Conflicted - accused of a crime.

[MamaMiaoff]

My male friend has been accused of sexual assault a month ago and I am conflicted.

He met her off a dating app and they started to send dirty texts. They met for a walk, hit if off and decided to met at a house that evening. He says they got on really well. She was all over him within the hour. He said he calmed it down as although he thought he was in for a promise wanted to chat and relax.

He says an hour later she went to get a drink, stood up and felt odd. She then accused him of giving her drugs. He doesn’t do drugs. She called a friend and said he was making her uncomfortable. He said at that point he left as she was shouting at him not to forward the pictures he took that night. He says there was none. Police has his phone.

Over the next few days she sent him many messages. Accusing him of being a bad man, then prayers of saving his soul and saying she was glad she didn’t do anything more with him than kiss. Then next message she is reporting him to the police for being bad? His friends and me told him to ignore her, but save the messages as they were odd. His last message a few days later was please leave me alone.

That day she went to the police and reported that she blanked out for 20 minutes, he spiked her and thinks he did something to her as she was sore in her private areas a few days later.

My friend got arrested, suspended from his job whilst investigation is ongoing. He is destroyed. He has admitted he thought he was in for a sex, but says he wouldn't expect it if she changed her mind. I believe he would never force anyone to do anything. I have been in a relationship with him and he was very respectful. Not the greatest boyfriend, and has a string of failed relationships.

But - Why go through the invasive procedure of a rape kit if the girl was not sure or lying. They didn’t know each other, so it can’t be revenge.

I believe my friend. But small doubts as it’s a traumatic thing to be investigated for by the women and certainly very serious to be lying. Why out yourself through it?

How do I support? What do I do?

[quote MamaMiaoff]@Hoppinggreen they do sounds nuts. I really want to believe my friend. Slight doubt as she has put herself through a horrible investigation for supposedly no reason. Why?

That’s what I can’t process. He texted this morning asked if he should drive to just bail or taxi as he isn’t sure if it gets extended or not[/quote]
I appreciate you're his friend but he's leaning on you a lot on this. Surely that's something he needs to ask his solicitor / police / google himself. Don't let this take up all of your headspace if it's making you uncomfortable.

@Hoppinggreen

There’s his version, her version and then there’s the truth Maybe she’s unhinged or maybe he assaulted her but (luckily?) for your friend there is no evidence that he did assault her and the text messages sound like there’s evidence she’s nuts Crazy people do get assaulted though, some men target them as it’s less likely they will be believed.

Totally agree with this and then the lawyers pitch in with either a “Nuts” or “Sluts” defence.

OP couple of other things to explore that maybe unsettling you sub consciously after a month of being v close to this (it might be helpful for you to pan back):

“He met her off a dating app and they started to send dirty texts. They met for a walk, hit if off and decided to met at a house that evening. He says they got on really well. She was all over him within the hour. He said he calmed it down as although he thought he was in for a promise wanted to chat and relax.”

This doesn’t ring true to me. They already had an overtly sexualised virtual RS over text - decided to go back to a house, she apparently comes on to him - and he then chooses to “calm it down” ..... I just don’t think that’s realistic.

It’s also not consistent with his statement:

“He has admitted he thought he was in for a sex, but says he wouldn't expect it if she changed her mind.”

This isn’t consistent as HE was the one who changed his mind by calming it down not her changing HER mind.

“My gut says they were going to have a sexual relationship and she changed her mind and in her panic something was said that neither picked up on.”

So do you think then that they did actually have sex? Why is your gut different to his version of events?

“I have heard him tel the story a few times to a councillor, dr and lawyer over the phone. It’s been consistentm”*

Not sure if you are being consistent - as in your later post you say that you only heard him talk to the lawyer?

I also struggle with your characterisation of him as a saviour of complex women - he isn’t very successful in his mission is he if he then discards them so quickly (“not a good boyfriend with a string of failed relationships”) - he must have left a long trail of distress behind him. I wonder if he targets vulnerable women and gets some sort of kick messing with them?

Lots going on here OP. Your gut is telling you something after a month of being v closely involved. Pay attention to your gut.

