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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Sharing the burden with a spouse

122 replies

fatherofdragons · 01/02/2021 03:09

I am hoping that people can give me some advice about conflict I am having with my DW over sharing housework.

Married just over 10 years. Two children 8 and 7. I work in City of London. Wife worked in City but gave up work after first child was born (was contracting so just did not go back - her choice). Live in decent-sized family house in Zone 3 since older child was six months. Last year wife retrained as a teacher and started full time job last September.

We have a lot of conflict over housework. During the time I was working and my wife was a SAHW she did not do so much housework. I would end up doing quite a bit on the weekend. We always had a cleaner for 3 hours a week and eventually I ended up paying for her to come for another 2 hours on a Friday so the place would be clean and tidy for the weekend. For context I was and am working 70-75 hour weeks in a City job with a lot of responsibility and have been the sole breadwinner and still earn 85-90% of our aggregate take home pay.

Before September we agreed that we would share housework equally. After giving our cleaner three months' notice we reduced her hours back to 3 hours a week. We have an after school nanny four days a week until 6.30 p.m. Because of Covid I have been working exclusively from home except for a couple of weeks in September when I was in the office for part of the week. My wife leaves for work before the children get up in the morning and gets home about 7 p.m.

The first issue is that I feel I am picking up all the housework and when I try to address this with my wife she just shouts at me.

  • I do 90% of the clothes washing This is not so difficult when I'm working from home but it does involve time running around and in winter the kids get muddy and stuff needs to get scrubbed before it can go in the wash. And stuff needs to be hung up to dry, taken down, folded, etc. Every week my wife says she will do some of the clothes washing at the weekend and every week she does nothing and I end up having do deal with it.
  • I deal with the children in the morning, making sure they get dressed, eat breakfast, brush teeth, get them to do Kumon and piano practice before school, make them packed lunch, bring them to school (keyworker children even though only one keyworker parent - please don't judge). I then come home and tidy up the kitchen a bit. Every three days or so I stop at the supermarket on the way home and pick up food.
  • In the evening I cook the dinner for everyone (unless leftovers from the previous day). This can take more or less time depending on what it is. I also make sure everything is washed up afterwards. Most days I get the girls to have a bath and get dressed for bed. Sometimes my wife will do that if she is home but not always even if she is.
  • I deal with the majority of the household bills and childrens' activities - booking them, paying for them, etc., although my wife also deals with some. Other stuff that comes up is always what I deal with, e.g. unblocking drain when it flooded at the weekend, changing lightbulbs, changing sheets, etc.

My wife has never mopped a floor in our house or dust anything. She vaccums very rarely. For example, when our cleaner is not coming during lockdown (I am still paying her so please don't judge) my wife vacuums maybe once for every ten times that I do.

Despite all that it is my wife who complains that I do not do more rather than me complaining that she does not. She will say that I clean but I do not tidy. She will say that whatever I am doing is not the priority and I should be doing something else. She will tell me not to do some chore because she is going to do it but then she does not and I end up doing it later that day or the next day. She shouts at me that the children have messed up the house and it is my fault. Honestly, I am one of these people who just tidy as I go - I go into the childrens' bedroom and pick up clothes, sort them out, pick up hangers, books, etc. I am also pretty good at getting them to tidy up after themselves. Before Christmas the two children spent half a day tidying up boxes of lego and one of them spent several hours sorting out and fitting into a cupboard all of their boardgames. My wife will shout at me or at the children that they have made a mess but she cannot work with them to get them to help clean it up and when I suggest that she does she says that they do it for me but they don't do it for her because she is the mother.

At any point over the weekend when my wife does any housework at all she will often start shouting at me, particularly if I am not also doing some sort of housework at the same time. It's like she resents having to do anything.

She will also blow up at me out of nowhere over things that are not done. In particular she shouts at me about the fact that most of our house is still unrenovated (but habitable). When we moved in we renovated about half of it. She was at home with a nine month old at the time and the original intention was that she would mostly deal with it. However, I ended up doing 90% of the work dealing with it - we were not doing anything structural and were engaging all the contractors directly - electrician, heating engineer, decorators, floorer, and buying all the fittings ourselves. I was up for a promotion that year and ended up not getting it because for months I was barely able to keep up at work while dealing with all of this at home.

