Teenage daughter - cold, uncaring, uncommunicative, rude. At my wits end.

[Madlollyoftheshire]

That’s about it really, I just don’t know how to deal/help her and it’s killing me. Would so appreciate any wise words or positive suggestIons from anyone who has experience of this, as it feels like we have lost our daughter.

My partner of 22 years and I have 2 daughters: our eldest is 19 and is kind, empathetic, sociable and sensitive. She has had her fair share of issues (struggled at school with severe dyslexia, skin surgery, boyfriend problems) but has got on with life and always been open with me and her dad and generally we all get on extremely well. However, our
youngest, who is 15, is the opposite and each of us has always found her challenging to be around, even from when she was little. She is incredibly strong-willed, in fact we “joke” that she would make good SAS material, as nothing phases her, she never cracks, ie, never backs down or apologies if she had upset anyone or been rude and if she’s not happy about something, even something as minor as one of us trying to start a conversation with her, she reacts immediately, usually by storming off and going incommunicado for long periods (even days) until one of us, usually me, apologises for upsetting her - even if I don’t know how it happened. I realise teenagers can be sullen, uncommunicative and difficult, but this is a whole other level - she hardly talks to any of us, won’t smile or spend any time AT ALL with any of us and spends all her time in her bedroom, including mealtimes. Despite my many attempts, car journeys are silent, as she will not engage. She refuses to eat with us, taking food to her room instead and rarely comes out to eat at restaurants with us - if she does, she won’t talk to us, just sits looking miserable. She borrows clothes and makeup from her sister without asking, and literally throws them back in her room without a word afterwards. Her sister says she hates her, and insists she really does as “M is a vile human being” and has given up trying to be nice to her anymore. My partner and I are still trying, but it is so hard to make the effort to even communicate with her, as we get so Very little back, usually negative. The only time’s she will make any effort Is when she wants us to buy something for her, then as soon as she has it, it is like a switch has flicked and she is back to her usual uncommunicative self - it’s so predictable! I do it because its the only time she seems to want Anything to do with me! Im also very concerned that she can be unkind and lack compassion - she says hurtful things about people/children/animals she finds ugly or annoying, including that she would like to slap/kick them, and seems unmoved when other people or animals are distressed. I find this really upsetting. Holidays are a waste of time and money, as she still won’t talk to us and stays in her room. She seems to think so little of her family that I would not be surprised if one day she just leaves home and we never see or hear from her again! I am so sad about it all.

She does have a few friends, seems happy at school and is doing OK academically, not great, but ok. She has no hobbies or interests, and believe me, we have tried so hard on that front. She spent virtually the whole of lockdown In her room alone. Her sister thinks she’s narcissistic or autistic....I just don’t know what to think.

On the rare occasions she has opened up to me she says ‘I’m OK, just Leave me alone”.

The advice we have had (from friends mainly - she refuses to see a counsellor), so far Is to leave her alone and wait for her to “come out the other side”, but she’s been like this for about 6 years, and I’m now seriously doubting she will Ever change and leaving her to it feels like I’m failing her - you just want your children to be happy, and kind, don’t you?

Can anyone offer any advice please - is this really how she will end up, because it’s a very depressing prospect?

Thank you to anyone who has read all this and has anything positive to offer.

Yes sounds like could be PDA - pathological demand avoidance. It’s a subset of autism. The person resists demands of nearly every kind, cleaning their room, even washing. Just about everything in normal every day living - except maybe something impulsive and immediate they really want to do! Whatever it is, from what you say, it’s nothing to do with your parenting - and as you have found carrots and sticks don’t really work. It’s a very difficult and frustrating position to be in, I really feel for you as a parent

I was exactly like your DD growing up. My homelife was awful - chaotic, mum and dad would compare me openly to my sister, all my ideas would be dismissed, my sister was allowed to badmouth me and insult me but when I retaliated I was punished. Mum and Dad never noticed because they’re narcs. I would never get bought nice things unless I demanded it several times while my sister would often get lovely things bought for her unprompted - there was always an excuse too.