You may not know what it is yet - it may not be around the “facts” that you have to hand - just something “off”, confusion, a feeling.

Or maybe it’s that YOU are drained and exhausted and need to take some emotional space. This is likely to go on for many many months - so you need to think about pacing yourself.

@Sssloou it is his style to calm things down. We would fooling about and he would stop if in middle of a movie.

I think he doesn’t know what he wants. Goes into save and if he can’t steps back. Our issue was he was trying to help me but I have normal issues. Didn’t want his help so felt redundant.

Said before. It’s why would she put herself through this.

A difficult situation, she doesn't sound well but then trauma does that too you. The forensic investigation should come up with answers.

OP, would it help YOU to remind yourself that we can only ever know the truth about things that we have experienced directly? For everything else, we rely on hearsay.

And that can be everything from respected professionals such as government officials, doctors, lawyers, judges, professors, researchers, right down to he-said-she-said from a colleague who's next door neighbour's best friend met a bloke in a pub who told him the god's honest truth...

Even if the police drop the charges against your friend, you will never know for sure what actually happened. Because you weren't there. All you can do is decide for yourself what you believe. You can also choose to keep an open mind, and support him in a way that protects your own self and emotions. It's okay to distance yourself a bit and tell him "You'd need to ask your lawyer about that" or "Why would she do this? I don't know, Bob, I can't speak for other women and I don't know her, and I'm really not comfortable speaking about this in such detail with you. Why don't we go do something instead? How about a walk?"

What I would suggest is that if he is going to remain on suspension from work (I assume on full pay) for an indefinite period - take note of the PP upthread whose case has been ongoing for 3 years - he needs to do something to keep himself occupied. This would be a great time to immerse himself in taking a new qualification that would help him progress his career (or change careers) once he is back to work.

Equally he could resign from his current job and look for another, however this would make referencing difficult and might look as if he's anticipating a guilty verdict.

It's a tough situation for you OP and I think the key is to focus on what support you can give him, that you feel comfortable with him, rather than speculating about motives etc.

At the end of everything there's only a few scenarios:

1. You support him and he gets found guilty. You then feel shit and used and decieved. Or you choose to believe it's a false conviction, but then feel conflicted because you know that statistically that's very unlikely. The friendship is probably dead, anyway.
2. You support him and he gets found not guilty, or charges are dropped. You feel your friendship has deepened and he's grateful for your support.
3. You don't support him, and he gets found guilty. Friendship is dead but you feel you did the right thing.
4. You don't support him, and he gets cleared. You feel like a twat. Friendship is dead.

For me, I would think about which of those outcomes I could live with, balance that against all of the evidence you have personally seen - the messages, the call with his lawyer, your previous experience of his behaviour - and make a decision based on all of that.

They’re much more predisposed to take a victim at their word these days

Where on EARTH are you getting that from?! There are at least 3 FORCES who've been caught not even recording reports made by potential victims of vawg!

Well I could base it on the College of Policing’s own guidance that says officers should take a victim’s complaint at face value yea cos that translates to real life! See above paragraph!

The fact is you cannot possibly know the truth op. You weren't there, you're only getting his side and you don't know her at all!

There are many rapists and abusers who are perfectly capable of behaving "respectfully" in their relationships, hell there are serial killers that managed this!

Statistically, chances are she is telling the truth. There are VERY few cases of false accusation, yes they happen on occasion but they are very very rare.

The police generally are pretty poor at acting in such cases ("date rape") and so I'm thinking that

A she must have been very convincing to even get them to investigate and quite honestly if there was even a HINT of mental illness in her history that's fairly unlikely

B the rules and regs are such these days that there needs to be pretty good evidence before they can arrest someone

Plus all the he thought he was guaranteed sex but calmed it down just so they could talk, yeah right yea I must admit I'm not buying that one either

You can't even be sure you've seen all the messages, it's very easy to delete both hers and his, and it's even possible to edit them if you have the know how. Or even set up a false message stream using a different mobile number you have no way of knowing what is her correct number and I'm assuming they were shown to you as "from accusers name"? Very easy to falsify for your perusal, not so much for the police they have ways of verifying more deeply.

