Those of you married to a lawyer

[Ancientruins]

Does it ever get better?

He's a lovely man and he earns a good salary but I'm twenty or so years in and the work never stops. I mean never.
Not on holiday. Not during births. Not during house moves.

And although a devoted husband and father who totally gets stuck in when available, that tends to be only two half days at weekends if we are lucky. And then he is so exhausted he either forces himself to join in, falls asleep while we are watching a film, or he looks so wretched I send him to bed to catch up on sleep.

Things are much better when we are on holiday; he becomes so much happier and more relaxed although business calls still creep in here and there. And of course it takes him ten days on either side to fight through the work and then catch up again to even get to the point where he can leave the office for a few days.

It used to work well because I very much like my own company and I have a close and supportive family, but as time goes on, I am starting to wonder what's the point, why do you even need a wife, do you just expect me to sit here and wait until you are available in fifteen years when you are retired? Isn't the point to enjoy the journey along the way? When I ask him this he says "but the reason I am doing this is for you and the DC". What am I supposed to say to that?

It sounds selfish because I know he loves me and relies on me being "around" but I am getting a bit tired of being at the bottom of the priority list which appears to be: work, DC (quite rightly), dog, household necessities, life admin, wife. Except by the time he gets time to focus on me he is so tired his eyes literally glaze over when we speak. I try not to take it personally.

I'm thoroughly fed of him constantly being on his phone, or conversations, meals , evenings being interrupted by calls from clients. When we were first married it was a joke that as soon as we started a conversation , he would rush out of the door to the office, to the airport, to a client meeting. Our teens actually named him "the smoke" because that's all that's left in his trail. The joke is starting to wear a bit thin!

People assume there are monetary compensations but I am lucky enough to have my own source of income so I am not dependent on him for that.

He says he can only do his job now at this level because of all the hours and the expertise he has built up over thirty years. And I know his work is in an important field which he finds incredibly challenging, and intellectually satisfying. But it doesn't leave time for anything else, and as the years go on, there doesn't seem to be any hope that things will change before he retires, if he doesn't drop dead of a heart attack or stroke first.

I miss him

I had really hoped this would have improved 🙁. We bailed in 2007 so glad we did. Not quite as rich as we would have been not living in London but happy and here for our kids. Both of us.

@MsTSwift I went back full time after mat leave 1 and moved firms after a year as the expectations were ridiculous. I'd been there 4 years.

The next firm (City firm but I wasn't based at the City office) started off ok and I went back full time after mat leave 2 - this is the place I have just left - the first few years were manageable but the last couple were utterly shit. My DH became a SAHD when I went back after mat leave 2 (because he hated his job) so that eased the pressure a bit but gradually work became more and more of my life and I felt more and more trapped. I tried to shift my hours to be more family friendly (8-4) but more often than not I couldn't leave on time, and then the last year or so I was working all hours. I was miserable and DH and the DC were too.

@TheWayOfTheWorld agree, too many entitled twats and too much pointless admin on top of the billable hours targets.

My perception is that most of the female lawyers I know with children will adjust their hours or job roles to fit family life in better. Most of the male lawyers have a wife at home who they expect to deal with everything home and child related, whilst they earn the money. Although my first female boss at the City firm told me to get a nanny so I didn't have to deal with my children. She was shocked when I said I wanted to be there for them

@Eggsley Most of the male lawyers have a wife at home who they expect to deal with everything home and child related, whilst they earn the money.

Is bang on the fucking money. One of my (nice and decent) male partners was bemoaning lockdown last year and how his wife had said it was like being a Stepford Wife having to plan and do the shopping/cleaning/laundry etc. I replied yes and then some of us have the day job to do on top of it. He didn't reply

@TheWayOfTheWorld they just don't get it do they? I had years of that and made the point to several male colleagues that I was still doing everything at home, and was up several times a night with my then toddler.

Since DH gave up work I do have the luxury of the shopping and washing/ironing being done which has taken a huge weight off my shoulders but he certainly doesn't do everything and nor do I expect him to. We share the household jobs and childcare and work much better as a team now. When he worked full time, his expectation was that I would do everything child and house related as well as working far more hours that him. Thankfully that is in the past!

