Am I being selfish? Should I stay for the kids?

[mummyof2lou]

Spent this morning driving myself crazy reading articles such as this one on the effects of divorce on children. Terrifying me, as there's truth in every point, but who knows how your children are affected until it happens?

I'm very nearly separated, but we haven't told the DCs yet, and now wondering if I'm being selfish? No arguments, no abuse, nice life, just affection issues/no spark. He would stay, so this is all on me. We're so far down the road, and I have literally days to stop it, or it's too late. I don't know what to do. Do I stay for everyone's financial and emotional security? Do I leave and risk life being difficult in many other ways and have this guilt over me? I may find happiness in passion and spark, but is it worth it at this cost?

www.verywellfamily.com/children-of-divorce-in-america-statistics-1270390

Plus when people take their wedding wows you wow that you will stay married for life - there is nothing about sparks in the wows. He is not abusive and is a good father. You can work on why the spark has gone out and try and regain it. It sounds as though you have checked out of the marriage though so perhaps that's why counselling didn't work.
I would hate getting divorced for the same reasons you have mentioned OP

@chopc yes I do agree in part, but when we say those vows we have no idea how life will be years and years down the line. I meant every word at the time, most people do. Trust me if I could regain a spark I would. If I stay, it will just be for the kids, it won't be with any illusion of spark. I would have to be content with a friendship and kindness etc. Which I realise are more than most have.

The children will stay with me as we think that's best. I was the one who gave up work to bring them up, I work part time around them. He works full time. Plus, maybe unpopular, but I think they should stay with their Mum. If the decision was go and leave them, I would stay without any doubt. Maybe an outdated view, but then so is the gender pay gap and the fact I am in a lesser job due to the sacrifices I made for their early years care, while his career continued, so fair enough in my book. Coparenting can be achieved without 50/50.

All this stuff about vows is just a way of beating people (mostly women) over the head with this 'you have made your bed, now you must lie in it'. It's telling women that they must always put themselves second.

Think about the content of what you said instead. Are you loving and cherishing each other? No? Then those vows are already broken and only you and your OH between you can judge whether or not they can be mended.

Things happen. People change. Sometimes a relationship just runs its course and it isn't anyone's fault. There's no virtue in staying together and being miserable for the sake of it.

Luckily too the family courts don’t give a fig who left who etc when it comes to either child arrangement orders (it’s largely the status quo and of course the best interests of the children). Nor does it have any bearing on financial allocations which take into account the potentially greater need of one party who has given up their career or taken lesser roles in order to care for children.

We aren’t quite at “no fault” divorce but the “fault” aspect has no bearing whatsoever on finance, family home or child arrangements.

I think it’s pretty clear the OP isn’t frivolously ditching her marriage because of a lack of spark. Yes much, much more than that.

The question up thread of whether one as a parent would be in one’s marriage without those kids struck a chord with me. I’d have been loooong gone myself. That’s pretty telling now I think of it.

You shouldn’t stay just for the kids. I was 5 when my parents divorced and all
I can recall was them arguing all the time. Kids pick up on things which include unhappiness. If your child came to you and said they were unhappy would you just tell them to suck it up? It can damage kids either by staying or going. It’s how you handle it. It can be amicable and your children can be happy.

@pointythings

All this stuff about vows is just a way of beating people (mostly women) over the head with this 'you have made your bed, now you must lie in it'. It's telling women that they must always put themselves second.

Think about the content of what you said instead. Are you loving and cherishing each other? No? Then those vows are already broken and only you and your OH between you can judge whether or not they can be mended.

Things happen. People change. Sometimes a relationship just runs its course and it isn't anyone's fault. There's no virtue in staying together and being miserable for the sake of it.

Hear hear.

I do feel like comments on here could well be representative of family and friends reactions...a mixed bag. Best get used to that

It is difficult. If you are financially and practically independent and 'child-free' the criteria of what constitutes a good enough relationship is much clearer. Sometimes it's no longer good enough because of these responsibilities but, at the same time, these responsibilities mean it is harder to exit.

If you are living life as a role model for your DC what is best? A barren relationship with biological parent that is not a positive model but isn't abusive and provides stability or (potentially) no relationship, no stability and no model? Or a series of failed relationships, no stability and a bad model? Or maybe a good relationship that provides stability and is good enough and a positive model?

You can't just live as a role model in this way, you can try, but you will fail.