His being "consistent" is meaningless

Glad to see you acknowledge her "inconsistency" could well be related to her being traumatised.

I would like to think he doesn’t pray on vulnerable. He has a history of going out with people who have past issues

Well that's a contradiction isn't it? By definition if they have "past issues" they are vulnerable

He may have treated you well BECAUSE he knew you had no "past issues" and therefore if he'd behaved badly he'd have had no way to deflect blame or deny. It's common for women and girls with "past issues" not to be believed in such cases.

just because it might seem that the accuser is mentally unwell, or malicious, doesn’t mean she is.

Also even if an accuser is mentally unwell, doesn't mean they're lying or wrong

If you can be supportive as a friend without necessarily dismissing the likely possibility he is guilty then that's one thing, it doesn't sound as if that's the case. I think if you knew for certain he was guilty you'd be backing right off. For your sake you need to be careful you don't give too much of yourself such that if it emerges he is guilty you can't cope with the aftermath, which is something I think most people would struggle with.

Again, statistically chances are he's guilty.

Another thing to bear in mind - many sex attackers don't BELIEVE themselves they are guilty. There was a study I think in Canada where a large group of men were posed a number of questions where sexual harassment and assault scenarios up to and including rape were presented without the crime being named and the majority of respondents admitted to having done such things themselves but didn't recognise themselves as abusers/rapists. There was also a Reddit group (now deleted) which consisted of men telling their own personal recollections of having committed sexual assault again up to and including rape but not "realising" at the time of committing the offence. They were speaking of their having sort of epiphanies where they realised they HAD committed such offences and their feelings about this.

There is still a LOT of work to be done in educating about consent, not just boys and men. Regularly on this site there are women posting questioning whether an incident was assault, because they don't really understand what is/isn't consensual, because they are traumatised and don't want to admit they've been assaulted (usually because the perpetrator is their partner/spouse), because they are living in a patriarchal and misogynistic society that prioritised men's desires over women's safety...

It's a huge problem.

Beware the self described "nice guy" which it sounds like this guy tends to be?

A saviour complex doesn't make him a nice guy, or even a vulnerable one necessarily. It's a mental disorder because it's not a normal way to behave and in many cases is attached to narcissistic tendencies too. It's certainly not healthy!

From all you've said about him, I'm inclined to believe her.

[quote MamaMiaoff]@Sssloou involved as I am one of two people he has told. He was destroyed. As a friend you support. He is stressed, depressed questioning himself. Embarrassed that due to policy he can’t work.

He has short relationships as he always thinks the grass is greener, saviour complex ( why we didn’t work as I don’t want saved). New people more exciting.

It is draining and I pulled back a bit. But keeping him in a routine by walks and support.

My doubt is why would a woman put herself through this on a lie, especially as they just met.

My gut says they were going to have a sexual relationship and she changed her mind and in her panic something was said that neither picked up on. She is saying she dues to know what happened and police said until proven he is on bail.

He was with me when lawyer called.[/quote]
This is so hard OP. I think in your shoes I would suspend my judgements about it because it’s not my job. The police are there to investigate. If nothing previously made me think he would do this I would be a friend to him but also not do or say anything to anyone other that the friend that would be negative to the woman should it turn out to be true.

You believing her would change nothing for her at this point. Whereas if it’s not true your (private) support for your friend would be invaluable.

@RantyAnty

He's lying.

Wow, do you work for the police? Because they could really do with someone like you for the force.

I dont have enough information to say either way by the time you posted

@RantyAnty

He's lying.

What a stupid comment when you know nothing of the situation.

The reality is that if is innocent until proven guilty.

Unless you have specific, overwhelming reasons to believe he has done this and is lying then my feelings would be that you continue to treat him like your friend with a belief that he is innocent. It’s perfectly normal to have an element of doubt, no one can ever be 100% about something unless they saw it with their own 2 eyes - and even then doubts can creep in.

I had a friend who was accused of rape and assault of his ex partner. They had a very very toxic and fractious relationship- it was not one sided, she was a much of a nightmare as she was. Lots of games, cheating and mistreatment of each other.

