Teenage daughter - cold, uncaring, uncommunicative, rude. At my wits end.

[Madlollyoftheshire]

That’s about it really, I just don’t know how to deal/help her and it’s killing me. Would so appreciate any wise words or positive suggestIons from anyone who has experience of this, as it feels like we have lost our daughter.

My partner of 22 years and I have 2 daughters: our eldest is 19 and is kind, empathetic, sociable and sensitive. She has had her fair share of issues (struggled at school with severe dyslexia, skin surgery, boyfriend problems) but has got on with life and always been open with me and her dad and generally we all get on extremely well. However, our
youngest, who is 15, is the opposite and each of us has always found her challenging to be around, even from when she was little. She is incredibly strong-willed, in fact we “joke” that she would make good SAS material, as nothing phases her, she never cracks, ie, never backs down or apologies if she had upset anyone or been rude and if she’s not happy about something, even something as minor as one of us trying to start a conversation with her, she reacts immediately, usually by storming off and going incommunicado for long periods (even days) until one of us, usually me, apologises for upsetting her - even if I don’t know how it happened. I realise teenagers can be sullen, uncommunicative and difficult, but this is a whole other level - she hardly talks to any of us, won’t smile or spend any time AT ALL with any of us and spends all her time in her bedroom, including mealtimes. Despite my many attempts, car journeys are silent, as she will not engage. She refuses to eat with us, taking food to her room instead and rarely comes out to eat at restaurants with us - if she does, she won’t talk to us, just sits looking miserable. She borrows clothes and makeup from her sister without asking, and literally throws them back in her room without a word afterwards. Her sister says she hates her, and insists she really does as “M is a vile human being” and has given up trying to be nice to her anymore. My partner and I are still trying, but it is so hard to make the effort to even communicate with her, as we get so Very little back, usually negative. The only time’s she will make any effort Is when she wants us to buy something for her, then as soon as she has it, it is like a switch has flicked and she is back to her usual uncommunicative self - it’s so predictable! I do it because its the only time she seems to want Anything to do with me! Im also very concerned that she can be unkind and lack compassion - she says hurtful things about people/children/animals she finds ugly or annoying, including that she would like to slap/kick them, and seems unmoved when other people or animals are distressed. I find this really upsetting. Holidays are a waste of time and money, as she still won’t talk to us and stays in her room. She seems to think so little of her family that I would not be surprised if one day she just leaves home and we never see or hear from her again! I am so sad about it all.

She does have a few friends, seems happy at school and is doing OK academically, not great, but ok. She has no hobbies or interests, and believe me, we have tried so hard on that front. She spent virtually the whole of lockdown In her room alone. Her sister thinks she’s narcissistic or autistic....I just don’t know what to think.

On the rare occasions she has opened up to me she says ‘I’m OK, just Leave me alone”.

The advice we have had (from friends mainly - she refuses to see a counsellor), so far Is to leave her alone and wait for her to “come out the other side”, but she’s been like this for about 6 years, and I’m now seriously doubting she will Ever change and leaving her to it feels like I’m failing her - you just want your children to be happy, and kind, don’t you?

Can anyone offer any advice please - is this really how she will end up, because it’s a very depressing prospect?

Thank you to anyone who has read all this and has anything positive to offer.

Your poor other daughter I think you need to ensure she is protected and you support her too. No one has really considered this.

Interesting (and predictable!) everyone is saying autism. I work in mental health and did not get autism from your post at all.

I've never heard of an autistic female being cruel about animals for a start. They usually feel much more comfortable/empathic with animals in my experience.

And the 'manipulative' behaviour when she wants something, is this something autistic people do? I'm not sure it is.

How does she talk to her friends? Is she nicer to them? Surprised she has any if not!

Judy that’s only one view - we have a (male) friend with diagnosed autism and he finds pet animals very irritating. Not everyone is the same?

Of course not everyone is the same, I just don't think this particular girl has autism based on the info given.

Its possible she's an extreme introvert and so school is as much as she can cope with. It can be exhausting making all day.

Lockdown may have been a big relief for her and getting back to things won't be easy.

You're very dismissive of an eating disorder but eating alone does indicate some anxiety around food and to be honest how do you know what she does with the food? She could be flushing it down the loo for all you know.

Get your older daughter a lock and stop letting her talk down about your daughter. Teach her that different is ok as long as dd2 isnt hurting herself or others.

Maybe dd2 will leave when she can possibly that's why she has a job. Not much you can do about it but try and accept who she is and work within her boundaries when they're reasonable.

If she doesnt like hugs don't offer, ask her to find a way to tell you why she doesnt like family meals whether she writes it down or tells you.

Work with what she can do, and dont sweat the small stuff.