I would say carefully and honestly review your home life. Stop allowing your elder daughter to say she hates her or call her names when she’s not around. Try and get more involved in her interests - if she wants to eat in her room why not ask if you can join her? Ask just her out for coffee and a shopping trip unprompted (so there’s nothing for her to ask for).

If she’s rude and swearing at you, stealing her sisters stuff, then deal with it there and then. Don’t then use past blow outs to beat her with - once it’s done, it’s done. You need to develop a culture of openess, trust, and forgiveness across all members of the household otherwise things won’t improve.

You have spoken about all of the issues that your older daughter has faced and addressed - I am wondering if your younger daughter felt sidelined if a lot of your time and attention was spent supporting your older daughter. There seems a lot of contempt and resentment in the family.

What is your DPs role / perspective / involvement and approach.

I experienced similar with my DD. It tore our family to shreds. It put a lot of strain on our marriage as we dealt with her differently and also with her siblings as I felt I had to manage her differently as she had major social anxiety, a visual impairment and SEN.

She didn’t want to do family days out and meals were horrific - so we adapted - one of us ate with her alone and we did one to one day trips. She was under CAMHS for a while - who ruled out ASD. However we just kept on with the kind and compassionate stuff (even though it was a struggle) - she was and is a real introvert in a big loud busy family. Our approach is little and often with her. She won’t have a big long conversation - gets socially exhausted at school and as
PP said takes it all out and explodes at home........but that has all now resolved. In 6th form (never thought she would get there) - she has found her little tribe of quiet introverts and a girlfriend who she is deeply in love with. She is still v “young” emotionally 13 to her 18 and I just try to keep the peace and and I am v v proud of how she has finally settled.

Keep showing her kindness and respect - always greet her with a bright smile (even when you are steaming) - I really believe that these types are suffering somewhere along the line. Mine also changed when she got a puppy.

You can look up all of the adaptations etc for ASD etc and just try to incorporate them into your home life to see if that helps. I am also aware that we ended up a toxic / dysfunctional cyclical dynamic in our marriage and once we sorted that out - her behaviours also got better.

Not rtft but I was thinking possibly PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) ? Don't think it's assessed yet or diagnosed in the UK but worth checking it out and seeing if you recognise any of the traits. It falls under the broad ASD umbrella.
Sounds very much like it could be .
Otherwise it could either be her general make up or something emotional that needs to be looked. Read about PDA first tho.

I don't know much about autism, but I was going to second online bullying.
Kids can be really cruel online and if your DD is experiencing that she could just be really upset all the time. Being stubborn and cold is a way of dealing with bullying.

Other than this, I'm not sure. I was similar when I was younger, I checked out of family life for a while. Spent a lot of time studying in my room, because my parents were overly critical, so any conversation I had with them were lectures, many times telling me off for a story I was telling about a school friend or something! So I associated parental interaction very negatively and kept to myself as much as possible.

@PineappleUpsideDownCake

She sounds like she's completely shut down and hurting. I'd be very careful.

I'd imagine she needs to be loved and understood and accepted.

Have school said anything? Is she very underweight? Can you tell school you're worried about her.

Im likely autistic with an eating disorder. My parents were nasty.

The op doesn't sound nasty, just perplexed.

The biggest issues to me would be her borrowing her sister's clothes without asking, that is outrageous and she needs to realise it; swearing in response to reasonable questions is just plain unnecessary.

Other than that, I wouldn't worry too much and would leave her alone. She needs to have privacy. If she wants to eat apart from the rest of you, so what as long as she is eating. At her age I would have loved to be able to put space between me and my parents, couldn't bear the constant intrusion of inane chat, questions and nagging, never mind the embarrassment; was always looking for somewhere to go, to have a little place that was just mine to escape from them.

Teen years are difficult but they do pass.

My first thought on reading your title was that she may have autism. I can see I'm not the first to suggest this and I would encourage you to seek an assessment as your daughter sounds unhappy. I have worked with countless adult women who were diagnosed late and it was terrible for them. Early understanding and support is crucial. If she is assessed and that's not the case at least you are trying to understand what's going on for her and can take it further.

