a skull fracture that has healed badly...he's now 50 and still has the lump as it's considered cosmetic surgery in Oz and he can't afford the operation.

That's how unapproachable and disinterested my mother was. My father was so disinterested in being a parent he spent most of my childhood working abroad. When he finally left my mother for OW when I was 21 I barely knew him...

@Gonnagetgoing, they make us feel shit about ourselves to make themselves better.

I have also felt so low I didn't want to carry on at times, so I understand a little where you are coming from, but you are worthy and valued and loved JUST AS YOU ARE.

I still have my wobbles but what really helped me was starting to learn to love myself - sounds icky I know, but for example, imagining what I would say if it were a close friend, rather than myself. I think we are so so hard on ourselves and it takes time to understand that we DESERVE happiness too.

The measure I use now is this, if I come away from a social interaction feeling drained/negative/generally shit about myself etc, that is a relationship I NEED to withdraw from. If your stepfather makes you feel so bad, stop seeing him. Is that at all possible for you?

@MonkeyfromManchester - Love the updates, MM is dealing with The Hag so well! Enjoy the blissful Hag-free holiday!

@therealsmithfield - ugh, flying monkeys. what a disappointment. I'm so sorry. I had to google what flying monkey meant - and ding ding ding, we have a winner, it is EXACTLY what my sis is like. I flit between hating her with every fibre of my being and pitying her as she has been manipulated by my mum to be that way. I hope you get some lovely quality time with your DD.

@noirchatsdeux - that's just...I don't know, i'm speechless. To have just left a head injury as he already knew his parents wouldn't be bothered. I am so sorry that was your childhood. You both deserved so much better.

lalalaand Thing is we have lots of family gatherings so a bit hard not to attend.

My mother and brother want me to just get along so I just try to avoid him (stepfather) but it’s hard if I visit. My mum doesn’t like going out so much now due to the pandemic as she has severe health issues.

I hear you, it's hard. Wanting to end your life though really shows that something needs to change. Is it possible for you to insist your stepfather isn't there when you visit? I know your mum and brother want you to just get along, but your feelings/needs are important too.

@Sicario - GREAT article, thanks so much for sharing. 'Word salad' perfectly sums up the last few 'conversations' I've had with my mum.

@noirchatsdeux what you’ve written is so sad - disinterested parenting is code for neglect. It’s hard to give things a label like that as I think people with crap family always feel ‘other people have it much worse’. We have to own our truths (big conversation with Mr Monkey yesterday about it). Does the bipolar get triggered by family stress? Mine has been pretty bad the last two years because of The Hag. Gotta love Manchester!

@laalaaland poshest hotel ever. She wasn’t on the train - and she’s not telephoned. Joy. Your wisdom on self-worth and compassion for ourselves. YES.

@Gonnagetgoing we’re here for you. You have found your gang of warm and good women who totally 100% get toxic families.

@Sicario that article is FANTASTIC.

I landed at the hotel yesterday and had a fantastic lunch with Mr Monkey chatting about the Hag. He does a lot of thinking to process things. He’s really got a grip on all things Hag. He sees the patterns and was explaining how he now stands up to her and cuts the toxicity short, particularly on the phone.. Lots of pennies dropping about her possessiveness and triangulation and jealousies. I can see it’s really hard as it’s bringing loads of stuff up from his dreadful childhood, but he’s determined to keep going. I’m so proud of him. It’s been exhausting, but worth it.

Hello all.. Long time member and lurker but had a delete of my account a while ago as lots of revealing info... been lurking ever since. Had some great advice earlier this year.

Just wanted to ask... when you put in Boundaries for the first time in your life... (wow is that hard...and revealing) what do you do when you suddenly find yourself completely friendless and realise your parents and very elderly grandmother have been using you all of the last 40 years!?! As well as the majority of 'friends'. Been so very very hard and lonely. Also have an Autistic partner and son so its doubly bad. My mum and dad (narcissist and enabler) were emotionally absent and draining but they did mean I wasn't completely alone i could call them. But they're very low contact with me since the 'boundaries' discussion where I explained it was unfair on me to be expected to be organiser and fun maker for the family as I'm exhausted with a high needs child... after much flouncing they are now for last 5 minths sending very brief texts.... asking how are you? But when I reply (grey rock/factually) literally not replying again for 3 weeks.
They've not asked after the kids despite 1 having some milestone moments...yet they accused me months ago of keeping the kids from them!?!