This sounds a lot like me as a teenager/ young adult, and yes, I got my autism diagnosis a couple of years ago (am now 46).

It's tricky. On the one hand, I recall rejecting all my mum's attempts to hug me, made no efforts to integrate with family life. I couldn't cope with emotional complexity or tension (of which there was quite a lot in my family), and my coping tactic was to have Nothing to Do with it Whatoever. Well into my 30s, I was still cutting people completely out of my life if they'd upset me in what, on mature reflection, was quite a minor way. Problem is, family members do tend to upset each other in minor ways on a pretty regular basis! Cognitive Behavioural Therapy was a game changer for me in enabling me to manage and control all those tricky difficult emotions.

But on the other hand, I just don't get this having to be close to your family. There are constant threads on Mumsnet with people going on about how they're missing their mums/ relatives etc, and I just can't empathise at all. I mean, it's fine if your family are people you have anything in common with, but I certainly don't have anything in common with mine. I see them now, for duty and the kids' sakes, but it's always a strain. They have always made it very clear that they regard all my views and opinions with contempt, which leaves us with the very smallest of small talk- and I hate small talk. I suppose that, hurt by my inability to respond as they'd have liked a "normal" daughter to respond, they became pretty nasty and mocking to me.

Damn, sorry, I just realise what a massive nerve this has struck with me.

A typical dynamic in my family would be: my (2 years younger, but remember autistics are typically emotionally younger than their age) teasing me in a typical kid way, and me reacting (so defending myself, really) by saying something really, really cutting (I'm very intelligent and good with words), my brother getting upset, and my parents turning to him and going "There there, it's OK, don't listen to her, you know what she's like.." - this happened repeatedly.

Is it any wonder I left home at 16?

It's also worth mentioning that my dad is also (I think) autistic- certainly he can be pretty unpleasant, intolerant of kids and noise, and used to say a LOT of tactless and hurtful things. Still does- he upsets my own DC on a regular basis .

My DD also LOVED lockdown. It was the happiest I have ever known her to be. She logged on, took up running, ordered loads of online crafts etc - before we had the horrors of Sunday evening anxiety / heightened stress / tense atmosphere and the charged mornings before school. But she “coped” at school. She only proactively sent a text to connect with friends last year. She is good at masking her introversion (ASD?) - lockdown allowed her to reset herself socially - so she only commits to what she can cope with and is happier “socialising” in sports groups rather than parties etc. We talk about “social exhaustion” - having the choice to do only what you want to etc.

My 16 year old daughter is exactly the same in every way.
She was diagnosed with autism about a year ago.
This came after years of bad behaviour, tantrums, not recognising boundaries and general challenges. Her dad was adament he did not want hero be 'labelled' but finally agreed we needed help when she tried to wrestle the steering wheel from me because she didn't want to go to school.
Like your daughter, she refuses to eat with us and is nocturnal. She is so horrible to her brothers that there is no relationship there at all. She refused to speak to her dad for two years.
I would say life is still difficult and she has not changed at all. Our attitude has changed though, now we know there is an issue and she is not just being difficult for the sake of it.
I would say though that you absolutely have my sympathy.
If your daughter is autistic, none of the remedies suggested here will work.
My daughter has never responded to punishment or praise and is basically impossible to parent normally. It isn't as simple as stepping up and putting boundaries in place. My daughter would simply disregard them and put herself in danger (ref car incident above)
I would advise you sart the ball rolling for diagnosis, to e honest

And Judy, we were told my daughter's behavior was pretty typical teen girl's autism presentation so I am not sure why you are so dismissive?

Hi op

You've just described my daughter. She's always been hard work tbh. Her only words she speaks to me lately is "go away".

School always told me how great she was, perfect lovely hard working little girl. Then she'd come home and be this sullen moody madam who just hated our company.

She did like a cuddle up to about age 6 then just totally stopped all forms of affection.

Her siblings are grown up and she never even bothers to come out of her room when they visit. Couldn't care less if she never saw them again. And when I was seriously ill a few years back she told me to "make your mind up and die or get better for gods sake" me being sick irritates her.

She was diagnosed autistic 2 years ago now. I've spent a lot of time on courses, reading up and getting advice (autism uk are amazing).

The being an angel at school thing is masking. She automatically does this to blend in and get through the situation. It's mentally exhausting and explains the mood when she's home.

It's definitely worth you really reading up on high functioning autism in girls.

I'm currently being ignored for the third day for misgendering a swan!

Not dismissive, just not agreeing with you. That is allowed

Great post Judygem. You really “get it” and explain it well. I hope this thread has been helpful to OP.

I had to sorta smile re. “misgendering a swan” Blissful ....

@GreekIslandTime 😂

My 14 yr old is same. She will absolutely refuse to apologise. Taking phone etc doesn't work. She doesn't care. She wont eat if we make her sit down stairs. Its a misery!