If your other daughter has dyslexia there may be a family trait, these neurodevelopmental conditions are all connected genetically (autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia etc).

was astounded. She seems to reserve her cold, silent treatment purely for home. We have no family nearby and only 1 grandad

If she’s masking at school - she will be exhausted by the time she gets home. Poor thing. Does she have any interests at all - what she’s she do in her room? Does she like music, Netflix, books, fashion? Doesn’t have to be a grand, externalised hobby. What does she want you to buy her?

@Madlollyoftheshire

I am not concerned about her eating, she eats well when she wants to. She often asks for takeaways or goes to Nando’s/pizza Express with her friends.

Anorexics, bulimia and EDNOS will often eat... just not enough calories. You could eat an entire McDonalds burger and lose weight if you’re not eating much else in the day. The social avoidance screams eating disorder. I hope you find out what’s troubling your DD x

This behaviour is screaming autism (Asperger's Syndrome) and, more importantly, depression. You may need to get her on anti-depressants. She will probably need counselling. Get to your GP as soon as possible to start the process and can you afford to do it privately? CAMHS around us is completely overwhelmed. She may be being bullied at school or online - girls with ASD often are. Can you check her phone or computer?

You speak to a child psychologist. Get help. Stop buying her things.

It sounds like your eldest is the favourite. Try to treat them the same and don’t sit and analyse her wth the oldest. I have no idea if your daughter has a diagnosable condition but if my parents had been sitting around analysing me with my sibling it certainly wouldn’t make me want to play happy families. Sounds like she isn’t stupid and probably has picked up on the pecking order.

Not doing diagnosis by internet, but if she is autistic, do not punish her by taking away her stuff, like WiFi, Netflix etc. Not only does it not work on autistic people (we can be extremely stubborn and willing to tolerate almost anything rather than comply with rules we find unfair or irrational), it might well be her only source of happiness. Autistic young people often have a rich online life, and as long as she’s not accessing inappropriate material, a lot of us learn how to human via internet.

Please don't chase her up the stairs when she gets in to talk. If she is ADHD/ADD/Autistic she may need some space to unwind from the stress of being around people.

DS is ADHD. He HAS to go to his room when he gets in from school for at least 20 minutes to come down from being around people. if he's been in a wider group or had a supply teacher etc. that time can be a lot longer. If I try and talk to him during this period he will have a melt down.

If he has had a difficult day (for him - it might not seem it to others) we can have some of the behaviours you describe. DS tried incredibly hard to keep it together when he is out of the house. Home is his safe place to let go of that tension.

I spent a long time feeling like DS hated me. Once I got my head round the fact that I was (& still am) his safe place that got easier to cope with. If DS is acting out I encourage him to go and spend some time calming down on his own. He is expected to follow rules such as eating at the table although he is not expected to engage in conversation and we don't try and engage him.

Once DS feels calmer & more centered he will come and have a hug, chat etc. I've had to accept that these things are on his terms & he has had to accept that there are ways he has to behave as part of the family.

We are not perfect & there are still flare ups (I try but I don't always get it right) but our home is calmer, we are all calmer & DS is one of the most amazing people I have ever known!

It could be that your daughter appears great outside of the home but needs to let it go when she gets in. Be glad you are her safe space but work towards ensuring there are boundaries that work for all in the home.

This sounds like a horrible situation for all of you. I'm not sure on how some posters think their suggestions will pan out. It sounds like it would be good for the OP, her husband and the daughter to get some professional help but how exactly does that happen if the daughter doesn't actually want it.

Also not sure how forcing the daughter to interact is meant to work out.

I don't know what I would do. I would feel very very sad.

OP, how about seeing a counsellor to chat about this. They might be able to give you some advice on how to deal with it.

Have you had a look at her phone, just to check there's no bullying going on?

Your DD sounds very much like our DD1 (11, and adopted). She's always masked completely at school, where she's described as polite but shy. At home, she expresses a lot of anger and tears, and lashes out by throwing things or hitting/kicking. (She once tried to hit me with a rounders bat.) I do suspect ADHD, she has other SEN as well.

