Difficult SIL with newborn

[Conkergame]

I’m struggling with my relationship with my SIL (DH’s brother’s wife) and hoping for some advice.

She’s always been a very difficult character (glass half empty, always very negative, very insecure, can’t be happy for anyone, thinks the world is out to get her, rude and verbally aggressive to anyone and everyone). We have as little to do with her as we can, so only see her at wider family events.

She had a baby girl a couple of months ago and has struggled a bit with things (just the normal lack of sleep, getting used to being a mum etc, as well as general Covid worries).

We’ve been as supportive as we can (sending gifts, nice messages, a bit of money when they said they were struggling, etc.) but haven’t seen them as we haven’t been invited and we haven’t wanted to impose by just showing up.

Last night she sent my DH and I a really nasty message accusing us of not being supportive. She didn’t really specify anything we had or hadn’t done but did include a random accusation about us forcing her to come to our house (we have no idea what she’s on about as we haven’t asked her to do that at all!).

We were quite upset by it and DH rang his brother to find out what was going on. His brother is a man of few words but said something like “yeah mate well you haven’t really helped us out since our daughter was born, so you could’ve shown more support”. DH was speechless as we’ve definitely shown a normal level of support and we’re not close to them anyway so it would’ve been inappropriate for us to go round and start muscling in with things with their DD. Knowing what SIL is like, whatever we would have done would have been wrong, so if we had gone round she would have sent a nasty message saying we were intruding on their space etc.

We’re really ground down by how she is and wondering where to go from here. She doesn’t normally lash out randomly like this - it’s normally lots of digs when we see her, so we just keep seeing her down to a minimum and do the whole “grey rock” thing as much as we can / spend most of the time at family events with other relatives. But now she’s lashed out I’m wondering how to respond.

Personally I want to respond sympathising with her difficulties but then defending DH and I, setting out the things we’ve done for them and then asking why she felt the need to lash out like that.

DH’s sister thinks we should cut her some slack as she’s recently given birth (8 weeks ago) so should respond very nicely, apologising, even though we honestly haven’t done anything so there’s nothing to apologise for! I also know many others who have given birth and none have acted like this at all.

DH thinks we shouldn’t respond at all as it will just “feed the beast”.

I’m thinking whatever we do will set the tone for the next few years while she’s a “new mother” so I want to get this right. My worry if we send a nice message without defending ourselves is that she’ll then think she’s entitled to send more of these aggressive, nasty texts and we’ll have set the tone of putting up with them.

Do new mums get to act as they wish, no matter who they hurt? Any advice would be very appreciated!

So firstly, on the basis of what you have written I think you are right your SIL is a very difficult person. I would suggest googling grey rock method. Go low contact and if you need to meet them at subsequent events then use the grey rock techniques as an approach. As a further point of principle, never apologise when you have done nothing wrong- it reinforces narcissists that they are right and they get worse. Gently point out you do not agree if any further points are raised.

[quote Conkergame]@MindyStClaire when she was first born we both sent messages saying “can’t wait to meet her, let us know when you’re ready for guests”. And then about 4 weeks ago DH called his brother to ask if we could arrange a visit but he said they weren’t having visitors due to Covid, so we’ve left it since then.[/quote]
Well there's your answer then!
You offered and were told not to visit. What more can you do?
You sent messages, shared the joy of your new DN and helped out with financial support and gifts. What more could you have possibly have done in those circumstances. If she's a nasty, negative, grumpy bugger she's probably not bonding with baby, they sense and pick up on things very quickly.
Don't go down the route of offering apologies as that will mean you're in the wrong. If you've done nothing wrong and apologise she'll be the eternal victim and throw it back you were in the wrong and admitted it to anyone who'll listen. I'd just ignore them. They're being stupid, don't you buy into that.

She probably isn’t a fundamentally evil person, just a highly strung, insecure woman who is struggling post partum. Lashing out at family is probably the easiest option to let off steam. I know I really struggled to articulate the help I wanted/needed with a newborn (thankfully I didn’t fire off angry text messages though 😬). I really feel for you OP that you are on the receiving end of this - you don’t deserve it!

