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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Those of you married to a lawyer

240 replies

Ancientruins · 12/02/2021 09:40

Does it ever get better?

He's a lovely man and he earns a good salary but I'm twenty or so years in and the work never stops. I mean never.
Not on holiday. Not during births. Not during house moves.

And although a devoted husband and father who totally gets stuck in when available, that tends to be only two half days at weekends if we are lucky. And then he is so exhausted he either forces himself to join in, falls asleep while we are watching a film, or he looks so wretched I send him to bed to catch up on sleep.

Things are much better when we are on holiday; he becomes so much happier and more relaxed although business calls still creep in here and there. And of course it takes him ten days on either side to fight through the work and then catch up again to even get to the point where he can leave the office for a few days.

It used to work well because I very much like my own company and I have a close and supportive family, but as time goes on, I am starting to wonder what's the point, why do you even need a wife, do you just expect me to sit here and wait until you are available in fifteen years when you are retired? Isn't the point to enjoy the journey along the way? When I ask him this he says "but the reason I am doing this is for you and the DC". What am I supposed to say to that?

It sounds selfish because I know he loves me and relies on me being "around" but I am getting a bit tired of being at the bottom of the priority list which appears to be: work, DC (quite rightly), dog, household necessities, life admin, wife. Except by the time he gets time to focus on me he is so tired his eyes literally glaze over when we speak. I try not to take it personally.

I'm thoroughly fed of him constantly being on his phone, or conversations, meals , evenings being interrupted by calls from clients. When we were first married it was a joke that as soon as we started a conversation , he would rush out of the door to the office, to the airport, to a client meeting. Our teens actually named him "the smoke" because that's all that's left in his trail. The joke is starting to wear a bit thin!

People assume there are monetary compensations but I am lucky enough to have my own source of income so I am not dependent on him for that.

He says he can only do his job now at this level because of all the hours and the expertise he has built up over thirty years. And I know his work is in an important field which he finds incredibly challenging, and intellectually satisfying. But it doesn't leave time for anything else, and as the years go on, there doesn't seem to be any hope that things will change before he retires, if he doesn't drop dead of a heart attack or stroke first.

I miss him Sad

OP posts:
CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/02/2021 15:49

I don't know whether this will be helpful OP, but I can offer the child's perspective?

My dad is a lawyer of this type. He rarely got home before 9 in my childhood and often worked all day through weekends and holidays. I remember several childhood holidays (before wireless internet) of sitting in hot squares outside cafes waiting for him to finish a two hour conference call that he couldn't miss from a phonebox.

It definitely was a choice, and it definitely impacted our relationship. He's been wildly successful and I had a very privileged childhood because of it, but at 6 I didn't want that. I wanted a dad who I saw for more than 3 hours a week and knew who my friends were and what I cared about.

At a certain point in my teens I just gave up, really. I accepted I wasn't going to have a close relationship with him and that's been the norm ever since. He takes us out for the odd nice meal now and he's got a good sense of humour and is very charismatic, but he doesn't know me, not really. It's desperately sad.

He's in his 70's now and still hasn't retired - he and the firm keep coming up with reasons he's indispensable. He missed out on so much, and one day I'm afraid he's going to realise just how much.

I hope it gets better for you OP, but I have to say I deliberately chose not to date people like that as I got older. It's not a marriage I would've chosen for myself.

Ancientruins · 15/02/2021 15:51

He says he doesn't believe in retirement as a concept Brownet Confused but I think seven years refers to when he stops working full time and can pick and choose the odd case to keep his hand in.

Xiaoxiong and Brownet I'm glad you have both found a better path , and congratulations to other professionals on here who have found a way to make it work well for your families too.

OP posts:
Ancientruins · 15/02/2021 15:52

CautiouslyPessimistic Flowers. That sounds very hard indeed for you. And for him when he eventually realises it.

OP posts:
brownet · 15/02/2021 16:07

One thing I've started to notice about relatives & family friends marriages is when retirement or a slow down happens many of the men kind of shrink their world & want to stay home whereas often the women want to expand theirs & do more.

brownet · 15/02/2021 16:11

I don't know the solution but good luck OP

MsTSwift · 15/02/2021 16:23

Think it’s the old cliche you cannot change another’s behaviour just how you respond to it.

ElspethFlashman · 15/02/2021 17:52

Everything will change in 7 years time?