DD2 (8, and her full birth sister) has always been much easier to manage, being NT. it does make DD1 think we favour her, so it is something to watch out for.

A word of warning. Don't assume automatically that there hasn't been a trauma in the past. My DSis and I suffered childhood SA at the hands of my F and others, yet my DM knew nothing about it and was completely heartbroken when we told her about it several years ago. (The memories had been repressed for years and our F had long since died.) I'm obviously not saying that there necessarily has been such a trauma, but please keep an open mind. Your DD clearly is hurting badly and sounds depressed.

@Madlollyoftheshire I'm sorry that things are so challenging for you and your daughter. Like other posters have said it sounds like there is something going on and it's probably worth considering that this might be a neuro diversity issue or eating disorder etc. You might find this organisation helpful they have lots of resources: childmind.org/
Good luck. Hope you get some help.

She’s telling you what she needs. She needs to be left alone.

After a full day of masking at school (if she is ASD, which it sounds like!) she comes home and needs space and quiet.

It sounds like you need a new agreement where she can go straight to her room and doesn’t need to interact with you etc and you respect her boundaries but in return she needs to respect her sisters boundaries. Ie no one enters anyone’s room without knocking and being granted entry.

In return she needs to give you some time/contribution at the weekend - what can she suggest?

You sound very caring and nice. I agree it sounds like PDA/autism. You can go on the PDA websites and find out support groups to talk to and get your head around it.

I'll echo what others have said my DD is 11 she autistic and shows some of this behaviour luckily she still interacts with the family. But could easily tip the other way.

Please don't try to hug her it's hard not if she does have autism her nervous system responds differently and can become overwhelmed. Even when my DD is upset or injured I will not hug her unless she approaches me. Obviously I am loving towards her physically ( that sounds dodgy but can't think of a way to phrase it) but on her terms.

It's actually been good for us and the wider family as it's made us more respectful/ sensitive of boundaries. My Dsis is particularly close to her and knows as well to not just go in for a hug with her but to ask her and respect her response as a result of being more understanding towards her needs she does seem happy.

It's hard OP and horrible I hate that I never really seem to know what she's thinking or feeling that I don't really ever have a proper conversation with her but do we ever really know another's thoughts.

@Sssloou It’s interesting what you say about CAMHS ruling out ASD with your daughter because your description still screams autism to me. You may not want to pursue it again but if I were you I would. Being undiagnosed (as I believe I am, aged 40) is such a heavy lifelong burden. It’s appalling how many girls are missed, even by professionals, because their presentation can be more subtle (and they can mask their way through assessments).

This sounds so difficult. And there many possibilities - ASD, eating disorder, trauma, bullying, emerging personality disorder. Or none of the above.

Whether something is ‘wrong’ with her or not, there is something ‘not quite right’ with the lopsided dynamic between each dc and mum and dad. I would suggest family therapy (if you can possibly afford it) to find a less lopsided vibe in your home (good child/bad child).

It must feel very lonely and desperate. You must reach out before she turns 18 when help will never come unless she seeks it herself - at which point you’ll be stuck.

Sort it now, OP.

@Haworthia - I totally agree. It was not the result I expected.

However there were significant parental questionnaires about her behaviour under 5 which I completed and none of it was relevant. But as I said I have adapted to ASD environment. I am conscious this may well emerge again at another point and I would look to support her at every step. We talk a lot about individuality / difference / introverts / different tribes. She’s social and blossoming at the moment. But I am keeping an open dialogue with her.

She sounds very introverted and possibly autistic. Living with a family who are the opposite, you're probably far too much for her. She also may need a lot of time alone to recharge after spending the whole day at school trying to act normal.

Ban her from taking her sisters clothes without asking. She shouldn't be punished for not appearing empathic or sociable. She's not a performing seal.

I think positivity is the best. Try to find things that will bring her out of herself. If there's anything she enjoys that you could do together, that could help connect you.