If you can face being the bigger person and just messaging her I would agree with @buckeejit sentiments. I really, really wouldn’t call her out on her message - don’t fight fire with fire. Keep it empathetic and civil. If you still are in the firing line after this, then silence is the best option. All the best x

Why not give her a call or pop round to see her? Maybe she feels you haven’t been supportive but you need to talk it through rather than sending messages to someone who is probably very emotional right now.

I think I might reply something like -

We were surprised to get your message as obviously we’ve asked to visit several times. We’d certainly love to see the baby when you are ready. In the meantime we hope you are able to make use of the presents / £100 we sent you. Family is important to both of us so if you have any issues going forward it would be best if we met to discuss to avoid any mis-communication. Hopefully this will clear up the current misunderstanding, but if you’d like to talk further we’d be happy to.

Look forward to seeing you at blah blah

Then I would forward to any involved parties like your DPs sister and clarify that you’ve asked to visit a few times, but have been told no/ didn’t want to impose - so if she has any further intell please share as we want to clear this up - but hopefully this will do it.

If you get something crazy back don’t engage further, but you need to politely stand your corner and not be bullied or she may get worse and make your lives difficult as the family members she can pick on. It would appear a new baby is making her even more miserable and she is dragging your BIL down with her. If that carries on, I don’t think the marriage will last.

[quote Conkergame]@Grizalda yes, we definitely will avoid as much as possible. Would you actually message back though, or just leave it?

Also, I assume this approach means we won’t have any relationship with DNiece [/quote]
So in summary: your DH and his brother have never been close. Your SIL has always been difficult. In the gentlest possible way, OP - whatever led you to believe that you would have a good/close relationship with your DNiece?

That would require complete personality transplants on the parts of your BIL and SIL. It won't be the result of any approach you take or don't take, it will just be the natural result of their behaviour. As you have seen, you can behave perfectly and they will still throw their toys out of the pram. You need to follow your DH's lead, here, he seems to have the measure of his brother better than you do.

It is unfortunate and sad for your PIL that two of their children do not get on with one another but the solution is not for you to sacrifice yourself on the altar of their fantasy family life. I hate it when people tell the reasonable party in a disagreement to do/not do X to avoid rocking the boat, when it actual fact the person doing the boat rocking is the OTHER party!

Don’t feed the beast!!!! If you apologise for the sake of it she will have validation for her nonsense.

Honestly your husband spoke to his brother, it’s response enough. You don’t need to respond twice. Let it go. Don’t text back, leave it now. The response was the phone call. It’s done. Texting just keeps it going.

Your husband is right - ignore her, and next time she's struggling/scrounging tell her she can fuck off. Absolutely don't apologise - why on earth would you do that?

Oops sorry I think this message was meant for someone else..
Then block her.

@Conkergame

I’m struggling with my relationship with my SIL (DH’s brother’s wife) and hoping for some advice.

She’s always been a very difficult character (glass half empty, always very negative, very insecure, can’t be happy for anyone, thinks the world is out to get her, rude and verbally aggressive to anyone and everyone). We have as little to do with her as we can, so only see her at wider family events.

She had a baby girl a couple of months ago and has struggled a bit with things (just the normal lack of sleep, getting used to being a mum etc, as well as general Covid worries).

We’ve been as supportive as we can (sending gifts, nice messages, a bit of money when they said they were struggling, etc.) but haven’t seen them as we haven’t been invited and we haven’t wanted to impose by just showing up.

Last night she sent my DH and I a really nasty message accusing us of not being supportive. She didn’t really specify anything we had or hadn’t done but did include a random accusation about us forcing her to come to our house (we have no idea what she’s on about as we haven’t asked her to do that at all!).

We were quite upset by it and DH rang his brother to find out what was going on. His brother is a man of few words but said something like “yeah mate well you haven’t really helped us out since our daughter was born, so you could’ve shown more support”. DH was speechless as we’ve definitely shown a normal level of support and we’re not close to them anyway so it would’ve been inappropriate for us to go round and start muscling in with things with their DD. Knowing what SIL is like, whatever we would have done would have been wrong, so if we had gone round she would have sent a nasty message saying we were intruding on their space etc.