She accused him of rape, he says they had consensual sex and she was using this as a punishment that he’d ended the relationship.

I had known this guy for 15 years and although he was a massive pain in the arse in many ways, I had never seen even a hint of sexual violence or predatory behaviour. I never felt unsafe around him and I’d slept in his bed, spent lots of time alone etc, as had a lot of my female friends. He wasn’t known as a sex pest.

The first trial it was a hung jury. The second trial they found him guilty.

I have never spoken to him since, he did reach out when he first went to prison but I couldn’t maintain a friendship with a rapist. If a jury found him guilty then he’s guilty in my mind.

Long story short, if you have no reason to think he is lying and your experience of him and gut tells you he’s not, then assuming innocent until guilty is the right thing to do. If he is innocent this could well ruin his life or cause some significant trauma.

I feel do few rape cases or sexual assaults are charged and its still pretty awful going to the police that the chances of going through that for no reason are slim.

Also we all like to think our friends and family wouldn't do this. But it's someone's friend or family member.

It’s very hard living with uncertainly.

As a PP said, all you can do is either support him as a friend, or withdraw till the investigation is over. You have chosen the former so what’s important is it doesn’t drain you - can he access some other support, even professional counselling?

It may turn out that he is telling the truth, she is - or somewhere in between - and it may also be you will never know for sure.

From what you’ve said it does sound to me nothing much will come of it.

So you are his ex? Why is he getting you so involved in this? She sounds unbelievably (this being the key word) unhinged from HIS version of events. You may have seen texts but you don’t truly know her side of this story. For me the biggest red flag is how comfortable he is for you to get dragged into this mess.

The cynic in me would think he is keeping you close so if it does go further he can wheel you out as the convenient ex who will swear blind he never did anything to harm her. You have said yourself you are not his usual type.. just because he didn’t hurt you does not make him incapable of hurting others.

I’m confused and I’m not sure what the correct procedure is. But if she said she was drugged, didn’t police do some kind of drug test? I mean even if she went a few days later to the police, it might still be in her system? Did she say she was molested/raped because I think police will have a rape kit? Maybe something untoward did happen which is why the police are investigating?

I mean, it should be innocent until proven guilty, but I didn’t know police can arrest without a shred of evidence unless I’m wrong?

@HeadlessGummyBears the police quite rightly investigate any sexual assault. Assume she has had a rape kit as they swabbed him.

He has been told it’s being investigated as she claimed he spiked her and she thinks he raped her in the 20 mins she can’t remember.

I have told him it’s hearsay and Ned to wait for scientific evidence.

What’s doing my head in is trust. We were in a bubble and he destroyed that by going round to someone’s house. He said he wanted to tell me after, but said I would have a go at him for breaking the bubble and putting me in danger.

I have done and told him during covid there was no way this should of happened. His excuse they both got tested at work so safe.

but I didn’t know police can arrest without a shred of evidence unless I’m wrong?

You are wrong. I know someone it happened to. Consensual sex. The woman then decided she didnt want her boyfriend to find out she cheated so accused him of rape. Her story was full of lies. He was arrested the next day and had to sign into the police station each day as part of the enquiry. He proved via cctv and unrelated witnesses everywhere they had gone that night whilst she lied to the police saying she never went there. Cut a long story short it took 2 weeks before she buckled and admitted she had lied about the whole thing to save her relationship. His life is still destroyed over ten years later by it.

@ShaneTheThird
Do you mean a legal firm proved he hadn’t done it ?
The internet is full of the “I know a woman who lied about sex she regretted” but I’m not entirely convinced, about your story about your friend, based on my experience.
The police do not take action unless they have some kind of evidence. They don’t just apply bail conditions Willy nilly

@ShaneTheThird that’s terrible. I am hoping it’s the same situation with my friend. He has been arrested and on bail as she can’t remember. But back of my mind, why go through this?

I would assume that she had a blood test for the date rape drug that she claims she was slipped - are the results for that back?

Op - don’t believe everything you hear!

As far as been told. He has had all tests, so has he. He said he offered up his phone and anything needed for evidence

Guess you have to wait and see then

Do you still harbour feelings for him OP 🌺