Renovating the rest of the house involves quite a bit of structural work (we will have to move out for at least several months) and I simply don't have the bandwidth to deal with it on my own. After several years we got planning permission last autumn. Even for the planning permission I had to deal with everything. My wife would just say "we're paying for the architect, let him deal with it" but those of you who have done this sort of thing will know that it does not work like that, unless you have deep pockets and are happy to empty them. We are doing a kitchen extension and one obvious issue is that we want it to extend as much as, but no more than, we need it to, and that involves planning the kitchen - what will be in it, how big it will be etc. How far out the extension would be was one of the very few things that we needed to settle in advance of getting planning permission. I had to do it all myself. I remember one night asking my wife if she would measure up one of the existing rooms so that we could factor that in and she refused to do so. She would complain about us doing it late at night but she was a full time SAHM at the time and I was working 12-14 hour days.

When I would confront her and say "You are getting 8 hours of sleep, I am getting 4 hours of sleep. Why are you shouting at me about planning the work on the house?" she would say things like she needs more sleep than me and she cannot plan the work on the house as I am the one who earns the money (I see plenty of families in our neighbourhood where the wife is a SAHM who single-handedly deals with their home renovations). She's completely passive about the whole thing.

I am at my wits end with this because she's now f me out of it every couple of days and in front of the children. I would rather she was just honest with me and herself and say that she does not like doing housework and doesn't want to do housework. It's not that she is not hardworking - she works very hard at her current job and worked hard at previous jobs too. However, in my opinion from seeing with her own family she takes for granted those close to her. I cannot keep doing what I am doing now, never mind deal with a house renovation on my own. I'm getting more and more resentful of her and bitter towards her and how she treats me.

Do any of you have any thoughts on what I can do to deal with this? I have thought about separating and divorcing but I don't see how that would make things any better. I feel that the children are happier now than when my wife was a SAHM and they barely saw me Monday to Friday.

OP posts:
rookiemere · 01/02/2021 08:48

There was a poster a few years ago complaining that his DW - with two very young DCs - wasn't spending enough of her time on house renovations and ignored the fact that she was looking after the DCs. I do wonder if it's the same poster, seems to be quite a lot pf similarities.

Iwonder08 · 01/02/2021 09:00

OP, you know what they say.. If the problem can be solved with money then it is not a problem, it is an expense.
You need a cleaner twice a week and more childcare.
All the above is considering you believe your wife has some redeemable features. From your description it is not immediately obvious if she does.
If she is good for you in every other area of life apart from the household maintenance I would do the above.
But generally speaking your wife is taking a piss. It is absolutely ridiculous that the person who earns 90%of the family money is doing all the housework. Why is she working 12h/day? Sounds like the whole point of leaving the city was to have more time to spend with the family.. And she is doing exactly the opposite..
One weekend, after the kids are in bed, pour her a glass of wine and calmly discuss her view on how she plans to sustain this long term.

Bellofbelfastcity · 01/02/2021 09:07

Newly qualified teacher salary is around 26/27k.

If the op earns 90% of the money then that salary is 10%.

So the op earns 260/270k.

Get a fucking cleaner. Pay someone to renovate the rickle of a house they’ve been living in for SEVEN years or so.

Or move.

With that income they have options.

CupOfTeaAlonePlease · 01/02/2021 09:09

I agree with @Chiccie OP.

What are you doing to yourselves? You've set yourselves up for failure by assembling hurdles for each other all throughout your family life.

You earn more than 5 x the wage of a full time teacher? HIRE Help, and move on.

It's a hell of a lot cheaper than a divorce.

A few other things:

Your kids don't need that many extra curriculars, calm your farm. I promise they'll benefit more from having happy relaxed parents in a stable marriage than they will from piano lessons and Kumon.

Move to a renovated house or a new build- you are not the renovating type.

Stop expecting your wife to change! Accept her. Your wife hates housework (but wants a clean house). Is she otherwise a decent person? Focus on that, not her shortcomings.

Your wife is teaching full time during a pandemic- she is going through something traumatic and scary and important. Please support her! I'm not surprised she's stressed and snapping and not inclined to spend her evenings measuring cabinetry for you.

And yeah, your vibe about her being a SAHM is ugly and uncool. Show some more respect.

SinkGirl · 01/02/2021 09:15

I think if your wife were to post from her perspective then this probably stems from the early years of you having children.

