Teenage daughter - cold, uncaring, uncommunicative, rude. At my wits end.

[Madlollyoftheshire]

That’s about it really, I just don’t know how to deal/help her and it’s killing me. Would so appreciate any wise words or positive suggestIons from anyone who has experience of this, as it feels like we have lost our daughter.

My partner of 22 years and I have 2 daughters: our eldest is 19 and is kind, empathetic, sociable and sensitive. She has had her fair share of issues (struggled at school with severe dyslexia, skin surgery, boyfriend problems) but has got on with life and always been open with me and her dad and generally we all get on extremely well. However, our
youngest, who is 15, is the opposite and each of us has always found her challenging to be around, even from when she was little. She is incredibly strong-willed, in fact we “joke” that she would make good SAS material, as nothing phases her, she never cracks, ie, never backs down or apologies if she had upset anyone or been rude and if she’s not happy about something, even something as minor as one of us trying to start a conversation with her, she reacts immediately, usually by storming off and going incommunicado for long periods (even days) until one of us, usually me, apologises for upsetting her - even if I don’t know how it happened. I realise teenagers can be sullen, uncommunicative and difficult, but this is a whole other level - she hardly talks to any of us, won’t smile or spend any time AT ALL with any of us and spends all her time in her bedroom, including mealtimes. Despite my many attempts, car journeys are silent, as she will not engage. She refuses to eat with us, taking food to her room instead and rarely comes out to eat at restaurants with us - if she does, she won’t talk to us, just sits looking miserable. She borrows clothes and makeup from her sister without asking, and literally throws them back in her room without a word afterwards. Her sister says she hates her, and insists she really does as “M is a vile human being” and has given up trying to be nice to her anymore. My partner and I are still trying, but it is so hard to make the effort to even communicate with her, as we get so Very little back, usually negative. The only time’s she will make any effort Is when she wants us to buy something for her, then as soon as she has it, it is like a switch has flicked and she is back to her usual uncommunicative self - it’s so predictable! I do it because its the only time she seems to want Anything to do with me! Im also very concerned that she can be unkind and lack compassion - she says hurtful things about people/children/animals she finds ugly or annoying, including that she would like to slap/kick them, and seems unmoved when other people or animals are distressed. I find this really upsetting. Holidays are a waste of time and money, as she still won’t talk to us and stays in her room. She seems to think so little of her family that I would not be surprised if one day she just leaves home and we never see or hear from her again! I am so sad about it all.

She does have a few friends, seems happy at school and is doing OK academically, not great, but ok. She has no hobbies or interests, and believe me, we have tried so hard on that front. She spent virtually the whole of lockdown In her room alone. Her sister thinks she’s narcissistic or autistic....I just don’t know what to think.

On the rare occasions she has opened up to me she says ‘I’m OK, just Leave me alone”.

The advice we have had (from friends mainly - she refuses to see a counsellor), so far Is to leave her alone and wait for her to “come out the other side”, but she’s been like this for about 6 years, and I’m now seriously doubting she will Ever change and leaving her to it feels like I’m failing her - you just want your children to be happy, and kind, don’t you?

Can anyone offer any advice please - is this really how she will end up, because it’s a very depressing prospect?

Thank you to anyone who has read all this and has anything positive to offer.

I truly don’t think she has an eating disorder - I was VERY thin when I was her age (I’m not now!) and so is DD1. She doesn’t want to eat with us but she does eat good meals,in her room and she does Often make herself good meals.

She obviously knows the difference between good and bad behaviour if she is well behaved at school. That points to her being normal, just like this to suit? There has to be a reason why she is like this with you though - does she feel inferior to or less well treated than your other daughter, or that you prefer your other daughter/your other daughter is your favourite?

No it doesnt. Lots of children with challenging behaviour "cope" at school and then let it out at home either with explosive behaviour or shutting down. Its a really really common pattern.

If you say she has always been like this more or less, I would think she's somewhere on the spectrum. Have you tried those quizzes like the one suggested above? Do you see her in there somewhere?

My DD has complex depression, body dysmorphia and anxiety - she's had issues since childhood too and she's 17 now. From the way you describe your daughter's lack of empathy and rejection of affection etc., It sounds far more than just bad behaviour. Have you never had any advice on it?

