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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Is this ok or not? DH and counsellor.

121 replies

Fantasisa · 08/12/2020 16:27

DH and I are separating. He thinks I'm narcissistic and I disagree and think a few choice things about him. We cannot agree and so we've agreed to divorce.

Now, I've been having counselling since the summer and he keeps saying if only I had the 'right' kind of counselling for NPD then we would stand a chance - not that I'm begging for one, we are both coming to terms with the reality of what the split means for us as a family. He has now said he should speak to my counsellor so he can fill her in on what life is really like living with me.

She, predictably, does not think that is necessary and wants to know what I think. On the face of this, is this an ok suggestion by DH? I cannot see things clearly anymore despite the excellent and expensive counselling!

OP posts:
SonEtLumiere · 08/12/2020 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

glassshoes · 08/12/2020 20:52

The fact you have been convinced of this is actually evidence I imagine to the contrary. See this instead as the final confirmation you are totally right to leave this horrible man.

gottastopeatingchocolate · 08/12/2020 21:48

Is your house actually on the market? It doesn't sound like he is actually invested in separating.

alvinp · 09/12/2020 08:22

Just reading your post and updates sent chills down my spine. My exDW did the same, although we had marriage counselling but she tried to ensure the counsellor could see "her side". She had me completely manipulated and believing I had problems despite her own utterly unstable history.

In our case we agreed to separate sessions with the counsellor, after which she would tell me that the counsellor had confirmed her views to her. It was of course gaslighting.

In hindsight i think the counsellor saw through her completely and in my subsequent individual session she helped me to recognise that I could not fix this relationship. It was a penny drop moment for me. She (the counsellor) did this without breaking any confidences or making any pronouncements, she just asked the right questions and ever since I have been grateful.

Writing this I think the counsellor probably also realised she could not ask those questions with my exDW there as I'd not have opened up and exDW would have headed it off, which may be why she suggested separate sessions.

Stay strong OP. It's him, not you.

YoniAndGuy · 09/12/2020 10:13

Wow your messages are like a training session on how well gaslighting can work.

Just say to him:

'So what you mean is that you thought counselling would mean me being instructed on how to act the way you want me to, but that's not happening so now you want to dictate to my counsellor too? Have you ever heard of gaslighting? Just to be clear: I'm very happy with the way MY counselling is going. It's helped me to see that yes, us splitting is the right course of action for me. You get to decide that for yourself of course, but you don't get to try and persuade anyone else to your point of view. And I'm also becoming happier in myself, as another thing MY counselling is doing is helping me to explore how I can assess my own situation and how best to make choices in MY life. Finally, can I also point out to you that in my opinion, the fact that you are absolutely not going to muscle in on MY counselling sessions to try and dictate in exactly the way you do in our marriage, is probably a good thing for you? Don't you think that would probably confirm to everyone that yes, you ARE exactly the kind of neurotic controlling gaslighter that is trying to convince his wife that if she's no longer prepared to tolerate you, she must be mentally ill?'

QuentinWinters · 09/12/2020 10:15

This sounds very like my ex, he couldn't bear me having therapy and not telling him the details. He saw his own therapist then came back and told me what she said about me..."she thinks i need to give you an ultimatum or leave because its so damaging but I told her I can't do that...". Then escalated and escalated. Having therapy and observing how he handled me not centring his needs in everything was what showed me the marriage was over.
If you haven't already, read "why does he do that?" By Lundy Bancroft. My exH was displaying a lot of the behaviours around trying to recruit the counsellor/joint friends/family to his victim narrative and when I read it my blood ran cold because I could see it wasn't about saving the marriage, it was about control.
www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that-pdf#page=70

Original poster
Fantasisa · 09/12/2020 10:32

I just struggle with this stuff as on the face of it, it is plausible, but I can also start to see through some of it too.

@gottastopeatingchocolate We decided to wait until the New Year to list the house, so we can get it ready over the Christmas break.

@alvinp I hope you are happy now, I keep telling myself that no matter what the rights and wrongs of my current life are - the future has got to be calmer than this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Fantasisa · 09/12/2020 10:37

@QuentinWinters Yes to contacting my friends/family. He said it was so they can help me and it was a last ditch attempt to save the marriage but it feels to me that all he wanted to do was convince them of his side. And it nearly worked! My best friend and I had words about it as she started saying back at me what he had said. Grrrr. She's stopped it now and I've told him not to contact anyone on 'my side'.

Interestingly, he didn't contact some of my more forthright friends as he wouldn't have wanted to know what they would have said to him in return.

OP posts:
ravenmum · 09/12/2020 10:41

It's only really when you get away that you can start to make sense of it and your brain can begin to calm down.

The thing is, wanting your side to be heard is a normal human feeling. The blame game is so unfair! But a reasonable person will realise that they can't make the other person listen or agree with them. And part of the healing process is to come to terms with that.

Just say to your hh "We're divorcing. It makes no difference now. My business is no longer your business. Just let it go."
Then play the Disney song on repeat at all hours of night and day.

Original poster
Fantasisa · 09/12/2020 10:46

Yes, I think I will only have clarity in a few months when I'm out the other side. I feel like this is a half life at the moment. Yes to wanting to be heard, I do too, and I knew joint counselling would have been him wanting me to be fixed without listening to my side.