Yet he doesn't believe in retirement?

And what miraculously changes in 7 years? What goal has been reached? What will be the tangible and absolute indicator that the end of full-time working has come?

Bet he was a bit vague about that.

lavieestbelle70 · 15/02/2021 18:13

Lawyer here and dd’s dad is also a lawyer. Both very senior and yes, it’s sometimes relentless but not all the time. Private practice is usually harder, in his experience he’s working harder now than he ever has (partner) and my job is pretty full on as a general counsel of a corporate head quarters but it’s swings and roundabouts.

Dd dad was recently able to buy a $1m with his salary so it isn’t all drawbacks and we often have long lunch breaks together etc.

I wouldn’t put up with it op, yes he needs a career, and yes you need money but to not be at his DCs birth, well, that’s just outrageous.

My job will never come before my family.

category12 · 15/02/2021 18:14

7 years out of his children's childhoods and seven years of marital loneliness, and no guarantee the goalpost won't get moved then.

Candleabra · 15/02/2021 18:37

7 years sounds like the perfect timescale for him.
Short enough to keep you hopeful, but long enough so he doesn't have to worry about changing anything.

ElspethFlashman · 15/02/2021 18:44

And of course the kids are teens.

So in 7 years time they'll have gone off to college.

So his purported plan is to reduce his hours when their childhood is completely over. It's very sad for them.

"The Smoke" will be their main memory of him.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 15/02/2021 18:54

I have friends in this situation, working all hours and every milestone they set passes without change - DC, DC off to school, turning 40, DC off to big school, turning 50, DC leaving home - and still they are absent from their family life.
Working themselves sick, in some cases.
They might be building up a retirement fund (if they ever retire), but their DC (and possibly partners) won't be around to share in it.
And then they might drop dead of a heart attack on retirement, and that's it. Over. And for what.
But they still say they're envious of us despite the low paid jobs & old house, shit car & no foreign holidays, because we chose to get off the treadmill & move back to the sea so we can have tea on the beach with the DC when we want.
You can never get that time back.

Eggsley · 15/02/2021 18:54

7 years is ridiculous. I'd say that needs to come up with a plan now, to be implemented in the next 1-2 years. He needs to show he is committed to you and the children OP. I'm cross with him on your behalf!

HeronLanyon · 15/02/2021 19:09

And further to my previous (both barristers) - we’ve set a date for a big chat about changes. Despite making changes around 5 years ago we both want to keep going rather than settle with what is still heavy and stressful workload. Think it will encompass career, property, location, pensions etc. Bloody hell - I’m really happy but now need to find time to dig out paperwork and try to work out basics about all of those things. Cold hard regroup here.good luck op.

Querywhether · 15/02/2021 21:49

City lawyer here too, although only done it for 7 years. Yes it is hard, and to be honest partnership just looks shit and is not something I aspire to at all. It’s not like the 80s when, as far as I can tell, it was basically like Mad Men. There’s so much pressure now and people are “on” 24/7.

I know quite a few partners like your H. Some of them I genuinely worry about because they seem like nice people who are ruining themselves. I’ve known partners who’ve dropped down dead from heart attacks (apparently stress induced), had nervous breakdowns, not to mention the affairs/sexual harassment/divorces. One guy used to come into the office from about 9 to 7 every day (including weekends) without fail. Every time I had to come in on a weekend, he was there. I think he just loved it.

To be fair, there are also partners who seem to have everything under control but they’re a minority. As a whole, it’s a very dysfunctional profession.

To be honest, he needs to be completely fed up with it himself or he’ll never change how he works. The 7 years thing sounds like bullshit - I don’t know any partners who “pick and choose the odd case” unless they have actually retired as partners but stayed on as consultants.

PersonaNonGarter · 15/02/2021 21:59

I am a lawyer in a mid-tier City firm. Some people choose to work like your DH, OP, but lots of people don’t and are able to get on with it fine.

One of my teammates is a noticeable workaholic, producing work 24/7 month after month. He never uses up annual leave, is never Out of Office and is always available to clients (but not his family).

Never mind the missing dinners and children’s concerts, being a workaholic takes a physical toll and is insanely unhealthy. This same colleague once spoke about his pension fund - and honestly, I almost laughed. It seemed implausible that he’ll live long enough to collect a pension. It’s awful but it is completely his choice.