But you can model being true to yourself and no matter how hard things may be, you can't fail to be a good enough parent.

Interestingly, Denmark always does very well for happiness ratings- often said to be the happiest nation. They have quite a high divorce rate and a book I was reading (A year of living Danishly) the author spoke to researchers who said they believed this contributed to Danish people being so happy. Because when a relationahip no longer works they have a no fault, quick divorce and move on.

Staying in an unhappy relationship is no model for your children and is no good for your mental health. And it isn't fair on your spouse.

I think people give up too easily on marriages these days ..........

And as a couple you chose that you will be the one to stay at home and therefore get behind with your career aspirations. So if anyone should compensate it's your husband- not your employer

This is a different debate but instead of gender pay gap in many cases it is a carers pay gap ........

@BreathlessCommotion

Interestingly, Denmark always does very well for happiness ratings- often said to be the happiest nation. They have quite a high divorce rate and a book I was reading (A year of living Danishly) the author spoke to researchers who said they believed this contributed to Danish people being so happy. Because when a relationahip no longer works they have a no fault, quick divorce and move on.

Staying in an unhappy relationship is no model for your children and is no good for your mental health. And it isn't fair on your spouse.

A very good point, and I'd go further. I think the UK system where there has to be fault sets partners against each other and has a part in actually creating more animosity where in a no fault situation there would have been less or none at all. The sooner we have quick, civilised no-fault divorce in the UK, the better.

There absolutely was fault in my divorce - my husband was an emotionally abusive alcoholic - but having to lay all that out in the petition, which he then saw, made him much worse and didn't help the process at all.

@mummyof2lou I am confused as to why you had children with your DH in the first place if on your actual honeymoon you were disappointed with the lack of sex romance and affection. Surely it was clear at that early stage you weren’t compatible? It doesn’t sound like you married for the right reasons if there were issues back then so I would think separating is the right thing to do. It’s just a pity you brought two children into a relationship you weren’t happy with.

@chopc

I think people give up too easily on marriages these days ..........

And as a couple you chose that you will be the one to stay at home and therefore get behind with your career aspirations. So if anyone should compensate it's your husband- not your employer

This is a different debate but instead of gender pay gap in many cases it is a carers pay gap ........

@chopc - where has someone suggested OP’s employer should make up for her pay gap. (Genuine question - I seem to have missed a bit of the discussion)

As to your perception that “people give up on marriage too easily these days” that’s actually factually incorrect. The divorce rate as at 2018 was at its lowest rate since 1971. Though I don’t doubt there will be a post Covid peak in 2021/22 ...

I married him because there were, and are, so many nice qualities about him too. He was making all the right effort in other ways in showing commitment, moving in, proposing. The biggest difference is, back then, I tried ALL the time to make that side of it work. I was so much more into him in that way, than he was with me. I now think it's just the way he is, I don't think it's me. Over the years, it wears you down. I gave up trying and that's when it started getting worse. I don't regret having children with him, he's an amazing Dad, and they're amazing children. There are children born into far worse situations. We always put them first, well until now.

@HaggisBurger OP mentioned that kids staying with the mother may be as outdated as the gender pay gap ...... I was just saying it exists in many cases due to the choices made by women/ couple. And the person responsible for making it up should be OP's partner if the choice was made as a couple. Anyway this is digressing from the main point of the thread

OP I do sympathise with you - but you married someone you were not sure about, hoping he would change. He has not changed- but you have run out of steam to tolerate the aspects you tolerated before

Does this mean you should stay in the marriage for the sake of the children - I don't know

I know I would and I would try and find ways of making my life fulfilled and progress my career so I am ready to leave when the kids leave - but you are not me

OP, I'm going to say that I don't think your being unreasonable. You sound genuinely emotionally neglected and, if you've tried counselling and your partner isn't responding, you can hold your hand up and say "I tried".

The biggest difference is, back then, I tried ALL the time to make that side of it work. I was so much more into him in that way, than he was with me. I now think it's just the way he is, I don't think it's me. Over the years, it wears you down. I gave up trying and that's when it started getting worse.

That echoes my own experience, weirdly enough. My partner cheated on me, but only after I realised I'd been overcompensating for years and was at the point I had to say "enough". If she had a bad day I would have to lay on TLC, but if I had one I had to suck it up in case it brought her down too. Looking back there was a real imbalance. Its no wonder we broke up in the end.