I was always amazed by how many of my male former colleagues were never home for their child's bedtime, or missed school events simply because they felt their wife was there so it was fine. There just didn't seem to be the emotional connection there. A few years ago, I had several chats with a male colleague about this and he said it just didn't cross his mind to be home for bedtime - his wife was in charge at home and he earned the money. I said it upset me if I wasn't home for bedtime, as I didn't want to miss that time with my children. I also said I'd be livid if I was his wife and was home alone all the time with two small children. He did actually start to leave the office on time a couple of days a week, so he could be home for bedtime and said he was grateful for the chats we had had about it. He left my last firm a couple of months before I did, and he went in-house.

My friend used to get the park and ride to her job. When the bus stopped the women would run to their cars. One man asked my friend once “why do the women run?”. Just didn’t get it.

I know. Men have been socialised to think their career is their primary responsibility and women have been socialised to think their kids are their primary responsibility. So men don’t compromise their career when kids come along, they simply don’t feel the need to get back for bedtime, and women do.

The depressing thing is that in families like mine, where DH works and I don’t (because it was too hard with the hours he was doing, because I was doing all the wifework, etc - the usual reasons), we are simply perpetuating the stereotypes. I worry hugely about the model I am setting for my girls 😞

@Normaigai

Commonly working to 10pm is normal. Never finishing a conversation isn't. I know people who are like this - they thrive off the buzz of bring so needed.

Exactly! And I always think what do these kind of people do or become like when it is all over 🤦‍♀️

When I was a newly qualified solicitor at a magic circle firm, a very senior associate told me (laughingly) that her 18 month old daughter had started calling the nanny "mummy". It was at that moment that I decided that no amount of money on earth could be worth that level of sacrifice and I quit a couple of years later.

I actually sort of resent it now as I moved into a totally different field and wonder if I hadn't been so put off my the working culture in the big firms whether I would have stayed in the law and carved out my own space in-house.

Who knows. But life is way too short for the kind of nonsense some firms require.

My ex was a City lawyer and I honestly felt like a very well off single parent. Of course being financially comfortable was lovely, but not at the cost of eating every meal on my own with the kids and never doing anything as a family. He was literally always working - just as you describe OP. When I complained it was ‘I just need to become a Partner’ then it was ‘I just have to deal with this client’. He now has his own business and it’s no different - it’s not the job, it’s him.

My current partner is also a professional who works really hard, but he is there for me outside of work - truly present and available - we do things together and enjoy each other’s company. It’s lovely - I feel cherished, loved, important - the contrast is like night and day.

To answer your question, no, I very much doubt it will ever get any better. But I think you know that.

@Eggsley nope they don't. I have said for years that this is lot about making concessions to "working mothers" etc, it goes much deeper and requires true societal change around men and women's roles and worth.

To be honest, I don't think society is the main problem in this case. Most of it is down to personality and values. There are men right now who work but who put their families first and do all they can to be very involved with their wives and children. For some people, ambition and status are their main values in life whereas for others it is family and less selfish things. If you've chosen to marry the former type of man, you can't be surprised at the outcome. A man who has willingfully chosen this type of legal career and to stay in it, is obviously unlikely to be an involved family man. This would have been clear from the outset so the best thing to do now is to just focus on the positive and to try to make it work, as you've been doing.

I have a close family member in the legal profession and you really have to be a certain sort of personality type and have certain values, to pursue this sort of job in the first place.

I’m a solicitor, it is very hard to stop working. I’m trying to implement things so my own workload reduces or I will leave law. It’s no way to live. My observations of colleagues is that it seems to become addictive. It is certainly out of balance and unhealthy. Very hard to stop though, it takes a lot of work to get there and would be giving up that and status and income. To do what? Very difficult to change direction especially the older you get. Not that it can’t be done it’s just daunting.
Does he want a different life? Does he ever complain about his work life balance?

@Bleepers I’m not sure if you would have been able to. My female bosses have put me off too, one had no relationship with her adult children who moved in with their father when they were teens. She didn’t visit her new grandchild for several months.
Law is all consuming I don’t think it’s the individuals but the nature of the work and the level of professional responsibility. If you work for someone else or yourself.
It’s a shame that no one tells you this before you embark on the draining experience of qualifying.