Ancientruins · 16/02/2021 10:48

Some very interesting insights here in to how things haven't improved materially very much in the legal profession for those wishing to combine motherhood and a career. The image of the women running to their cars (sorry can't find specific post) certainly hits home. And the poster who was offered unpaid leave. Depressing.

For the sake of accuracy and fairness, I should point out that DH was at the birth of our DC but worked for large parts of the labours. And he is close emotionally to the DC as he is bright and seems instinctively to know what they need from him at that particular moment, so he is able to make the most of the limited time he is with them. That's when he is not exhausted of course or preoccupied. He isn't physically there a lot of the time though so the DC are used to it being me and them together. Our local butcher actually asked me once (very tactfully!) If my husband was dead. I do feel lonely but I don't think I can equate my position to that of a single parent as I imagine that would be much, much harder, given that DH provides well financially and does come on holiday with us occasionally and if there is a real family crisis, I can talk things over with him, although I have to be concise because there is usually an outside time pressure.

I feel disloyal and ungrateful writing it down but I have to work out if the positive points above balance out everything else, and seven years, as many of you are saying, is a long time and frankly I'll believe it when I see it. I have to look at this all objectively of course in terms of my own character and contribution and I am certainly no mega spouse or mother or anything, just an average person, with faults like everyone else.

If I am brutally honest, the most difficult thing is the imbalance to do with me feeling incidental to his life where as he feels central to mine and I always thought that was purely down to billable hours but now I am not so sure!

Thanks again everyone. This thread is a sobering read but it's better to make decisions about the future based on realism rather than from a position of "head in the sand".

OP posts:
ElspethFlashman · 16/02/2021 11:22

Reminds me of that Maya Angelou quote:

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option"

Ancientruins · 16/02/2021 11:29

I think that's a bit extreme in our case ElspethFlashman because there is genuine love between DH and me, and as a pp said, he feels trapped and pressured by his responsibility to his clients (stakes very high if he cocks up) but I hear what you are saying.

OP posts:
PegasusReturns · 16/02/2021 11:29

What you need to understand OP - and it seems you are starting to - is that it’s a choice. Not just between whether you’re a magic circle equity partner working 80 hours and earning well over a million or a PT government legal service lawyer on a strict 10-3, earning a fraction of that, but a choice as to how you want to live life.

Even at my busiest, when I’d do face to face meetings in five countries in three days, I accommodated sports days and recitals, exam prep and medical appointments because that was important to me.

I still volunteered in my community and had one external role. I made time for friends, exercised and cooked.

I could have worked 100 hrs a week but I chose not too. Your DH is making a choice to work. Which is OK, as I have alluded to I am a bit of a workaholic, but he needs to be honest about his drivers because at this stage in the game he doesn’t have to work the way he does.

Ancientruins · 16/02/2021 11:30

Yes I am beginning to see that, thanks Pegasus.

OP posts:
PegasusReturns · 16/02/2021 11:33

Oh I’m sorry OP I’m going to call bullshit on this:

he feels trapped and pressured by his responsibility to his clients (stakes very high if he cocks up)

He does it because he love it, thrives on it. It stimulates his mind, provides him with status and also provides an entirely legitimate way of opting out of less agreeable parts of his life.

Ancientruins · 16/02/2021 11:41

Yes, to be fair, he's totally open that he gets a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction from his work too - he has built up a lot of skill in one particular area where hands on experience counts for a lot - but I get that the two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's possible to enjoy it overall but feel stressed and pressured too surely? No work is all mitigated joy or horrible pressure, it's a mixture of both.

Just trying to keep a balanced view here and see it from every side.

OP posts:
TheWayOfTheWorld · 16/02/2021 11:47

I think the problem is, as I eluded to earlier in the thread, that this is generally going to get worse in private practice. Most of the top firms are ramping up billable hours requirements of partners and, as someone else mentioned, most of the younger lawyers have their heads screwed on and look at us and think "nah, no thanks, that lifestyle is not for me" and so they leave. This increases the work load on the partners and puts off the next cohort, so on and so forth.

The firms can come up with all their wanky word salad about mental health, work/life balance, equality yaddah yaddah but it all boils down to the short-term numbers on a spreadsheet at the end of the day.

Lurcherloves · 16/02/2021 11:48

@PegasusReturns you must have an amazing capacity and deal with stress very well, or things don’t affect you in the same way as they do others