@JudyGemstone all autistic people are different and have different traits as you should know.

My daughter is ridiculously clever and certainly knows how to manipulate a situation to her own advantage trust me. She's still a teenage girl lol

I really think it's worth just reading up specifically on ASD girls.

I remember a camhs worker suggesting to me that my child was ASD and me being absolutely floored! It had never crossed my mind. Few days of reading up and it started to dawn on me. Long process for diagnosis confirmed it and as a result I've been able to support my daughter in a way that helps her instead of me taking her behaviour personally. She's slowly coming out of her depression and accepting herself 😀

I have a 16yr old ds with autism. Thing is how do you even get a child diagnosed these days? We just get passed from pillar to post now.

I’m with @JudyGemstone doesn’t sound so much to me like ASD. But... it matters not what people on here think. Only that OP can start to move forwards by somehow connecting with her, even if that means putting in boundaries - just to start a conversation. And improve the relational stuff overall in the home. My dd has been very difficult (incidentally - is diagnosed ASD). I found it is too easy to tread on eggshells and for it to take over the household but so important to not let that happen. Particularly for siblings. My mantra is that in the house everyone has needs that nobody’s bad mood is allowed to dominate. That’s a good start and is nothing to do with ‘a diagnosis’.

Good luck, OP

I was like this as a teenager. I don't have ASD but in hindsight I can understand I was reacting to my family. My parents had constant screaming rows and my mum would try to force us to spend time together in a toxic atmosphere where my dad thought my mum could do no right. My brother was a scapegoat, my sister could do no wrong, and I just treated everyone with contempt before they could hurt me. I learned how to do this my copying my dad.

I'm sure your family isn't as extreme as this, but there could be undercurrents that you don't understand. Systemic family therapy, where you all do therapy together, would help you work out what is going on. Families are like a system and if one person is unhappy it throws everyone off in different ways. I know you say your daughter won't do it so maybe you need to shamelessly bribe her.

Even if it turns out she does have ASD family therapy will help all of you work with it.

I think there is some projecting here. I don’t think you sound uncaring or that you don’t love her- I say that as someone who did have quite neglectful parents. It sounds like you’ve been through a lot.

How about writing her a letter? Or texting her? Is there another line of communication that you could open up that you feel she would take to better? Could you just send her silly snapchats? Make Tiktoks or anything to communicate with her?

I don’t agree with the ignoring her, or treating her the same way she treats you. That’s just playing games in my opinion.

Mealtimes you could order a pizza and go sit in her room and eat it together? You could watch a film or let her choose some Netflix to watch just the two of you.

Good luck- I really hope it gets better for you.

School always told me how great she was, perfect lovely hard working little girl. Then she'd come home and be this sullen moody madam who just hated our company.

This is my 9yo @blissfulllife

We’ve just had the most glowing school report this evening. She is a model student in every way, but at home she’s surgically attached to youtube wearing headphones. Talks to her younger sibling like dirt. Melts down over any demand (especially homework) but thinks nothing of barking out demands to us with zero politeness, friendliness, or any attempt to be nice. I know girls are expert maskers but this is extreme.

How do you broach possible ASD with the school? I’m pretty worried that they won’t actually believe me.

@Haworthia you just have to tell the school and sometimes rinse and repeat. I was insistent I had concerns and actually kept track of behaviours for a will write them down on my phone just after they happened, then went to school and GP with a list.

The school did say they didn't see anything at first then one day a teacher spotted her watching her friends and laughing just after they did, it was like the scales came off the teachers eyes and she noticed more and more mirroring behaviour and slightly inappropriate social interactions (nothing horrible just get not really getting social cues).

I'll agree with others my DD likes animals but can be a bit rough with them, my nephew is autistic and can be very violent, I'm sure he can be horrible to animals if they annoy him in fact he can be too anyone and causes his parents lots of worry.

I hope you get some support OP

I was very similar as a teenager. I had almost no interaction with my family from the age of around 14-18 and I definitely would not have reacted well to hugs and kisses. I did do well in school though - good grades and a group of friends, all fairly normal. In my case, I had severe depression and was definitely putting on a brave face at school so by the time I got home I was probably sick of pretending.

Is it possible your daughter is depressed?

So many helpful responses here. I agree that toxic dynamics in the family, if it exists, can be a massive contributing factor. I'm in the middle of divorce and hoping for better times when I finally move out with kids in a couple of months. Fixing the relationship would be preferable but we couldn't fix our bad relationship so sadly splitting up is the only way forward. I will be asking for an assessment for ASD for me too, for my daughters sake. I'm 99% sure I'm on the spectrum. I have gone with this to GP in the past but haven't been referred as was seen as coping OK.