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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Change of Name instead of getting Married.

104 replies

dantiasmith · 06/02/2021 15:30

Hi ladies. We had to postpone our wedding last year due to COVID. I was so upset but we moved it a year so we could reassess the situation... however on Thursday we found out our venue has gone under and we’ve lost thousands of pounds. From viewing the liquidators information they company doesn’t have enough money so we hoping we pod for most things on credit card. We have decided we are gonna get married now and will see what the future brings. Has anyone changed their name to their partners? He’s not adverse to it at all. Which is great. Would you wear your wedding bands if the bride changed her name? Xxx

OP posts:
mindutopia · 07/02/2021 09:57

I do know someone who sort of did this. Not change her name, but she and her partner have now had three ‘commitment ceremonies’. Each one increasingly more like a wedding. Last one she wore a white wedding dress and there was a big reception for 60 guests after. He won’t marry her (for financial reasons I think, he has some properties and even though they are both working professionals, he doesn’t like the idea of marital assets). She keeps hoping after each increasingly more wedding like ceremony that she’ll feel married, but I think it’s always a let down.

I think if you want to be married, go get married. Honestly, I had a big proper traditional wedding and it was lovely and all but I wouldn’t have delayed the marriage to be able to have a wedding. I never even think about my wedding now. It was just a day. It’s been the marriage bit that’s been important and wonderful.

Sharww · 07/02/2021 10:09

You’re already ‘acting’ married as you live together and presumably share a life together. Changing names or wearing rings are superficial things and have no bearing on anything. I admit, if I knew someone who did that without being married I’d think it was weird and a bit desperate like one was secretly avoiding marriage and the other was debasing themselves trying to beg for some scraps like ‘acting married’.

Get married, it’s really not difficult, it doesn’t have to be stressful at all. We spent about half an hour planning ours and it was less than £400, could have been done cheaper. I’d rather marry and not bother with names and rings than the rigmarole you’re on about.

poblwcymru · 07/02/2021 10:15

No, I wouldn't do this.

Either go to the registry office, get married in a quick legal ceremony and have a big do in a couple of years or don't.

Please don't pretend you're married or assume that the appearance of marriage gives you any legal protection in the event of a split particularly if you have children or are thinking having them soon.

Theseedsoflife · 07/02/2021 10:19

If marriage is important, I would get married at the registry office and have a party when you can.

However, I am considering changing my name to the same as my DP (well double barrel with my exhs name) because I have children with my married (exhs) name and we are planning another. I don’t want to get married for a very long time and I also don’t want a different name from my children so I thought best to change it to include both names so no it’s not odd.

I also occasionally wear a wedding ring when I’m away on a girls weekend to stop being approached by drunken men

Dixiechickonhols · 07/02/2021 10:45

It’s just bizarre. If you pretend now what are you going to say if you get married in 2 years? Honestly it’s not normal and I’d think someone was very odd for having done it. Married is a legal status not a white dress and a party. Want to get married get married now - you can have a party later if you like.

Happyone8 · 07/02/2021 10:45

I don’t understand why you would want to seem married but not be married - can you clarify op ? Is it because you want to get married in a big ceremony with all your family and friends or something? Could you get married in a registry office and still do a blessing or renewal of your vows at a later date instead ?
I knew someone who changed their name but weren’t even engaged - it seemed really odd. As an outsider it made me think her partner didn’t really want to get married to her . So If you want to act married for others opinion , they may think it’s odd if they find out you aren’t legally married .

DicklessWonder · 07/02/2021 10:51

@Theseedsoflife

If marriage is important, I would get married at the registry office and have a party when you can.

However, I am considering changing my name to the same as my DP (well double barrel with my exhs name) because I have children with my married (exhs) name and we are planning another. I don’t want to get married for a very long time and I also don’t want a different name from my children so I thought best to change it to include both names so no it’s not odd.

I also occasionally wear a wedding ring when I’m away on a girls weekend to stop being approached by drunken men

Presumably your partner hasn’t considered for a millisecond changing his name to yours.........

(And it is your name, which happens now to be the same as your ex’s. Or do you think women shouldn’t ever feel that they own their names and are just borrowing them from men?)

See? Sexism.