That said, I have to respectfully disagree (partly) with @pointythings about this:

All this stuff about vows is just a way of beating people (mostly women) over the head with this 'you have made your bed, now you must lie in it'. It's telling women that they must always put themselves second.

I'm not sure that's being entirely fair. Life is hard. Raising kids is hard. Old age is hard. It's, quite frankly, incredibly unrealistic, to expect relationships to chunter on happily, with the same passion as ever, through all these. Vows are taken by men too. They're meant to stop them from running off with girls half their age when those hard bits occur - usually when they hit middle age. The fact it doesn't stop many of them doesn't suggest women should emulate that shitty behaviour. Or should we start mugging people because some men do that too?

" I also worry about the kids thinking this is a relationship model to repeat, but do kids even notice lack of affection? They never see us being affectionate"

It's this that helped make my mind up to end a marriage very much like yours. The knowledge that my DC would end up thinking a relationship where adults didn't even share a bed or sit next to each other was awful. I ended it. Never regretted it.

This was confirmed when my DP started staying over and DD assumed he would be sleeping on the sofa. They have also struggled to see us holding hands or cuddling up on the sofa, all perfectly normal things in a loving relationship but they never once saw any of that between me and their dad. I think it proves that they do notice a lot more than we give them credit for.

I deliberately didn't read about how divorce damages children. Because I knew I couldn't do it for 10 more years. As long as it's amicable and both parents put the children first, there is no reason why children have to suffer in divorce. From what I have read, it's the acrimonious splits that have the negative affects.

"I just hope the sadness wouldn't make me a miserable Mum."

It will OP. It did for me. It just got worse and worse. I was grumpy, snappy, miserable. It was only after the split that I fully realised why I was like that. I'm like a different person these days, which has been noticed by others as well. I had no idea whilst I was in the middle of it just what type of mum I was. My DCs have said they can see the difference in me now amd that I'm happier, calmer, less shouty etc.

I work with children and young people so have seen both sides of this many, many times. I have certainly worked with children who have been traumatised by their parents divorce and, in particular, the subsequent blending of families. Many children have confided to me that they find this extremely upsetting despite their parent being convinced that everything is great and the kids LOVE their new partner and his/her DC, but that's a whole other thread. On the flip side, I've also seen children damaged by their married parents' heated arguments, infidelities or general disdain for one another. As several pp have said, there is a big difference between the impact of living with two parents who can't stand the sight of each other and parents who get along fine, respect and care for each other but just aren't "in love". I can't honestly say I've personally come across a child adversely affected by the latter but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen!

Amy Poehler said that Divorce is like "spreading everything you care about on a blanket and throwing it up in the air". It's bound to be scary, fraught with uncertainty and yes, there are risks involved but that's not to say it won't work out ok in the end. The problem is no one on this thread can give you any assurances that it will be worth the upset and disruption. I suppose it comes down to wether you're unhappy enough that it's worth taking the leap.

@mummyof2lou “ OP I do sympathise with you - but you married someone you were not sure about, hoping he would change. He has not changed- but you have run out of steam to tolerate the aspects you tolerated before

Does this mean you should stay in the marriage for the sake of the children - I don't know

I know I would and I would try and find ways of making my life fulfilled and progress my career so I am ready to leave when the kids leave - but you are not me”

I agree with @chopc

It’s different to the spark being gone - it was never there and you have just decided you’re not longer going to be in a relationship like that. It’s just a pity you brought children into the middle of it. It’s clear you didn’t get married for the right reasons.

I have a few friends who's parents stayed together until they were adults and then split. Even if they didn't have an inkling they wish their parents had split sooner. Because they wish they hadn't wasted that time when they couldhave been happy. And for them they also feel responsible for their parents staying together longer.

I take on board what @Washimal says, but I know loads of adults of divorced parents and they are all fine. Are they all perfectly mentally balanced- no, but as I said neither am I or my dh and both are parents are married still (and certainly mine are still clearly in love and happy). All sorts of things can traumatise children and you can't prevent everything. You can ensure that you are as careful as you can be to help them through it. Very few of us make it to adulthood completely unscathed.

@mummyof2lou

I do feel like comments on here could well be representative of family and friends reactions...a mixed bag. Best get used to that

Honestly I've only heard them on here.... and from my exDH

That was in reference to "you made your vows, stop being selfish"

"Amy Poehler said that Divorce is like "spreading everything you care about on a blanket and throwing it up in the air"

@washimal, how very true is that....