Haven’t read the whole thread but like others here I’m married to someone with exactly the same work patterns. It is a choice - it gives them their self worth and the financial benefits make them feel like they are providing the lifestyle. It’s almost an addiction especially if it’s litigation or doing deals where it does actually get exciting at times.

What has helped me deal with it is a) I used to do the same work so there is a degree of understanding and b) I don’t rely on his company, I plough my own furrow and enjoy him when we can (better now our kids are grown up)

I'm a lawyer and work reasonable hours (9 to 5/6 usually). Admittedly I'm not at a US firm or a partner, but then if a role required me to work 60 hours a week I just wouldn't do it long-term.
I don't know if others agree with me but personally one reason I feel very lucky to have gone into law is that you can make a very good living without having to work all hours. Basically I'm saying that if a lawyer wanted to cut their workload there's plenty of legal roles that are well-paid and fulfilling without being all-consuming.

There are different types of lawyer though.

I’m a lawyer in the civil service and I work normal hours. It’s obviously got its own pressures but I don’t have to work stupid hours.

Exh works for an American law firm doing a commercial area of law and works the hours you describe. I couldn’t be doing with that though.

When it was at its worst (magic circle international corporate work) I remember mum in tears saying “I didn’t bring you into the world to work like this” 🙁. It’s not healthy mentally or physically

I do think it's often a personality type but law can be demanding although I think it's changing.
My dad was a banker & his job came before my mum so eventually they separated as it was always going to change next yr.

I’m a lawyer and generally speaking we’re a type.

As I’ve got more experienced and could work less I’ve taken on other roles: trustee and NED positions.

A couple of years ago I gave up work completely because I sold a company and didn’t need to work. I was back in a job within a year.

The truth is I thrive on the stress and I love being busy.

You need to talk to your DH but I wouldn’t hold much hope of lasting change.

@Lurcherloves thank you for replying. I think a decade after leaving the law I now look at my peers who stayed (and are now earning about 1,000x more than me) and wonder, "what if?" But it's taken nearly 10 years to get over the stress and the unhappiness of the 5 years I spent in city law. It's definitely not for everyone, that's for sure.

@Bleepers it’s really not worth your quality of life or health though is it? Do you mind if I ask what work you do now? I’m thinking of alternatives, I have taught at colleges in the past but I’m not sure I want to do that again

I left transactional work in a city law firm because the partners seemed to be more stressed and even more at the beck and call of unreasonable clients than the junior associates. I remember looking at the parter leading a transaction I was working on and realised I had seen more of DH that month than he had of his wife and 4 kids. It just seemed like as I got promoted, the worse the conditions would get. I moved into finance and love it, the more senior I get the more I can delegate and run a team rather than doing it all myself! Now I instruct the lawyers (and I am never unreasonable!!)

Still reading! Thank you very much for all of these different perspectives.

Xiaoxiong I know this sounds ridiculous, but last week the average conversation per day between dh and myself averaged out at 8.3 minutes a day which was pretty good because he joined us for two meals; it's usually something like 4.6! (Yes I timed them.)

That is very honest Pegasusreturns

I worry about dh's health all the time MsTSwift

My dad was a banker & his job came before my mum so eventually they separated as it was always going to change next yr.
Brownet I had a long (relative term!) conversation with dh yesterday and apparently everything will change in seven years' time. The question is whether I can hang in there for that long I suppose.

Either way I am definitely going to plough my own furrow from now on VanCleefArpels

Thank you Eggsley and everyone else. And to everyone who is in a similar situation.

My dad is retired now & somehow still busier than me (who works with young dc!) 😆

My dad was actually a pretty good dad because when he was there he was very hands on but my mum definitely gave up an awful lot to facilitate him & he was selfish. I specifically didn't go into a similar career because I'm a similar personality to him and I didn't want to marry someone who was like him in that regard either as I didn't want to have to park my goals.

7 yrs is a long time. Is that retirement or scaling back?

Having said that lockdown & sickness has meant DH boundaries have blurred & he's done some crazy hours. I hate it though & get pissed off.

At least in the 80s & 90s when my dad left the office that was it because you couldn't do stuff on your phone.