My DMs very very ancient mother, my DGM is also the same and I can now see that she is just as bad as my DM! My DM has always said this ... but previously I'd thought she was lovely and have a lifetime of sticking up for her against my DM which now seems like my whole life has been a lie and mistake... my DM hates me for this too!
I need counselling but the last 3 have ended after a few sessions as terrible.. I've literally had 3 false starts to counselling and now feel unable to get anyone decent!!

Its a very lonely and friendless bank hol and with a SEN child it feels impossible to do.anything about this. I'm burnt out from people pleasing and have no energy to make friends anymore! (I dont have any due to SEN child/poor boundaries/ bad choices)...

@Backonceagainwiththe - it's hard but does get easier. It was similar for me that I had quite a shift in my oldest friendship group shortly ish after setting boundaries and going NC with my family. I sobbed all the way home on a 3 hour drive when I could finally see how little these 'friends' cared about me. I think once I'd decided to stop putting up with my family treating me like shit, I was much better able to see how other relationships I'd formed mirrored similar toxic patterns. With the friends, I have just stopped putting in the effort and let things drift, no drama.

I think my advice would be to give yourself a bit of time and kindness. You are obviously completely drained, take time to build yourself back up a bit. Now you have put boundaries in place (WELL DONE!) you will be less emotionally drained in future and will have more time to build new relationships, from a healthier start.
Maybe trying to connect with similar families could be a start.....Are there any local support groups for parents with children who have SEN? Is there a group online, like on Facebook maybe?

Thanks. I do access lots of groups but they're just people with problems like me and its all about the kids. After 5 years of fighting schooletc its a lot of my life and sick of it. I don't want more of that. I haven't made connections as it's all about the kids and no one has childcare. I miss fun times with people. I need to start totally all over but its hard when you are drained and the wrong side of 40!
You are right though..I have put up with poor friendships. So used to being the 'organiser' I hadn't realised friends expected this too but never reciprocated it. Its been a slow eye opener. I stopped doing it and everyone drifted away. Makes me very sad. My partner has expected me to do this too and has been like a child for years and so been setting boundaries on the home front too. Everyone thinks I am a difficult cow and had 'menopause' thrown at me. Its felt like cutting off my nose to spite my face. Please tell me this is worth it and it gets better?

Hello @Backonceagainwiththe really relate to your post and can’t really offer much advice at the minute as I am in a similar spot currently.

Had a friendship well a couple actually that were draining me and I only realised when I had struggles myself that I was replicating the same dance from my toxic family.

It is sad but your own sanity is important . It sounds really tough what you’ve got going at home as well and nurturing yourself is so important.

Is there any hobbies you have that will give you a break from home life and thoughts about the Toxic family dysfunction.

Anything that will take you outside of your head and allow you to breathe ? Could be a new way of connecting also? Connecting with yourself first is paramount IMHO otherwise you can’t know what you really want or need in a friendship.

Just got back from a lovely few days break. Despite shaving a wonderful time I have found certain aspects a major struggle.
Dsis text literally later in the day ( same day TM text me ) so once id blocked TM of course , to ask where was I going? Clearly prompted by TM. So so angry it felt palpable. The following morning I woke up consumed with anxiety.
I also noticed how triggered I felt by DD during the trip . She is just being a typical teen and normal in that respect but the constant negating of whatever I say just reminds me of being around TM. The familiarity of every word or thought I have or share being dismissed . I was trying hard not to be sensitive or show the hurt and pain it was bringing up.
I am also convinced now DD has the beginnings of an eating disorder. She controls what she eats and is constantly saying she is full, not hungry. I have to tread carefully with this now as I don’t want to jump in feet first and make things worse but I can’t ignore it either. Feel really alone with it as I’ve mentioned to DH and he buries his head about it .
It’s such a juggle and a constant worry to me all the time is that I have somehow damaged my kids.
I’m speaking to a counsellor on Tuesday (for me not dd) and I just hope to goodness they feel / seem like someone I can work with for now.
There are moments recently that I feel like my life is just imploding around me. I need to steady the boat.