Is she underweight? You all being underweight doesn't make it okay. ..

Have you seen the misophonia thread? Don't know if that applies to her but hopefully can make you aware there's nmany reasons why someone might not be able to tolerate shared meals (disordered eating, misophonia, anxiety about being forced to talk to people who seem to hate you ...)

You sound quite "cold and uncaring" (your title) yourself tbh.

My daughter was/ is the same. She isn’t autistic, just very controlling and verbally abusive. She has been to university and has calmed down quite dramatically. She was only evil to family and family friends, everyone else thinks she is lovely. We were completely unable to parent her, she did not respond to reward or punishment or boundaries or ever listen to reason. It did not go away after puberty. We were told she probably has/had a narcissistic personality disorder.

@PineappleUpsideDownCake

No it doesnt. Lots of children with challenging behaviour "cope" at school and then let it out at home either with explosive behaviour or shutting down. Its a really really common pattern.

Yes but having challenging behaviour does not necessarily mean the child is not "normal" i.e. having challenging behaviour does not necessarily mean the child is autistic or have some other disorder. My daughter had challenging behaviour in her teens, took drugs/self harmed because she was struggling with her sexuality (she is bisexual). Now older she is fine.

Thank you all, I really do appreciate your input. I’ve always tried to show her love, more carrots than sticks, and I’m not one for confiscating things, although we have taken away her phone on the odd occasion. DD1 thinks my dad and I are too soft on her and that’s why she’s the way she is, but carrots work temporarily and sticks not at all, so I’ve stuck with the carrots, IYSWIM. It doesn’t matter how much I tell her I love her and I’m here for her and offer to do things with her, she tells me she’s ok and just wants to be left alone. I can’t think of any past “trauma” or reason for her to feel second-best.....except that her behaviour inevitably means she doesn’t join in with Most family outings...but that’s her choice. I will look at the books that have been suggested. Thank you.

I don't think any parent should deliberately mirror the bad behaviour of the child.
It's a parents role to show love and compassion and model the behaviour you expect them to mirror from you. Yes sometimes life isn't like that all the time and anyone can lose it but that should be the aim!
Take every opportunity to show you love her and are interested in her life. Give her a cuddle or ask for one! A kiss on the head.
Use positive loving language.
That doesn't mean you have to be a push over - she should treat guy with respect the way you treat her.
Something we do here is not hold a grudge. Have an argument or bad mood then it's over. Not mentioned again and move on.
I know it isn't easy.

I thought autism too. My daughter is only 9 but a lot of what you said resonated with me. I think my daughter fits some of the PDA profile of autism - pathological demand avoidance. It’s worth reading up on it just to see if any of it rings true.

You might get people saying your daughter is just plain bad and autism (and other neurodevelopmental issues) is too commonly used as an excuse. Ignore that. There really could be something else going on here.

My sister is was horrendous so stubborn and selfish anyway was diagnosed bipolar at 8(!) but actually I think she's autistic. My dad is and my mum I think is autistic as well ;also diagnosed bipolar style 2).

My sister was exactly like your daughter. Just awful. Is now a lesbian carpenter. Still hurtful to people, very self centred, cruel at times. I don't know it's just who she isZ she isn't aware of how she isZ

Good luck

This sounds beyond normal teenage strops, and honestly I think you need professional help. Are you in a position to access private help?

I dont really believe in carrots or sticks to be honest. The other book I recommend in groups is, "How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk." I believe there's a teen version which might be more applicable. It's quite "American" with cheesy examples, but the principle is good, with the emphasis on understanding the child andwhere they are coming from.

AskEvans. Do you think autistic people aren't normal? Really?

My point wasn't that it was autism, kt could be any number of things. But that challenging behaviour often can happen at home when it the child has "held it together" at school. Also that there is a reason for all behaviour - whether that be autism/eating disorder or struggling with identity or bullying or depression or parents that are strugglig for one reason or another.

Like RoseGold7 I also suspect an eating disorder, and I say that as the mother of a DD who was very ill with anorexia for 8 years (now recovered, thank god)

@@Nonimal - I am sorry you were/are experiencing the same issues, but it helps to know we’re not alone, and that your daughter is now doing well. How did you find out about her personality disorder? I’d love my DD to speak with a professional to see if she needs help, but of course, she doesn’t want to know!

