Conflicted - accused of a crime.

[MamaMiaoff]

My male friend has been accused of sexual assault a month ago and I am conflicted.

He met her off a dating app and they started to send dirty texts. They met for a walk, hit if off and decided to met at a house that evening. He says they got on really well. She was all over him within the hour. He said he calmed it down as although he thought he was in for a promise wanted to chat and relax.

He says an hour later she went to get a drink, stood up and felt odd. She then accused him of giving her drugs. He doesn’t do drugs. She called a friend and said he was making her uncomfortable. He said at that point he left as she was shouting at him not to forward the pictures he took that night. He says there was none. Police has his phone.

Over the next few days she sent him many messages. Accusing him of being a bad man, then prayers of saving his soul and saying she was glad she didn’t do anything more with him than kiss. Then next message she is reporting him to the police for being bad? His friends and me told him to ignore her, but save the messages as they were odd. His last message a few days later was please leave me alone.

That day she went to the police and reported that she blanked out for 20 minutes, he spiked her and thinks he did something to her as she was sore in her private areas a few days later.

My friend got arrested, suspended from his job whilst investigation is ongoing. He is destroyed. He has admitted he thought he was in for a sex, but says he wouldn't expect it if she changed her mind. I believe he would never force anyone to do anything. I have been in a relationship with him and he was very respectful. Not the greatest boyfriend, and has a string of failed relationships.

But - Why go through the invasive procedure of a rape kit if the girl was not sure or lying. They didn’t know each other, so it can’t be revenge.

I believe my friend. But small doubts as it’s a traumatic thing to be investigated for by the women and certainly very serious to be lying. Why out yourself through it?

How do I support? What do I do?

@JimmyJabs so you are saying women never lie 100% of the time? It doesnt matter how high the statistics are for rape vs false accusations.

The point is false accusations are a real thing. Doesnt matter if out of 101 women 100 women get raped and one lies. Thats still one liar and one victim of the lie who should be given a fair trial and his liar punished.

@JimmyJabs

Yeah, sorry, I don't think I'm going to accept that your anecdotes overturn the stats about false accusations. Let's not forget to factor in how many women don't even report their assaults because they assume nobody will believe them - in part because of people like you who seem determined to create some conspiracy about evil, lying women trying to ruin men's lives for no reason.

There is no conspiracy, just an acknowledgment that it is a 2 way street.

Also I've never said that just because a small minority of women (and men) have done this that 'its for no reason'. In 2 of the cases I've described the reason was very obvious.

Although also worth noting that in the case I saw where the woman was prosecuted for lying, she didn't know the 2 men she accused and had never met them before the night in question. She still accused them of some pretty horrendous stuff, when they had only gone out of their way to try and help her (took her back to her room when she was drunk and lost).

It was CCTV that completely undermined her story, at which point she confessed she had made the whole thing up, never gave a reason. 🤷‍♂️

@TheImber

Yes nobody is denying that men can do shitty things, its just that women can also do shitty things.

An uncomfortable fact a lot on here don't like to acknowledge.

Some of the statements in this thread prove my point.

'He's lying' - without any knowledge of specific details.

'On balance I'd believe her' - even after OP described in detail what an obvoiusly unstable person she is and personally vouches for the man

'False accusations are vanishingly rare' - simply not true.

OP herself has doubts hence starting the thread.

There's even a (rare) option where neither of them is lying. He did nothing, she really doesn't remember for various reasons.

From what OP says she hasn't even actually accused him of rape.

I don't know either of these people ,neither do other posters so we can't make a judgement based on personal experience of them.All that is left is statistics and academic experience, which tells us it's more likely she's telling the truth than lying. It doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

That's the police's job at the moment, to try and figure out what happened,if anything.

[quote JimmyJabs]Do you think we should trust you and your anecdata or the director of the DPP?
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare[/quote]
Who is referring to proven in court false allegations.

Even in the situations I've been on the periphery of, of the 3 x incidents, 2 of them never got prosecuted despite it being obvious to everyone, including the police and the womens friends that they had made it up to cover up infidelity.

Fuck me, mumsnet at its finest once again.