We’re really ground down by how she is and wondering where to go from here. She doesn’t normally lash out randomly like this - it’s normally lots of digs when we see her, so we just keep seeing her down to a minimum and do the whole “grey rock” thing as much as we can / spend most of the time at family events with other relatives. But now she’s lashed out I’m wondering how to respond.

Personally I want to respond sympathising with her difficulties but then defending DH and I, setting out the things we’ve done for them and then asking why she felt the need to lash out like that.

DH’s sister thinks we should cut her some slack as she’s recently given birth (8 weeks ago) so should respond very nicely, apologising, even though we honestly haven’t done anything so there’s nothing to apologise for! I also know many others who have given birth and none have acted like this at all.

DH thinks we shouldn’t respond at all as it will just “feed the beast”.

I’m thinking whatever we do will set the tone for the next few years while she’s a “new mother” so I want to get this right. My worry if we send a nice message without defending ourselves is that she’ll then think she’s entitled to send more of these aggressive, nasty texts and we’ll have set the tone of putting up with them.

Do new mums get to act as they wish, no matter who they hurt? Any advice would be very appreciated!

I'd probably send a nice but clear message that you are there for them both. However, you didn't want to randomly show up and to say these things to your own family is extremely hurtful. Personally they both sound like knobs but to keep the peace maybe 🤷🏼‍♀️

Buckeejit message was great - spells out what you have done for them and also offered - I wonder if she's got a niggle and is just winding herself up - bloody rude though!
I've
Never received anything from my own brother when I had kids and he earns loads - and I certainly wouldn't expect it either

@Strikethrough I think I naively was expecting a change after the baby was born. Was hoping the joy of the occasion might help the brothers get on and thought if we were supportive she might treat us more like loved family members. Clearly it doesn’t work like that and nasty people stay nasty!

I agree with Buckeejit's response - 'when they go low, we aim high' fits here.

I'd be blunt and call and ask exactly what is they want from you.

Sounds to me like she possibly has a personality disorder of some kind. This sort of behaviour- rages, delusions of persecution and martyrdom, are very familiar to me as someone with a family member with NPD. There is no way to deal with it other than limit your contact. Agree with your husband - don't feed the monster.

Conkergame. Just came across this thread.
No SIL and now BIL do not get to treat you like that. I'm afraid I wouldn't have held off this long amd would definitely gone with our hot headed pp and sent the message saying "Who the fuck do you think you are ?".
I would not be apologising for ANYTHING. You and DH have done nothing wrong and have been lovely. SIL is a rude and entitled cow.
I like to believe that i am a fully fledged adult but the cheek of this woman has really pissed me off.
I wouldn't be able to just leave it and I would send her the following.
Dear SIL.

I was extremely disappointed to have received your disgusting message.
DH and I have never tried to force you into visiting us at home and you can be assured that we never would.
Obviously you are aware of how difficult covid has made things for everyone and we never have just turned up at your door ad hoc for a visit as I think that sort of behaviour is rude.
We have done our best to support you, by sending gifts, what we considered to be congratulatory and supportive messages and money in order to try and help you.
We are really at a loss to know what else we could do, especially as by your words and actions we have come to realise that whatever we said or did would not meet with your expectations.
Anyway we intend to move on as we do not wish to upset the family. If you feel that at some point we may be able to at least be civil then great. If not we won't give it another thought. Life is far too short .
Conkers.

I really really think the Mumsnet classic needs to be deployed here:

"I'm sorry, did you mean to be so rude?"

With this face

The block the fuck out of her!

Nothing you ever do will be good enough.

This is between your DH and his DB.

Stand well clear.

Your DH called his DB job done.

Don’t get goaded or provoked into responding - she is after a fight - don’t hand her ammunition in the form of words for a dialogue which she will twist into a fight.

Let her make a real tit of herself - let her own DH deal with her ridiculousness. It can only be her if you don’t step in the ring.

The minute YOU step into this she has achieved her aim and then you are in the fight.

Swerve her. She is not your responsibility.

Your DH knows how to handle his DB - seems likes it’s triangulated through their DS.