You say it was her choice to give up her job, but her doing so enabled you to continue working up to 14 hours a day. Which means five days a week, you weren’t there for basically any of your childrens’ waking hours and she was the one responsible for all parenting. You seem to think that this wasn’t work, and you mention missing out on a promotion, but what hit would your career have taken if she had also gone back to work and you had to share the childcare?

You have two children very close in age - I have twins so have some idea of what that is like. If my DH had worked like you I would have been on my knees and if he had then also expected to do all the housework and oversee a house renovation, while living his life basically as he did before children, I would probably have left.

As it is, my DH has always understood that when he is working, I am also working taking care of the children. Anything else I can get done is a bonus, but mostly we do everything else between us evenings and weekends. We’ve had to let a lot slip, the house is never as clean or tidy as either of us would like, but we each appreciate what the other does.

You talk as though all of the time you are working is free time, but I wonder if you ever spent a few weeks doing all the waking hours childcare while she was out / away?

In a good relationship you should be able to sit down and acknowledge the things both of you do, and the things you are struggling with. You obviously earn a lot, why aren’t you outsourcing more?

She obviously shouldn’t be shouting or getting angry with you. It seems like you both are resentful and can’t see things from the other’s perspective. She’s obviously wrong for reacting this way, but it’s clear just from reading your post how this may have developed but you don’t seem able to see it.

Perhaps you need some marriage counselling.

ICanTuckMyBoobsInMyPockets · 01/02/2021 09:21

TLDR

Get the cleaner back to more hours.

Jobsharenightmare · 01/02/2021 09:48

Some serious projection on here
The fact that she’s constantly shouting at you is awful bordering on abuse. If it were the other way round MN would be up in arms.
Someone constantly shouting about what you are or aren’t doing in the house means you’re always on edge, and then end up reaching out somewhere like here.

^ completely agree

No one would insuate a wife had brought it all on herself and blame her for being verbally abused like this for not doing enough by her husband's standards.

SnuggyBuggy · 01/02/2021 09:49

Forgive me if I've got this wrong but are you the sort of person who takes a pride in doing things in a complicated and thorough way? Your set up sounds very complex, most working parents do big online food shops for example and take advantage of conveniences like dryers and having a cleaner if they can.

Are you reluctant to delegate? When DW does do housework is it to your standard? Could DW resent how long these house renovations are taking?

Not trying to accuse you just some suggestions.

Pyewhacket · 01/02/2021 10:00

What are you getting out of this relationship ?. Personally I'd be talking to a solicitor and working on my exit plan.

CupOfTeaAlonePlease · 01/02/2021 10:05

OP I suggest you calculate what your hourly rate is.

Is it more than a cleaner?
More than a laundry service?
More than a meal service?
More than a nanny?

Outsource everything you don't enjoy and free yourself up to earn more or just enjoy your life.

It's bizarre to me that someone who earns what you do is spending his free time hunched over a sink scrubbing laundry and resenting his wife.

Supersimkin2 · 01/02/2021 10:15

During the task list creation, make sure you keep as many DC jobs as possible. Hire and manage the cleaners etc yourself.

Your wife sounds like one of those people who just doesn't do housework. They're commoner than you think. They don't change.

Tell her you're not her mother and not responsible for the background in which she was raised.

VegemiteIsToasty · 01/02/2021 10:32

OP no one wants to read a post that long. Whatever your professional job is you should be able to read the room, ie edit out by at least 2/3rds. Unless you’re in law, of course.

Essentially from a skim read it sounds like you’re very wealthy, but too tight to be paying for help. Pay for help.

Namechange200121 · 01/02/2021 10:55

I actually feel for you! I wish my DP did more (anything!!!) I’d gladly swap him for you even just one day a week lol - if this post was the other way round and it was a woman saying her husband did sweet FA everyone would be jumping on the bandwagon saying he’s a lazy, disrespectful man child and you should LTB! But now she is working full time and a long day and you can afford help, then definitely get some wherever you can - otherwise you will, if not already, become incredibly resentful of her

Respectabitch · 01/02/2021 10:56

I agree with some of the very good advice you've had about this stemming from resentment of the way you treated her being a SAHM, that you've made your lives unnecessarily difficult and stressful, and that your problem is solvable with money and cooperation.