There is, incidentally, a huge link between eating disorders and undiagnosed autism.

I am not concerned about her eating, she eats well when she wants to. She often asks for takeaways or goes to Nando’s/pizza Express with her friends.

@Madlollyoftheshire I haven't had time to read the entire thread but I hope what I do have to say will help and please feel free to PM as I don't want to say too much on here. I could have written your post - word for word - two years ago. DD is the youngest of four and it was hell. Exactly as you describe. Thing is - after going to hell and back, she was diagnosed as autistic and with ADHD ( we already knew she was dyspraxic) and to be honest, Ritalin saved her life. She is now in first year at uni, reading Law, loving life, and for the first time in years is able to communicate with me not only when she wants something, and there are green shoots of normal kind and loving social interactions. I want to say to you that it will not always be this way. There are things you can do that will help, but confrontations make it worse. There is a reason for her behaviour Nd it's not because you have produced a bad person. My DD thought she was both mad and bad and that terrified her - until she realised that she was just struggling to function in a neurotypical world.

@Cuddling57 - that is good advice. My shows of love an affection don’t seem to be appreciated, in fact she tries to physically avoid hugs and kisses. When i hug her she keeps her arms by her sides! I also try to have a fresh start with her each day. I will keep trying. willl try to focus on the positives - she’s got friends and is holding her own academically. She’s also very recently got a job at the local pub doing the washing up - she came home tonight (got a lift home) went straight upstairs to bed without even saying hello. 😥

I think it's very worrying and a sign of deep distress. You must find a way to get professional help. Talk to school as well. She may have experienced abuse, she may be autistic, she may be in the middle of a cyber-bullying or online grooming drama, she may be self-harming, she may have severe depression and/or anxiety. Whatever it is, it is not okay and not healthy. You have to work as hard as is humanly possible on repairing your relationship but this alone is probably not enough.

Any reason why you're not acknowledging the many comments re potential ASD (autism spectrum disorder) OP? I have 2 DC with ASD & have ADHD & ASD myself. It seems pretty likely from what you've said. You could actually be describing my youngest, who presents with a version of ASD called PDA (pathological demand avoidance) which is where anxiety is so high the person feels the need to be in control of absolutely everything & basically comes across like a right little arsehole. In reality, they are terrified inside. I was exactly like that as a child & my parents reacted with abuse & threw me out in my mid-teens. You are clearly not like my parents because you posted on here for some answers. May I gently suggest you do some research on ASD & PDA? It could be a huge lightbulb moment for you. It certainly was for me!

Don't let her go upstairs without saying hello, chase her and talk to her about her day (even if she doesn't want to talk). Don't be afraid to 'pester' her, you're her mum, you're allowed to be concerned! She may be hiding something because she doesn't know how to mention it - in which case you don't want to miss it. If you didn't talk in the evening, talk to her in the morning, say that you noticed she hurried upstairs quickly and that you worry about her. Don't give in to 'leave me alone' plea, it's not helpful, keep probing her beyond 'I'm fine', be determined and assertive, think about it as your job. It's so hard with this kind of attitude and it's so easy to give in, but you must keep trying. I started doing it better only with support of a social worker - it was such a brick wall otherwise - but sharing our progress with a supportive person who was on our side helped me to break through and establish a better connection.

@PineappleUpsideDownCake

I dont really believe in carrots or sticks to be honest. The other book I recommend in groups is, "How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk." I believe there's a teen version which might be more applicable. It's quite "American" with cheesy examples, but the principle is good, with the emphasis on understanding the child andwhere they are coming from.

AskEvans. Do you think autistic people aren't normal? Really?

My point wasn't that it was autism, kt could be any number of things. But that challenging behaviour often can happen at home when it the child has "held it together" at school. Also that there is a reason for all behaviour - whether that be autism/eating disorder or struggling with identity or bullying or depression or parents that are strugglig for one reason or another.

I have an autistic child and yes I would say my child is not classed as "normal" in the way my other non-autistic child would be classed as "normal".

I absolutely second ASD/ADHD assessment and the PDA variety - I agree it's highly likely from what you describe and that's why professional help is so important. We're mid-way through assessment so no definite answers yet but I think it's totally part of the problem (and solution) in our case.