Thanks for the words. Hope it works for you too.

Yes I need to do this. Been one of lives go getters and always give things a go and try to get out there, but I've ground to a hault. The Boundaries thing has been so illuminating but also crushing. I just can't be arsed with anyone right now! They're all a massive let down.

@therealsmithfield

Just got back from a lovely few days break. Despite shaving a wonderful time I have found certain aspects a major struggle. Dsis text literally later in the day ( same day TM text me ) so once id blocked TM of course , to ask where was I going? Clearly prompted by TM. So so angry it felt palpable. The following morning I woke up consumed with anxiety. I also noticed how triggered I felt by DD during the trip . She is just being a typical teen and normal in that respect but the constant negating of whatever I say just reminds me of being around TM. The familiarity of every word or thought I have or share being dismissed . I was trying hard not to be sensitive or show the hurt and pain it was bringing up. I am also convinced now DD has the beginnings of an eating disorder. She controls what she eats and is constantly saying she is full, not hungry. I have to tread carefully with this now as I don’t want to jump in feet first and make things worse but I can’t ignore it either. Feel really alone with it as I’ve mentioned to DH and he buries his head about it . It’s such a juggle and a constant worry to me all the time is that I have somehow damaged my kids. I’m speaking to a counsellor on Tuesday (for me not dd) and I just hope to goodness they feel / seem like someone I can work with for now. There are moments recently that I feel like my life is just imploding around me. I need to steady the boat.

The replicating your parent i can relate to. I'm sure the fact you are so aware means you aren't.

Thanks @Backonceagainwiththe it’s so exhausting isn’t it ! The hyper- vigilance . We can’t be perfect either and that’s the catch . They have us running in circles thinking we should be. Life is messy.

You will be back to go getting in no time . Back stronger , healthier and more self aware. A little time out is will work wonders .

We can have some time out together if you like 👍🏻

Hi everyone, I hope it's ok for me to post please?

Since having my children my relationship with my family has been terrible. I really struggle with my relationship with my mum. I've tried but don't know how to make it better, I'm not sure I can. She wasn't really around much when I was growing up and when she was it was weird (she introduced me to the man she was cheating on my dad with and made me keep it a secret, she said it was ok as her mother had done the same to her, other things also) as an adult shes told me she has cancer when she didnt, she slipped up and said it when my brother could hear and he pulled her for it. Shes also done things like tell my mother in law she loves my brother more, openly in that language. She gives my brother money too and says she's going to do the same for us but never does.
My youngest has disabilities and we've been through the mill with the LA but she brushes this off and just says I can cope when I tall about it. I'm scared of reducing contact with her. I've tried before and she told me that she was broken and so I'll she couldnt speak, she sent me a missing person letter in the post like I was gone... have you seen my daughter....my husband said it read like an obituary.

My niece has stopped talking to me because she says I'm cruel to my mum. My brother has limited contact with my mum also. My mum says my niece is a daughter to her and I'm jealous of their relationship. I guess the truth is I am a little, they have a completely different dynamic which is more mother/daughter than what we have. My nieces mum hasn't been involved in her life since she was around 14. My mum looks after her daughter but not our children and says my niece is more like her and not difficult like I am. My niece is explosive and causes problems but is always forgiven.

Do any of you ever question if it is you that is at fault? I'm wondering if it is me, should I be more sympathetic to my niece and less difficult? My husband says I'm the punch bag for the family. I know what I'm saying isn't what this thread is for, I guess I'm just looking for feedback as to if I should be looking at myself rather than them if that makes sense. How do you know?

