June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@@Mummyoply In terms of cancelling the meeting, would it be easier to look at this in a different way. You want your parents to "just be 'normal' for want of a better word". You want to give them an ultimatum to change their behaviour or .. what? You cut off contact? So can I (somewhat provocatively) suggest you are being unfair and unreasonable to expect them to change.

Because they aren't normal and never can be can they? Look again at what you wrote ..... they were crying and hysterical simply because your son was not with you . Your father lay in front of the wheels of your car. Even you know that is so far beyond any definition of normal parental behaviour!

You have to ask yourself why do you think they can still turn it around - what evidence do you have for that? Why do you think it's down to ignorance and laziness? Even if it is, why do you still have hope they are willing to be educated and active - have they ever given you a reason to think this is possible? Because I sadly suspect this is your futile wish for something unattainable, not based on any real foundation to build hope on.

Why would they seek counselling if they don't think they have done anything wrong. Even if they did, their 'story' is different to yours - they will ask a therapist for help to deal with an ungrateful,unkind daughter who treats them so badly and cuts off access to their beloved grandchild. Or are you simply hoping a therapist waves a magic wand and 'fix' them? So any ultimatum or final chance you may deliver this weekend is setting them up to fail anyway. From this perspective, it's actually being cruel to be kind to simply cut contact now.

If you really feel this meeting cannot be cancelled, I'd use it to tell them you are not going to see them again. Keep it short and decisive. Leave quickly - do not hang around when they get hysterical. Be clear it's a final decision with no right of appeal. Your reasons are yours, it's not a punishment for their behaviour just an inevitability due to the kind of people they are. Walk away and don't look back. If you father chucks himself under the car again, tell him to stop being ridiculous and get up. Or get a taxi home and come back to pick up the car later.

I'm not sure that works for you or helps at all but it's just a way to try and look at the whole thing in a different way. As for the wider family, not everyone will understand and some may well judge or try to interfere. You will probably be put under pressure to resume contact. If you go into it expecting that reaction, it will make it easier to resist as you will have to NC some of them too, if they cannot stay out of it. I think you need to ask yourself, what you afraid of in terms of the wider family, and think through what is the worst that could happen. It rarely turns out that bad.

Most importantly, what is the best choice for you, your husband and your son? I think you have already made that decision,you are just (understandably) scared to implement it.

@MonkeyfromManchester Sorry you are feeling low and Hag is changing tactics. Bury the phone in the freezer! Can I ask, why did you call BiL and deliver the message? Not a criticism, just wondering why you felt you could not ignore her demand.

Take care.

@Gerwurtztraminer thank you! Best name on MN!

Yes, I know what you mean. I think we all know what she wants, although sometimes we have to unlock what she’s really wanting as the manipulation is so thorough / bizarre.

On reflection, yesterday was definitely about her wanting me to ring BIL because he’d not answered the phone and I was dragged into the game - accessory to the crime!

Yesterday morning it was the lesser evil than reading the number out to her. That would have been a testy waste of time. I did suggest it and then thought ‘WTAF am I doing? It will mean 10 minutes on the phone ruining my morning’. What struck me is how now I have no small talk for her and I’m so angry whenever I speak to her. And yes, you’re soooo right, she’s getting what she wants. Whoever said Narcs are stuck at age six is bang on. It’s like dealing with a child who won’t be reasoned with.

But later on when Mr Monkey was having a conversation with her, he brought up her phone call to me.
‘I couldn’t find my phone book’ (the numbers are all in her phone)
Then five minutes later she rang back. She’d found the phone book.

Hmmmmm…I doubt it was ever lost now.

How the hell BIL puts up with her shit day in, day out I have no idea. His life is ruined.

I’m so glad I stood my ground across 2020/2021 and have not acquiesced to her control (for the most part). It’s been exhausting but so worth it. I’m really glad that Mr Monkey has now seen her in a true light.

This page is a lifeline to me.