Would you have been happy, productive, and fulfilled at home all day on your own with two very young children, and expected to renovate the house to boot? NB, you do not get to answer this question unless you have actually spent at least 14 hours looking after both children by yourself. If you wouldn't, why would you think she would be? It doesn't exactly surprise me that somebody who had a City career previously didn't thrive on endless trips to the park and washing up. Neither of you want to do the housework, although you have unrealistically high standards for it it seems, so chuck money at having someone else do it and move on.

Plussizejumpsuit · 01/02/2021 10:56

To me it seems there are two strands to this problem. Sorting out the practical issues and sorting out the resentment /emotional issues.

In terms of practical stuff. You're basically rich if you're earning 10x a teachers salary. So you could buy in a lot more help. For example a house keeper, meal prep service or hello fresh type thing.

We bought a house which didn't need tons of structural stuff, but needed a new bathroom, celling and decorating throughout. It was a lot of work. I wouldn't buy a house needing work again. So I really get what you mean about bandwidth to project manage the work. So can you get a project manager? Or move to a fully finished house.

In terms of the emotional side. There's way too much shouting going on for a start. What happens when you sit down to discuss this? How is your relationship outside of this? Neither of you seem happy. Could you try mediation or counselling? Is she depressed? Are you not telling us things like you're actually a bully? I say this because it is kind of impossible to know why somone else is behaving how they are without knowing them.

fatherofdragons · 01/02/2021 13:15

Thanks for the responses, especially to Craftycorvid who I think got this spot on and expressed things much better than I could. Also thanks to Plussizejumpsuit about the house work.

I respond to some of the assumptions being made:

  • How I treated my wife as a SAHM: It was my wife's choice to be a SAHM. I did not push it on her in any way. After over a decade working in the City she was very happy not to go back to it. Was I at work pretty much all the time Monday to Friday, yes, that is true, but those of you who know what these sorts of City jobs are like you will be aware that is how it is, and my wife had been there herself doing those hours previously so it was no surprise to her. I did nighttime feeds, went to 24 hour supermarket on way home after midnight, would put washing on when I got in at 1 a.m. I do wonder whether commenters saying how hard it is being a SAHM of two children is have experience of other roles that can also be far from easy.
  • Whether it is me or my wife that is the one with the crazy high standards. It's not me who is shouting at my wife that the children have left their things in a mess. It's not me complaining to my wife that the house is not renovated. I just get one with stuff and try to improve things incrementally.
  • Suggestion to just throw money at this. We live in London, domestic service providers quite reasonably charge reasonable amounts and we are already paying quite a bit between an after school nanny for 3.5 hours four days a week, a cleaner for 3 hours a week, piano tuition and a couple of online tutors for a couple of hours a week each (the tutors are not tutoring school subjects). My wife complains about the amount we are spending. It was her who said the after school nanny should only do 4 days a week and the cleaner cut back to 3 hours a week.

Perhaps the best illustration of this is that my wife has started to complain about what the after school nanny is charging us. (I think what we pay her is very reasonable for area and quality of care) If the after school nanny is there when my wife comes home my wife might speak with her for half an hour or more and now my wife has realised that this time is being charged for, which frankly is what I would expect. My wife wanted to send a message to the nanny about this and I said that all she has to do is end the conversation and that from the nanny's point of view she is less in a position to cut the conversation than my wife is.

  • Going to the supermarket about every three days. Do online shops and I am taking slots from those who are vulnerable and need them. Go to the supermarket myself and I am spreading Covid. Can't win either way! I do online shops but more for long-life and/or heavy stuff (we don't have a car) rather than every week. I cannot carry home a whole week's worth of shopping for our family of four just going once a week and I think it's usual for people to get fresh bread (our supermarket has a bakery) and milk etc. more often than once a week. The supermarket is more a Tesco Metro type supermarket on a local high street on the way between our house and school.
  • The comment about children doing their kumon and piano before school clearly raised some people's hackles. That's our life. It was my wife who wanted them to do kumon and piano (and other stuff also).

Again, thanks everyone for the responses. Apart from this issue my wife and I have a pretty good relationship. We have similar values/outlook and similar views re raising children, etc. For people in their forties who work long hours and have two children we have a decent physical relationship.

OP posts:
PicsInRed · 01/02/2021 13:29

How are the nanny and cleaner paid for? By you or 50/50?

fatherofdragons · 01/02/2021 13:40

In terms of paying, we run separate accounts and joint accounts but each of us has visibility on all of them and its all family money. Payment to the nanny comes out of joint account. Payment to cleaner is in cash so I pay as I am the one here.