Yes on Mumsnet all men are precious angels, all women are lying psychos, and rape doesn't exist - or if it does it's the woman's fault.

Mumsnet is Handmaid central.

He’s a friend and ex boyfriend who you found respectful. Why don’t you believe him? His story sounds plausible. And she sounds like she could be a fruit loop to me.

shanethethird you can put your strawman away. "So you're saying..." - no, I'm not fucking saying that. I'm just sick of the myth that women lie about this frequently, when the statistics say that they don't. Just making that statement doesn't mean that I think false accusations are ok. I am just aware of how difficult it is for women to get any sort of justice when they are attacked and that inflating the false allegation stats makes that even worse.

@JimmyJabs

shanethethird you can put your strawman away. "So you're saying..." - no, I'm not fucking saying that. I'm just sick of the myth that women lie about this frequently, when the statistics say that they don't. Just making that statement doesn't mean that I think false accusations are ok. I am just aware of how difficult it is for women to get any sort of justice when they are attacked and that inflating the false allegation stats makes that even worse.

You can't rely on the false allegation stats to tell you how many false allegations actually happen any more than you can rely on the rape conviction stats to accurately tell you how many rapes actually happen.

Why are you so keen to view one set of stats as gospel, while completely rubbishing another unless its purely to fit your own agenda?

TheImber the point is, 4 incidents in 20 years is not a lot, just because you personally don't know of any women in that time who were raped. You're falling victim to the logical fallacy known as the availability heuristic, which assumes that things happen more frequently than they do because you get to hear about them more often. In reality, things that are rare tend to make the news, so to speak, more often than things that are commonplace, so your ideas about their rarity or otherwise are distorted.

And as for your last question, you could usefully ask yourself the same.

@TheImber

Yes nobody is denying that men can do shitty things, its just that women can also do shitty things.

An uncomfortable fact a lot on here don't like to acknowledge.

Some of the statements in this thread prove my point.

'He's lying' - without any knowledge of specific details.

'On balance I'd believe her' - even after OP described in detail what an obvoiusly unstable person she is and personally vouches for the man

'False accusations are vanishingly rare' - simply not true.

Wow, as much as the one poster who said he’s lying like that was called out, many times for saying it, the op does not know this woman, she only has his description of her instability. Wouldn’t it be lovely if it was vanishingly rare for rapists and abusers to claim the victim was unstable?

And yes it is very rare for women to go to thr police and claim this falsely. It is sadly also rare for a woman to even tell the police in the first place.

Do some googling and educate yourself.

@JimmyJabs

TheImber the point is, 4 incidents in 20 years is not a lot, just because you personally don't know of any women in that time who were raped. You're falling victim to the logical fallacy known as the availability heuristic, which assumes that things happen more frequently than they do because you get to hear about them more often. In reality, things that are rare tend to make the news, so to speak, more often than things that are commonplace, so your ideas about their rarity or otherwise are distorted.

And as for your last question, you could usefully ask yourself the same.

I'm not saying false accusations are common, just that they are more common than they are usually represented, especially on mums net!

'Educate yourself'

The last bastion of someone with no argument.

Yeah, but you're basing your assertion on nothing other than your own observations. And claiming that other people are arguing from some sort of agenda simply because they don't agree with you. It's true that I dislike seeing people claiming that their personal anecdotes hold any kind of evidential weight, but as agendas go, it's pretty transparent. You'll notice that I said nothing about my opinion of the guilt of the actual man that the OP is referring to, as I don't know what happened between him and this woman who has accused him and I don't feel confident in labelling him as a rapist or her as a lying psycho, unlike certain other posters.

@MamaMiaoff

Thanks for you comments. I Have feelings for him as a friend - no romantic interest. Regardless of past relationships we maintained a good friendship. He treated me well as a boyfriend, we just had different values in a relationship, distance, and realised we were better as friends. Which we have done for over a year. Both dated others and no jealousy. My loyalty is as a friend. Same as if a female tried had been accused.

Yes I am hurt he broke our bubble and he knows that. But based on what’s happened, I need to forgive him and I don’t think he will again. Told him if he is going to do that, we will meet outside instead.