ArchbishopOfBanterbury · 07/02/2021 11:29

So sorry to read this. What a hassle, after everything!

There's not much advantage to changing your name, without the rest of it. Registry office is about twice the price of deed poll but gives you a lot more legal protection.

You can do a "proper wedding" with vows and a ceremony with a crowd of friends and relatives in the future.

SimonJT · 07/02/2021 12:56

There isn’t really an advantage in changing your name.

Our wedding likely won’t go ahead (end of April), whatever happens we will be wearing our wedding outfits, saying our vows and exchanging rings on that day. That date will also be the anniversary we celebrate no matter when the bit of paper is signed.

ChicoryInACoffeeJar · 07/02/2021 13:14

Look, unless you are hugely richer than he is, book a registry office wedding, get it done - if you want a big fancy WEDDING wedding then just.don't.tell.anybody about the registry office thing - bear in mind it's not super unusual for the "big, real" wedding to be some days after the legal registry office do, if you have a Hindu/Muslim/humanist ceremony, anyway.

ChicoryInACoffeeJar · 07/02/2021 13:14

Anybody about sorry

Theseedsoflife · 07/02/2021 13:39

@DicklessWonder when we discussed it he did say he could also change his name so we have the same doubles name but seeing as I’m only keeping the same name as my exh whilst my children are at school then I don’t want him to change his.

I want to get married once my children are off leaving home and doing their own thing, he is happy to get married sooner but I don’t want to.
I am just borrowing my exh’s name for now until I feel I want to change from the same name as my children.
It in no way defines me, a name doesn’t make me who I am but it does mean something to my children.
I also still use Mrs, not sure why, I just like it and no one need to know my marital status. I didn’t want to keep changing my title

bigbird1969 · 07/02/2021 15:22

Theseedsoflife you wouldn’t have to keep changing your title if you simply kept your own name and gave it to your kids. Your kids didn’t have to take in there fathers name.

poppyzbrite4 · 07/02/2021 15:37

[quote Theseedsoflife]@DicklessWonder when we discussed it he did say he could also change his name so we have the same doubles name but seeing as I’m only keeping the same name as my exh whilst my children are at school then I don’t want him to change his.

I want to get married once my children are off leaving home and doing their own thing, he is happy to get married sooner but I don’t want to.
I am just borrowing my exh’s name for now until I feel I want to change from the same name as my children.
It in no way defines me, a name doesn’t make me who I am but it does mean something to my children.
I also still use Mrs, not sure why, I just like it and no one need to know my marital status. I didn’t want to keep changing my title[/quote]
Women used to take their husband's name upon marriage because when they married, they became their husband's and lost all rights as an individual. They had no rights to their own children or property, it went to their husband and if they were widowed, their eldest son or relative.

When a father walks his daughter down the aisle, he is walking his property to her new owner. It's why the man traditionally asks her father for her hand because he was legally her owner. Laws have changed but these traditions are hangovers from the Laws of Coverture, which was common law for hundreds of years in the UK and the colonies.

People don't know your marital status if you refer to yourself as Ms. Ms can apply to both an unmarried or married woman. You have no legal obligation to change your name when you marry, that's entirely up to you.

florascotia2 · 07/02/2021 15:39

otter please what is your evidence for saying that it was common for women to change their name but not be married? I'm not being snarky - I am genuinely interested.

In England, it has NEVER been the law that a woman has to change her name on marriage, let alone if she lives with someone and is not married to them. And there's never been such a thing as 'common law wife', so why would she? Changing a surname on marriage has always a matter of choice and custom and that has varied over the centuries; surnames were not widely used, anyway, until the later middle ages. Before then, married women were legally assumed not to have a surname at all.

Taking a husband's name on marriage began to become more common after around 1600 www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/12/im-getting-married-should-i-change-my-surname. By the 18th and 19th cent, however, some women were challenging that, eg Mary Wollestonecraft.

Women with money or status (of any kind) have often kept their name or title on marriage, from the middle ages onwards. Think of queens, for example (Anne of Cleves; Anne Boleyn), or heiresses.

In Scotland, married women traditionally did not change their name.
www.jstor.org/stable/26610847?seq=1
And still today, in some Scottish legal documents, you find the formula: Mary MacGregor, Mrs John Smith...

poppyzbrite4 · 07/02/2021 15:51

@florascotia2

otter please what is your evidence for saying that it was common for women to change their name but not be married? I'm not being snarky - I am genuinely interested.