@Gerwurtztraminer thank you, that was very useful advice. I feel a bit stuck I guess. I am worried that if I cancel the meeting or cut contact my dad will hurt himself. Now he has told me that he has suicidal ideation I am worried that if I cut contact he will do something to himself and that will ruin my life and my child's life. I can't live with that guilt for the rest of my life. This is something I may tell him when we meet, this is also why I have told him to get counselling. To help him with these thoughts, not really to change him but he obviously needs mental health support. He had a very difficult childhood himself and could benefit from taking about it with someone.

You are not responsible for the actions of another person. Abusive people often use the threat of killing or otherwise harming themselves in a further attempt to bring the person they want to control (in this case you) back into line. Your dad is doing this to otherwise control you and bring you back into their dysfunctional fold.

He won't get counselling end of so your plea for him to do so will fall on deaf ears. He does not have either the inclination or insight to do so; he does this to you because he can and it works for him. Same with your mother; it works for her too. They learnt how to abuse from their families who in all likelihood treated them abusively. They had a choice when it came to you and merely continued to dish out what was dished out to them as children. They never sought, nor wanted to seek, the necessary help.

Please do not subject yourself any longer to your abusive parents by walking into that lion's den. Your wanting to help them is because of you feeling so obligated. It will backfire on you big time and you really do need to address your FOG properly with a BACP registered therapist (certainly not the person you previously spoke to who advised you to give your mother a hug!!).

@MonkeyfromManchester - Other wine varieties are available..(and drunk!) but this is currently the favoured 'house wine'.

Re the Hag, what's interesting is that you are not yet at the point you just say "I'm not reading the number out to you and just find the phonebook" and hang up. I know that's hard - I spent years pandering before getting tougher and learning the art of the hang up.

This thread has made me see I spent years of my life subconsciously doing grey rock/ LC/NC I just didn't have the language for it then. Mum's gone now but she was definitely stuck in child mode. Moving away and decent physical distance from family from age 20 helped me a lot.

Poor BiL. But I guess he's made his choices too. Good for you for getting tough and being such a great support for your DH. It sounds like you seriously 'saved' him.

@Gerwurtztraminer it’s a good one! I’m on the wagon until August Bank Holiday. I will put that on the wine order.

I know what you mean about physical distance. MM only managed it for a year, BIL never has, but Bastard Golden Boy Brother in law worked overseas and totally escaped. I wonder why he made that choice. He’s a complete abusive Narc as well.

Despite his abuse of his wife and abandonment of his kids (none of us including the Hag have heard from him for five years), the Hag still thinks of him as Golden Boy. He’d recently got in touch with one of his teenage sons (he’s SN and more malleable, the other son won’t have anything to do with him) saying he’d help him find a job. Obviously, nothing more was heard.
Hag: he’s probably still busy looking for him.
FFS.

This is the Narc son who does exactly what she does, gives his sons (well, DID) extraordinary sums of £ rather than love and presence,

I think I’m not at the stage of the hangup yet, but I’m doing really well on the journey.. everything is now passed to DP and BIL. The last vestiges of contact - taking her to the hairdresser - is now over. It’s been EXHAUSTING to put this all in place.

I look at everything she’s put us through - living here, demanding to come here every day, wanting to ‘accompany’ us to my mum’s for six days, the screaming, the spite - it’s only me being so tough that has avoided a complete takeover. If not for me, MM’s life would be a replica of his brother’s.

It only really dawned on me recently the extent to which she was lining us up to replace BIL. Her constant mentions of his disability (he’s really independent and manages pretty well), her trying to come here before/after medical appointments was based on her realisation that she couldn’t sit in his house every day because she was no longer able to climb the stairs and we were the shoe-in.

Her Narcs R Us entitlement is extraordinary.

@Mummyoply - you asked about the wider family repercussions of going NC. In my case, I am now NC with my whole family of origin. DM was always difficult and was highly abusive to me when I was a kid. My 3 siblings clearly learned that I was the family punchbag. (Which I later learned was called being the "scapegoat")

My sister - a good few years younger than me - is a covert narc nightmare and has caused endless ructions and dramas which were inevitably blamed on me. Her regular habit was to create a drama, blame me for it, cut me dead and walk off with her nose in the air. I was also expected to come running and sort out everyone else's problems. My brothers are tragically useless characters. One is now severely disabled, the other an alcoholic.