@Justrealised listen to your husband. Your mother does not sound right.
If I or another poster had written this what would you say?
I think it’s normal to think the problem Is you but that’s the programming and the black and white thinking. On child good another bad etc.
It’s really insidious and creates massive low self esteem issues.
Posting on here is a first step to extricating yourself from their warped view of you for sure. You need ways of countering the inner voice your mum has installed in you. Can you create some distance at least? Read around toxicity, and get some counselling if you can?

@Justrealised I can relate to what you are saying a lot. There's a 'difficult person' narrative about me too. My brother scapegoats me too. Its really unfair. I have ok self esteem but it dents easily. I struggle to make friends as never had any good feedback or role models. I've had enough counselling to know this but not enough to fix it so I no longer care!
My DH has a similar situation with their dad and step mum being LC and having a 'golden sibling'.
(We don't have any family contact on DH side either as they are toxic and live overseas). Because they are overseas we can see it for what it is.
It is quite clear that your niece is in a bad place and your dm is exploiting that she won't be conscious of that. She is being used. She knows you see through her. I've seen this a lot. My DGM has always had friends who have e fulfilled doting daughter roles. Because my DM doesn't.
What bugs me is why if my DM has been treated badly herself she chose not to break the cycle with me. She hadn't and is nearing the end of her life realistically it isn't gonna change. I can only break this cycle with my DC. Its hard though.
Your DN needs to see this for herself. Losing her own mum will make this difficult as she will be happy to get any crumbs she can. She will not be developed emotionally and vulnerable.

Typing this is helping me a lot actually. If I think I am doing this for my dc then it makes it easier.
Terrified what is gonna happen when one of my parents need care though as that is on the horizon in anything from now to 10 years. It will fall to me as they literally have no one else. No family or friends. They are pretty much friendless and no family as said. Family was small anyway. Weve never been involved with extended family.
We used to survive with no family except them.as had a Big and varied friendship group but those friends were just for the good times. Most people with SEN kids can relate to it testing friendships. Weve lost pretty much every one and no family to fall back on. We don't even have someone to watch the kids in an emergency right now. This is what I need to fix but there is no.quick fix. I'm so proud though as one family - our dds are friends. But I could see they were angling for childcare and for our dd to support their dd with some things. And I put a stop to it rather than jumping in and helping. My dd has had enough of being a carer. So really not gonna keep repeating my patterns of give give give and no getting back. I've been a magnet for that. Also called long running but don't see very often friends out on something similar (asking us to have their kids for a day under pretence of really wanting kids to get together). 3rd time. Said no not fair... would rather just all meet up as we need a day out....haven't heard from them since! Said of course they'd have ours anytime but haven't even had a how you doing text since and that was 10 weeks ago!
Boundaries are exhausting!

I think generally pandemic really put things in to perspective. I stopped being in a tile with a couple of friends suddenly . I was the fixer, nurturer organiser. When I then got sucked back in to those roles with my own toxic family as well that’s when I realised I was on the precipice of a breakdown .
Throughout all of this my own DC needed me the most. I have a full on pressured job which I worked throughout.
I realised I needed to protect myself for the sake of the DC.
These friends only want me back on their terms and keep trying to pull me back in. Toxic family the same. I think my TM got a taste of successfully pulling me back into the drama and wants more. Like a shark with a taste for the blood.
Interestingly my TM has also become very close to my niece and her children. She was never interested one iota when her dsis ( also the scapegoat) was still alive. My aunt had a horrible life, alcohol , domestic abuse.
The damage that is done should never be underestimated.
That’s why TM fishes for info so she can pretend with my niece what a great mumma she is . My niece is welcome to the nasty cow. I wish they would crack on and leave me alone quite frankly 😁

Agree @Backonceagainwiththe boundaries are exhausting because not naturally installed . I have low self esteem from constantly people pleasing . This is what a NM wants , a daughter to forgo her own needs to keep narc happy.
This is what I want to work on in counselling now. I want to have the sense of self to rediscover and listen to my instincts.
Your instincts will never leave you! We just need to learn to listen and trust them!

@therealsmithfield sounds like we are in similar place. Yep pandemic created a massive full stop and things aren't going back to how they were relationship wise for sure!