Tbf he isn't pushing the request to speak to my counsellor, I just wondered if it was a normal request or overstepping.

OP posts:
Bellringer · 09/12/2020 11:00

Get out as quickly as you can and cut contact, your head will clear.
It seems he is still very invested in you staying, will he turn nasty, get physically abusive when he realises it's over? Have a safe bolt hole, speak to women's aid, stop telling him your thoughts and plans.

Honeyroar · 09/12/2020 11:11

You sound like, deep down, you’ve totally got the measure of him and are realising it’s not you.

WakingUp55643 · 09/12/2020 11:23

This is almost exactly what happened with me. I had my own counselling sessions, then asked DH to come, as I was planning to set it out to him that it was over and we needed to find a way to make separation work for us as a family. But as soon as we got in there, he turned on the charm, put his sad puppy eyes on, and it was all about how he felt badly done to by me, that I was making him have a joyless life, creating a bad atmosphere in the house..... I was furious, but what did I do? Sat there feeling terrible and didn't say a word. This was just over a year ago, and to this day I don't know if this was gaslighting, because I don't think he's capable of planning it so it turns round on me, more that he just finds a way of not taking responsibility for anything. I hope it works out for you OP x

katmarie · 09/12/2020 11:25

He's massively overstepping. On top of which, if your counsellor thought it would be good for you to be hearing from him, or for him to be in contact with her, she would be saying so. Her responses speak volumes. She is giving the ultimate choice to you as she should, but it's clear to me she doesn't think it necessary. The only time he should be involved in your counselling is if it is specially dedicated couples counselling that you have both agreed to. Anything else would just be a massive intrusion.

Alonelonelyloner · 09/12/2020 11:32

Is this dude my ex-husband???

I was in hospital once, being treated for broken bones (which he'd broken btw but whatever) and was listening to his conversation with the doctor on the other side of the curtain, detailing that I was probably schizophrenic or had another mental illness and that he is scared of me and what I might do!!

Run away! Enjoy your freedom!

lonelySam · 09/12/2020 11:42

I am having counseling atm and my partner says I am a selfish, egoistic cow and that everything is about me.
My therapist said: 'if you were an egoistic, selfish cow, you'd not be sitting here worrying about it'.
I don't think narcisstic people worry too much about what other people think of them tbh.

Original poster
Fantasisa · 09/12/2020 13:24

My therapist said: 'if you were an egoistic, selfish cow, you'd not be sitting here worrying about it'.

Well quite. Still such a head fuck which is obviously the aim for both of us, @lonelySam. I'm also told that I make everything about me which I think is code for not being a pushover. Are you finding the counselling helpful?

@Alonelonelyloner Oh my goodness! They won't stop at anything. I hope you are far away from him now.

OP posts:
fantasmasgoria1 · 09/12/2020 20:29

Personally I would finish it. He's gaslighting you. Trying to make out you are a narc is awful and would be enough for me to end it there and then.

Original poster
Fantasisa · 10/12/2020 12:13

It is finished but I'm grappling with how to feel about it all and our recent and past interactions. I guess I'm just questioning everything that is going round and round in my head.

OP posts:
Sssloou · 10/12/2020 12:25

@Fantasisa - that was his aim to project the confusion and blame on to you. You can just decide in your head to tell him - no need for the whys and wherefores - we are just not compatible.

Once you decide you are not compatible and have decided to separate all of the reasons / narrative / perspectives / perceptions are irrelevant.

Keep working with your therapist to dig back to the core of who you are and build back up your self worth from there - with self care and self compassion.

That’s all that matters going forward - to know who you are, your uniques values and purpose. These are what you were way before you met him.

AryaStarkWolf · 10/12/2020 12:34

I'm no expert on personality disorders but I think if you genuinely were a narcissist, you probably wouldn't be doubting yourself.

WattleOn · 10/12/2020 12:47

To me, you are just some random on the internet. So you may well be a narcissist. But I think it is more likely that your STBXH is a wanker.

DH and I have both seen counsellors at different times over the years.

He never met mine although I would have kind of liked him too so she could see who I was talking about. I showed her photos in our last session.

I met his. I didn’t really want to but I think he suggested it to her. I am not sure what the goal was for that session but DH was happy. I do ask him what he has talked about after his sessions, just as I ask him about his day, work etc, but he either tells me or says ‘life in general’ when he doesn’t really want to tell me. Either way, I don’t push.

I have been known to say ‘ you should mention this to your therapist’ a few times. I don’t think he always does though. That is up to him.

Original poster
Fantasisa · 10/12/2020 13:23

@WattleOn That's interesting that you met your DH's counsellor.

@Sssloou I think it is less about him now and more about me getting things straight in my mind which is so bloody hard.

OP posts:
sadie9 · 10/12/2020 13:59

I would say do not allow him speak to your therapist. He is trying to insert himself into your process and get attention for himself from the person 'controlling' you.
He wants control of your therapist is whats going on. He needs to control other people's ideas about him.
By all means get joint counselling, but not with your therapist. She is for you only.

Sssloou · 10/12/2020 14:57

I think it is less about him now and more about me getting things straight in my mind which is so bloody hard.

Exactly - it is v hard, especially with him trying to derail you. But you can emotionally detach from him in your head. Zone out when he talks at you, change or close down the subject, decide that his opinions have zero relevance to your future and they need to be erased from your mind to make room for positive reflections.