I threw in the towel 4 years ago after yet another drama created by my sister. Said I was sick to death of being slagged off, walked out, never went back. Haven't seen or spoken to any of them since. Had some passive aggressive shit in the post from my sister - unwanted birthday/christmas post with loaded messages about how hard her life is - which was all thrown straight in the bin. Then I moved away.

I think it shocked them all deeply that I walked away, and I know the fallout was significant and that, once again, the blame was placed firmly at my door.

I couldn't care less. My life is so much better without any of them in it.

Going NC was really hard and very upsetting, but I'm totally over it now and it was definitely the right decision. I never want to see any of them again, and I won't be going to my mother's funeral when she passes.

As they say in Dragon's Den..... I'm out.

Thank you for sharing that @Sicario it's really helpful.

I feel that at this moment I can't cut them out as I couldn't cope with the guilt of them hurting themselves. I will be putting very firm boundaries in place though. I do take on board all of your advice, that's goes to everyone who has replied. I guess I'm just not 'there' yet in terms of going NC.......

ARGH. Sorry, quick rant but it is about similar behaviour to others' recent posts so hopefully it will resonate/validate.
I have spoken to two people in my family recently - finally my fear got control of me today and I called my dad to ask if he knew whether or not my mum actually had taken/read my private and explicit love letters (urgh) and both of them have said something along the lines of "if your mother knows that you've spoken to me without speaking to her she's going to go absolutely ballistic" as a way of telling me off?! How can they not see how manipulative that is? I no longer consider her my mother and never want to speak to her again. That is between me and her and she, not me, she is making it everyone else in the family's problem, but they are all talking to me as if it's my responsibility to fix it. FFS.

What about further lowering all contact levels with them on a gradual basis?. How does that sit with you?.

Your parents will in all likelihood disregard any boundary you care to set them. Boundary setting may also be problematic for you mainly because they've encouraged you not to have any.

Your father is never going to hurt his own self deliberately even though he put his legs under the wheels of your car on a previous visit to their house and said you'd have to run him over to leave. This happened when you were dropping off some gifts!. Whilst you did not write what happened next I think he eventually got up and so you were able to leave without running him over. All this from him (and your mother) is done to control you; abusive people like this use such tactics against their target constantly to wear them down, to punish them and as an attempt to bring them back into the dysfunctional fold.

None of that was at all normal behaviour from a parent, emotionally healthy people do not do such things. You must realise that its not normal. Its all histrionics (all this about you trying to destroy them), drama and more drama with these people and its all done for attention. Its emotional manipulation at its worst and he does this too because he can. Your parents aid and abet each other here; theirs is a destructive codependent relationship. Neither of them have ever apologised or accepted any responsibility for their actions have they?.

Your dad did indeed have a shit childhood too but all he has done since is repeat with you what was done to him. He had a choice when it came to you and he chose to abuse. He won't ever seek therapy because he neither wants it or feels he needs it. Such disordered of thinking people rarely go to therapy; he in all likelihood has an untreated and untreatable personality disorder.

The only person they are interested in punishing here is you and you're also aiding and abetting in that by giving your misplaced feelings of guilt and obligation your precious headspace. If anyone should feel guilty here its your parents, not you, and they do not feel any guilt, obligation or shame whatsoever for how you as their daughter has been treated.

Are you still planning on meeting them on Sunday?. I promise I will not write the words, "I told you so" if it all comes crashing down around your ears. Just have a good and fast escape route prepared.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat your post makes so much sense and really resonates with me.

Yes you are correct my dad did eventually move when I agreed to get out of the car to speak to them. It was either that or I would have been stuck there all day probably.

You are also correct that they have never apologised, apart from on one occasion when I stood up to them and my dad said, "I'm sorry but I have no idea what I'm saying sorry for"!

They just blame either me or sometimes they blame it on a misunderstanding or a situation or they say that other things are going on that I don't know about (this usually turns out to be something that is open knowledge about a poorly family member or is a trivial thing about an acquaintance etc) I think they just say it as a reflex then have to think of something that will fit that box.