In England, it has NEVER been the law that a woman has to change her name on marriage, let alone if she lives with someone and is not married to them. And there's never been such a thing as 'common law wife', so why would she? Changing a surname on marriage has always a matter of choice and custom and that has varied over the centuries; surnames were not widely used, anyway, until the later middle ages. Before then, married women were legally assumed not to have a surname at all.

Taking a husband's name on marriage began to become more common after around 1600 www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/12/im-getting-married-should-i-change-my-surname. By the 18th and 19th cent, however, some women were challenging that, eg Mary Wollestonecraft.

Women with money or status (of any kind) have often kept their name or title on marriage, from the middle ages onwards. Think of queens, for example (Anne of Cleves; Anne Boleyn), or heiresses.

In Scotland, married women traditionally did not change their name.
www.jstor.org/stable/26610847?seq=1
And still today, in some Scottish legal documents, you find the formula: Mary MacGregor, Mrs John Smith...

In England a woman became what is called a feme covert (covered woman) when she married. This did not apply to the Queen. Upon marriage, husband and wife became one person or 'unity of person' which was the husband. They became one person under the law.
JudgeRindersMinder · 07/02/2021 15:52

Wearing a ring and changing your name doesn’t make you married, in the same way that me not wearing my wedding ring doesn’t make me unmarried.
Just why?

KirstenBlest · 07/02/2021 15:53

Get him to change his surname to yours.

Wiredforsound · 07/02/2021 16:26

So essentially you’d still be two single people play acting at being married? Thats like me saying I’m the Queen because I changed my name to The Queen and put my tiara on to go to Lidl.

Happyone8 · 07/02/2021 16:45

@Wiredforsound

So essentially you’d still be two single people play acting at being married? Thats like me saying I’m the Queen because I changed my name to The Queen and put my tiara on to go to Lidl.
This made me laugh 😂
florascotia2 · 07/02/2021 16:45

poppy I know all that, and you are correct, but naming patterns and the law did not always coincide. Quite a few heiresses, from medieval times to 18th/19th cent, didn't change names. And sometimes men changed their name to their wealthier wife's family name; it could be a condition of inheritance for future children, or might be because the wife's family had higher social status - Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway, for example.

As I'm sure you know, the femme couvert doctrine was most clearly set out by Bracton (13th cent) but at that time a lot of ordinary women did not have surnames. They usually appear in documents as eg Anne, wife of Joe Bloggs.

And even by around 1600, when documents do show that married women were taking their husband's names, the doctrine of coverture was not universally followed.

I'm sorry to quote Wikipedia but it is a useful summary of some recent work on married women in the middle ages/early modern era:

^While it was once assumed that married women had little or no access to legal recourse, as a result of coverture, historians have more recently complicated our knowledge of coverture in the Middle Ages through various studies of married women's legal status across different courts and jurisdictions.[5] Collectively, many of these studies have argued that 'there has been a tendency to overplay the extent to which coverture applied', as legal records reveal that married women could possess rights over property, could take part in business transactions, and interact with the courts.[6] In medieval post-conquest Wales, it has been suggested that coverture only applied in certain situations. Married women were responsible for their own actions in criminal presentments and defamation, but their husbands represented them in litigation for abduction and in interpersonal pleas.[7]

The extent of coverture in medieval England has also been qualified by the existence of femme sole customs that existed in some medieval English towns. .....However, it is unclear how many women took up this status, the extent to which it was legally enforced, or whether the legal and commercial independence it offered were advantageous...^

This article below is very interesting, and shows how real life could be less clear-cut than law textbooks. (And interestingly, the writer argues that the existence of femme sole status has been exaggerated by feminist historians who relied on those lawbooks.) It contains documentary examples of both old style and new style names . Plus a (wealthy) singlewoman with an occupational name (Baxter) that might have been her trade, perhaps? Or perhaps her own name?
legalhistorymiscellany.com/2019/02/08/femme-sole-status-a-failed-feminist-dream/

poppyzbrite4 · 07/02/2021 17:09

[quote florascotia2]poppy I know all that, and you are correct, but naming patterns and the law did not always coincide. Quite a few heiresses, from medieval times to 18th/19th cent, didn't change names. And sometimes men changed their name to their wealthier wife's family name; it could be a condition of inheritance for future children, or might be because the wife's family had higher social status - Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway, for example.