I don’t know op. I really hope it was this good and equal, for your sake, and not you wanted more and he didn’t, and you’ve hung on in there. And that he’s as good a friend to you as you are to him.

He’s not just broke your bubble, he was proactively chasing and trying to have sex with a stranger, which could have resulted in him contracting a high viral load and compromising your health. Covid is like a lottery. You don’t know how you’ll react to getting it. It’s not like he went to see his Nan.

As long as this is an equal friendship, then supporting him through this is ok for you, if it’s not, then I’d take a step back for your own sake.

I think rape and sexual assault are incredibly common
I think going to the police and reporting it is incredibly rare
I have always assumed I would have a serious sexual crime committed against me and have always wondering if it would be worth going to the police, I'm not sure I would.

@TheImber

'Educate yourself'

The last bastion of someone with no argument.

Actually, my arguments are at least backed up by statistics and educate yourself was for your benefit

4 percent of rape accusations are thought to be false by the home office. And approx 23 percent of rapes are reported. 77 percent are not

So for ever 400 rapes which have occured.. only one hundred are reported and of this approx 4 are false.

Which ever way you cut it, it’s a tiny percentage. And in the over whelming majority of cases thr man is indeed a rapist and the woman telling the truth.

Why do you unquestioningly accept that the official statistics on false rape allegations are 100% accurate and fairly represent how many false rape allegations are made, while at the same time maintain that the official statistics on rape convictions are in no way representative of how many rapes actually happen?

I dont accept either. I dont pick and choose stats to suit my own agenda.

@TheImber

Why do you unquestioningly accept that the official statistics on false rape allegations are 100% accurate and fairly represent how many false rape allegations are made, while at the same time maintain that the official statistics on rape convictions are in no way representative of how many rapes actually happen?

I dont accept either. I dont pick and choose stats to suit my own agenda.

No, you think women claim false rape more often.

I don’t.

Are you male?

@saltandsugar

I think rape and sexual assault are incredibly common I think going to the police and reporting it is incredibly rare I have always assumed I would have a serious sexual crime committed against me and have always wondering if it would be worth going to the police, I'm not sure I would.

I don't think I would either. I have a friend who was raped by a man she vaguely knew while she was too drunk to know what was happening. She had a history of mental illness and risk-taking behaviour, and when she told another friend what had happened, she was basically told that she'd brought it on herself by drinking too much and nobody would believe her because she was taking antidepressants. She didn't report it, and I can't honestly say I would have done in her shoes. I have a history of depression too and I know how it can be used against you.

I am really sorry this has turned into an argument. Basically no I don’t want anything from him except friendship. It’s an equal friendship, much stronger than a relationship.

Hopefully the police will investigate properly and the right outcome will happen

'Are you male'

And here comes the ad hominem, the last refuge of a scoundrel.

@TheImber i agree with you but most on mumsnet wont. As a pp pointed out 4% of rape claims are thought to be false accusations.

Yes much more women are genuinely raped and thats awful. But right now tgere is an op about a man who has been accused by a stranger to both him and the op, and most people automatically have decided he is a rapist and liar when there is a 50% chance he is innocent. Thats the problem here.

Everything that has been discussed here aside @MamaMiaoff, you need to take a step back from this man because he is leaning on you heavily at the expense of your own mental well-being around this issue. He is definitely relying on your unconditional support. You need to see how the investigation goes and you also need to prepare yourself that your friend might not be the man you think he is.

[quote MamaMiaoff]@Silverthorny thank you. It’s hard to be objective. I have said to him are you site you didn’t miss read the signals? He said no, if she said stop I would have. But no one was there. He says he stopped it as was going fast. I have given him hell for meeting a random woman and putting them both in this situation. It was easily avoided by not going back for sex.

@Sssloou yea the intensity is hard. I support him, but don’t understand why someone would be doing this is not true. It’s based on what She thinks happened. In a weird way I am glad the police are taking her account seriously as many women are too scared. Also given him a kick to behave better.

We spent few hours together and I asked him to not talk about it. Just a normal day. He apologised for the stress.[/quote]
So do you know whether he had sex with her or not?