I have been thinking about gradually reducing contact and I have been grey rocking them for a while now - until the gifts/legs under car situation.

I will still meet them as if I don't they will just come to my house and cause a scene, I'd rather be in a public space where they are more likely to control themselves. If they don't, I will
be telling them there will be no further contact.

I'm sure it won't go well but I think I'm prepared for that, I'm just wondering how to start the conversation really or perhaps I will just let them do the talking without me leading the conversation and see what they say?

I would still urge you to cancel the meeting even if it is in a public place. You at the very least need a good and fast escape route along with a cast iron boundary that if they start to at all kick off you immediately leave. Am certain your husband is concerned for your well-being here.

If they did cause a scene at your house you could phone the police. There is really no good reason at all to be meeting them and with all respect you’re going in unprepared although nothing could prepare you for meeting them in any case. They could well tear you apart further emotionally and your own recovery from their abuses has not properly started yet. I am certain you will be blamed yet again.

These people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Your dad’s apparent apology was a non apology and thus meaningless.

It is not your fault your parents are like this and you did not make them that way. You also need to remember that the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

Hi @MonkeyfromManchester im sorry you are feeling low i can see your sadness in the way you write. As you say she is utterly vile and it is upsetting to hear how badly she has damaged your dh. I have no words of wisdom but just want to let you know you are not alone and that i hope your mood picks up.

Not spoken to dm for 6 weeks, she has still not acknowledged my daughters exam results the callous cow. We live 4.5 hrs away on an island, yes to get away from them. They announced via my dd that they are visiting and have booked a local hotel the weekend 6 aug. I cant bear seeing her even being in her company makes me ill, really i have chronic migraines. Since my psychology work my eyes were truly opened and i feel utter rage and hatred and i dont want even an hour in their company to taint my peace. I am sick of grey ricking, why should i have to hide myself and suppress everything when they spout racist inflammatory and critical crap. I just cant do it. Its been 17m and id happily never see them again. I am a Christian but i long for the day they arent here. Does anyine else have this private, hateful thought. Thankyou for this page and each and every person on it, its the one place in life i can be honest and know i will be understood and believed. Much love xx

Hi @Coconut80 - so they have invited themselves and expect you to fall into line? Does your DD want to see them?

You do not have to seem them. It's entirely up to you. You can say no, don't come, we do not want to see you, you are not welcome here.

If they ignore you, just go out so that you're not there, or don't answer the door, or whatever works for you so that you don't have to see them.

@Sicario thankyou for your reply yes they have invited themselves and booked the hotel. They know i wouldnt let them stay in the house. We are actually all very busy dd working all day sat and im working both mornings. Dd does want to see them although m just pumps her for info as i tell her nothing. I really feel i cant grey rock anymore i know ut is often helpful but it makes me ill and why should i always be the one taking their crap. They are both 81 in ok health m getting worse narc tendancies as she gets older. I just dont want to have to deal with them but then i leave it all to dh who lets it wash over him x

If they turn up at your house you are under no obligation to answer the door to them. Your DH and DD should do the same; not answer the door.

Narcissists often use the children against their "errant" adult child and target them accordingly to try and steal their heart and mind. They used your DD as the weaker link here. She has and continues to be manipulated by her nan and her willing husband/enabler.

Why does she want to see them?. Children are quite indiscriminate in whom they love after all but not all relatives are nice and kind.

Coconut - sounds like your DD is an adult? In which case it's up to her if she wants to see them. It's not easy for our children when we go NC. One of my (adult) DC was visiting last year and said she felt she ought to go and see my DM. I asked her if she was going because she wanted to, or because she felt an obligation to. She said it was because she felt she "ought to", and then decided not to go.

Latterly she got upset, saying that it feels like she has no family any more, and she cried about it. It's only natural that there will be fall-out from going NC, but I leave it entirely up to her if she wants to see any of them.