As I'm sure you know, the femme couvert doctrine was most clearly set out by Bracton (13th cent) but at that time a lot of ordinary women did not have surnames. They usually appear in documents as eg Anne, wife of Joe Bloggs.

And even by around 1600, when documents do show that married women were taking their husband's names, the doctrine of coverture was not universally followed.

I'm sorry to quote Wikipedia but it is a useful summary of some recent work on married women in the middle ages/early modern era:

^While it was once assumed that married women had little or no access to legal recourse, as a result of coverture, historians have more recently complicated our knowledge of coverture in the Middle Ages through various studies of married women's legal status across different courts and jurisdictions.[5] Collectively, many of these studies have argued that 'there has been a tendency to overplay the extent to which coverture applied', as legal records reveal that married women could possess rights over property, could take part in business transactions, and interact with the courts.[6] In medieval post-conquest Wales, it has been suggested that coverture only applied in certain situations. Married women were responsible for their own actions in criminal presentments and defamation, but their husbands represented them in litigation for abduction and in interpersonal pleas.[7]

The extent of coverture in medieval England has also been qualified by the existence of femme sole customs that existed in some medieval English towns. .....However, it is unclear how many women took up this status, the extent to which it was legally enforced, or whether the legal and commercial independence it offered were advantageous...^

This article below is very interesting, and shows how real life could be less clear-cut than law textbooks. (And interestingly, the writer argues that the existence of femme sole status has been exaggerated by feminist historians who relied on those lawbooks.) It contains documentary examples of both old style and new style names . Plus a (wealthy) singlewoman with an occupational name (Baxter) that might have been her trade, perhaps? Or perhaps her own name?
legalhistorymiscellany.com/2019/02/08/femme-sole-status-a-failed-feminist-dream/[/quote]
My point being, that a woman had no need to change her name as it was changed for her when she married: Mrs John Smith for example. Legally, it didn't matter as her children would have her husband's name. In England and Wales, mothers aren't included on marriage certificates. When a woman married, she in effect, gave up her family and moved into her husband's.

Some of these laws and traditions, wouldn't have applied to the aristocracy but marriages were often arranged for them. You must be aware of the royal family marrying in order to draw up peace agreements with other countries/royal families. These were arranged marriages.

Hoppinggreen · 07/02/2021 17:19

Wearing a ring and/or changing your name won’t give you the legal protection a marriage will
Bit pointless really

florascotia2 · 07/02/2021 18:30

poppy Arranged marriages existed of course but they were neither here nor there when it came to names.
And married women's names honestly were not automatically 'changed for them'. By whom, exactly? By what mechanism. The actual documents show a range of real life practices.
The prescriptive father's name = children's name is surely a product of the mid 19th cent state registration of births, marriages and deaths? Which also helped to set male surnames in stone.
Look, you and I obviously care about this topic. We are not enemies. We should be collaborating. But the more actual real life documents we read, the more they show us - just like today - that the rules say one thing, actual lives say another.
I am sure, for example, that many women in the past found themselves in similar situations to the OP's . So many people here on Mumsnet still seem to feel that cohabitation gives them certain rights. They are so, so wrong. At leat the OP has had the very, very good sense to enquire...

Sharww · 07/02/2021 21:48

People don't know your marital status if you refer to yourself as Ms. Ms can apply to both an unmarried or married woman. You have no legal obligation to change your name when you marry, that's entirely up to you.

@poppyzbrite4 while I’m all for women using whichever title they feel best suits them, there is definitely a perception currently that someone using Ms is unmarried but wanting to conceal the fact. It’s a shame, I think we need a shakeup of title customs really as the Miss/Mrs thing is problematic but I don’t think many women feel comfortable with Ms due to the above connotations. I’m sure someone will be along to say they’ve never heard of such a thing but in my experience ever since childhood it’s been a subtle but known assumption.

@florascotia2 I’ve loved your contribution to this thread and your way of communicating/attitude ❤️