Keep out of this sibling fiasco - they have decades of practice ahead of you.

She was a PITA with snipes before. She is just the same now. Swerve - she is NEVER going to change. But you can refuse to pick up the rope and refuse to engage.

Never text - your DH has done enough calling already. Always keep it verbal. If you are in space with her in the future, avoid and grey rock.

Everyone who matters knows the truth of your actions and her continued unreasonableness - no need to continue to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) your actions.

Put her in a box and distance yourselves.

It’s so sad that at this joyous time she finds bitterness.

She likely has longer term undiagnosed MH / emotional issues.

It’s your DHs family, so it really needs to be his call how to deal with it and I think it should be dealt with directly between the two brothers, not by their wives. Just stay out of it OP, this could escalate and you don’t want to be at the centre of a rift within your husbands family.

I like what a pp suggested

"Sorry you feel this way, we didn't want to assume anything or intrude & thought we were being supportive with gifts & Money. Not sure exactly what you'd like us to do [given you told us not to visit] but certainly ask if you're struggling & there's something you think we can help with & we will do our best within our means. I'm sure it's a very stressful time with a Newborn but it will get easier. Thinking of you"

It strikes the balance of stating your case without having a go at her. You could always include something about instead of sending accusatory messages (after the 'ask if you are struggling' but I doubt she will take any sort of criticism well

She may well have PND and not be seeing things (such as your support) objectively or positively right now. I'd go with the softer sorry you feel that way type of approach with her.

I'd agree that it's the brothers that need to sort this out. IF she's depressed your BIL may well need support too. He may be trying to cope by supporting his DW in every thing she says but it's actually alienating any potential support there may be from family or friends.

Your DH should approach his brother with a Look Mate, I was really shocked that you and your DW feel we could have been more supportive. We'd really like to help but not sure how. Can you explain how we can help and why your dw is so angry with us?

Push brother to explain and then decide if it's a forgive, forget or cut contact scenario.

I have to agree halfdonga. She may well be suffering with PND so I would tread a little carefully if your DH decides to respond. Although I didn’t have half the previous issues you’ve had with your SIL, I had almost the same scenario post birth. I had my baby girl last year at the start of lockdown and initially said I didn’t want visitors at that time because of covid. I was so full of worry and anxiety about keeping her safe. I got the couple of texts and gifts you have stated you sent from my siblings but after weeks and weeks I still hadn’t heard from them. I felt so alone. I was struggling so much and just needed my family, someone to just check in on us. I should have reached out but I was being so unreasonable and it got my back up and in my head they didn’t care about her. I didn’t text or call until 3 months had passed and I flipped and told them all to fuck off. So totally unfair of me but was so disappointed she wasn’t being thought of by them to even call and ask how she was doing. I behaved irrationally but at the time I was so caught up in my own thoughts about it all. Now I can see both sides and why they did what they did, they thought they were giving us space but I expected more of them and I still do if I’m honest. I still think it was a pretty shitty thing for them to not even pick up the phone. I could have of course text them but as the days went by I got so wound up I refused to. I would allow your DH to sort this out though it’s his family and really don’t think you should get involved.

Thanks @Sssloou that jade acronym is a helpful one to remember!

I think you should follow your DH’s lead, as it’s his side of the family.

I endured an almost identical situation a few years ago. DH’s brother’s girlfriend had just had a baby, and MIL accused us of not being interested, despite the fact my DH had attempted twice to visit the baby (who was 5 days old at this point, and spent some of those days in hospital), even once turning up on the doorstep with gifts and being turned away.

Anyway, MIL really raged at us and I ended up leaving the house and going home. Relations haven’t been great since but what MIL did (backed up by BIL, his girlfriend was silent), was totally uncalled for and unfounded.

DH tried to defend us but they so self-centred they couldn’t see the reality of the situation.

I don’t know what the answer is, but it does blow over and calm down to a degree. However I don’t forget and am unfortunately a bit of a grudge-bearer, so they picked the wrong person to have a go at if they thought I would go back to playing happy families with them. I tolerate them for DH, but I’d never in a million years want to know any of them if I weren’t married to him.