Yes she has just turned 17 she knows my m hurts me i have given her examples but yes she does want a relationship with them. She video calls my dd and i feel ill hearing her voice invading my house. Ill hsve a talk with dh and decide best strategy. I have to maintain some civility as she knows potentially damaging and extremely sensitive info about me that i suspect if pushed would detonate. This and only this is the reason i usually annually tolerate some contact. Yes @AttilaTheMeerkat he is her weak enabler fascinating the way he pops up like a jack in the box to aggressively defend her hes been doing it 50 plus years he is a weak man who gkadly sacrifices his daughters i have no respect or feelings for him xc

What does your daughter get out of a relationship with her Nan?. Unfortunately narcissists often try and manipulate their grand children to get back at the parents.

Many people of such parents fall into the trap of allowing a relationship to develop between their children and their abusive parents even though they do not want a relationship with them. They hope, often in vain, that they will behave better second time around.

I often write on other threads of a not too dissimilar nature that if a parent or relative is too toxic/difficult or otherwise too batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your child also.

As you well know narcissistic women and their enabler (women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them) also try and steal the heart and minds of the grandchildren and this may be what had happened here. The relationship your child has with her man is not the relationship she thinks it is. Narcissists cannot do relationships and your daughter here is being used by your mother to get back at you.

Coconut - whatever this "damaging information" is, would it really be the end of the world if she decided to broadcast it? Information is power, as they say, but it is only powerful against us if it makes us afraid.

What if you were to share that information yourself, and thus remove any power from your DM? Is it really so terrible? What would the consequences be if you were to share that information with your DH and DD?

Of course I don't know anything about your circumstances, but I do know that you can remove power from other people by taking back control.

For all you know she may well use this anyway even if you did allow once a year contact.

How damaging really is this information?. Would it still retain importance in say three days, weeks, months or years?.

If this information was more widely known it could perhaps lose some of its power particularly if this relates to abuse against you. Do not regardless let this continue to hang over your head like some sword of Damocles. Take it’s power away.

@Coconut80 thank you. Yes, I’m feeling really low. Hit the wall with a bipolar low. The last 18 months have been exhausting and my mental has been terrible. The Hag has realised I don’t want to see her for her haircut and Mr Monkey is taking her. I’ve cancelled Sunday lunch and I’m going to do f**k all. I’ve instructed MM that he is NOT to tell her about this bipolar low as I don’t need her loving it nor do I want it to turn into a drama. She NEVER asks about my health. Mind you, I don’t want a conversation with her about it.

August is stretching out with weekends away and a family visit so I don’t have to see her. I think I’ll be mid-September so the last time was 22 April. You can imagine how joyful that makes me! The level of her self-obsession is incredible. My family - not seen for two years - are coming over from Netherlands next week. Nope, no ‘that must be lovely for you all’. All she’s bothered about is her haircut. The scissors…the scissors…lol.

I’m so sorry you are having a visitation. These people know NO boundaries. So, it’s ok to just turn up?!?! I’m so glad you don’t have to host them in your home. I hope the hotel is ruinously expensive. They just bully their way in. And I’m glad you and your daughter are working and can avoid them as much as possible. Can you meet them at the hotel and then feign illness to get away as soon as possible? And @AttilaTheMeerkatn is so right the relationship with your daughter is about power play but you sound like a fabulous mum and the freaks can’t take that away from you. Much as they would like to.

I certainly have dark thoughts. It’s not surprising, is it? Do not feel guilty. We deal with these people. We’ve carried it. We’re damaged.

The enablers are terrible. I’ve now realised that the BIL plays this role. He’s an idiot to have let this happen. With his disabilities he will prob die early and this will have been his middle age and early 60s. I’ve run out of sympathy for him. If another person stood up to her.

Saw a very good friend yesterday who totally gets Narcs and emotional abuse. We had a great talk and a good laugh. It was good to just take the day off (work has been mental) and she just listened. She’s had two Narc relationships and has now found a wonderful guy.

And this place is such a supportive entity.

@Sicario I certainly know what you mean. I’m out. Yes! Everything you say rings so true.

@CeciledeVolanges hello, remember how well you’re doing. Baby steps.

Sending cake and solidarity to you @MonkeyfromManchester - take it easy and ride out the low patch with aplomb. You are amazing.

Thank you @Sicario I have NOTHING planned this weekend. It’s a treat. Xxxx