OP posts:
Houseworkavoider · 01/02/2021 13:41

Honestly, up the hours for you cleaner.
This is unsustainable and exhausting!
The resentment is starting to set into your marriage and your Dc will feel it.

SinkGirl · 01/02/2021 13:46

I do wonder whether commenters saying how hard it is being a SAHM of two children is have experience of other roles that can also be far from easy.

Wow. If you’re this patronising to your wife I think we may have identified the problem.

Yes, many of us had very busy careers prior to children. Some go back to them but most can’t, especially when their husband is working like he always has. You are only able to do that because your wife facilitates it.

The irony in your comment is that you clearly have bugger all idea of what it’s like to be in charge of two small children day in, day out whereas your wife has experienced both. So perhaps if she has found it difficult compared to a career in the city, retraining as a parent or starting in teaching, this should make give you an idea of what it’s like.

Sounds like not much has changed in your life in terms of working at least while everything has changed for her, and you seem completely unaware of why this might cause resentment.

SnuggyBuggy · 01/02/2021 13:47

Be honest, are the renovations ever going to be completed?

Respectabitch · 01/02/2021 13:49

I'm sure your wife was happy not to go back to the City, or rather saw that family life was basically not sustainable with two FT City jobs. That doesn't mean she made a happy SAHM. There is a vast gulf between the two. If she liked being a SAHM I really doubt she would have gone to the trouble of retraining in another full-on, long hours job.

Bottom line, if the two of you both want to do busy FT jobs and have kids and high standards and also sleep occasionally, then you absolutely have to throw money at the stuff you don't enjoy and you have to agree on that as a strategy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and if you are indeed earning well into six figures and don't run a car then the money should be there, unless you are paying the mortgage on a mansion. I also have two DC and a London mortgage and a nanny so I know exactly what a good one is paid.

PicsInRed · 01/02/2021 13:51

@fatherofdragons

In terms of paying, we run separate accounts and joint accounts but each of us has visibility on all of them and its all family money. Payment to the nanny comes out of joint account. Payment to cleaner is in cash so I pay as I am the one here.
What percentage of joint bills does she pay? Do you each contribute 50/50 to the joint account?

It's not family money if she doesn't have full spending access to it.

If you're paying the cleaner from your money, just up the hours. 🤷‍♀️

Respectabitch · 01/02/2021 13:52

@SinkGirl

I do wonder whether commenters saying how hard it is being a SAHM of two children is have experience of other roles that can also be far from easy.

Wow. If you’re this patronising to your wife I think we may have identified the problem.

Yes, many of us had very busy careers prior to children. Some go back to them but most can’t, especially when their husband is working like he always has. You are only able to do that because your wife facilitates it.

The irony in your comment is that you clearly have bugger all idea of what it’s like to be in charge of two small children day in, day out whereas your wife has experienced both. So perhaps if she has found it difficult compared to a career in the city, retraining as a parent or starting in teaching, this should make give you an idea of what it’s like.

Sounds like not much has changed in your life in terms of working at least while everything has changed for her, and you seem completely unaware of why this might cause resentment.

Bloody good point. I am here to tell you that long hours in a stimulating, challenging job are a fucking piece of piss compared to long hours stuck alone with young DC. I am not in the City, but I'm driven and very intelligent and highly motivated, and I would be exhausted and miserable as a SAHM, far more so than as a working mum.
fatherofdragons · 01/02/2021 13:53

"He works full time bit seems to have a lot more time not working/commuting than his wife does. He is able to do the morning routine, school run and a supermarket sjop before logging on for the day and is finished at least 30mins before his wife walks in the door."

I just wanted to say in relation to this comment that my wife is going to bed at 9/10 p.m. and I am up until 1/2 a.m. in the morning (or later) doing work. I said in my original post that I do 70 hour weeks. I don't just finish work at 5.30 or 6 p.m.! I am doing at least 4-5 hours work after that time. Does my wife need to work 12 hour days as a newly qualified teacher - probably not - but she wants to do her best (which I understand). It's leaving me with picking up all the slack. I am senior at work and combined with the nature of my work I have a reasonable level control over my day, i.e. it may be 14 hour work but I have flexibility to arrange it.

OP posts: