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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

unmarried stay @home mum separation advice please

277 replies

fridaysforfuturemum · 29/10/2020 22:31

My partner asked for a separation in January.
We are joint owners of our home and have been living in a toxic atmosphere since then. We have two teenagers at High school. We're not married and I know I have no legal rights on anything but half the house. It was a joint agreement that I leave my job to be a stay@home mum. My partner now says it was my decision and legally he does not have to give me equal share of the savings etc..
I have no money as we just had a joint account. I really want to stay in my home with my kids. (they will stay with me one week, then him the next...)
The solicitors I spoke to were not interested in helping me because they said I was a cohabitee and had no rights. Appeal to his better nature was their top tip!
Can anyone suggest what kind of professional would be able to help me put a financial settlement proposal together that is fair and equal,takes into account what I have contributed to our family over the last 16 years and splits everything 50/50?
I'm saying to him it's about doing the right thing and what's morally right rather than what I'm legally entitled to. I asked him to treat me as if we have been married. We have been together 26 years :(
I've been a trusting fool like so many other women before me...

OP posts:
LargeProsecco · 02/11/2020 10:30

We have cohabitation rights in Scotland; they don't give the same rights as marriage but are based on the concept of "advantage" & "disadvantage".

So women who are cohabiting have recourse for going part-time, paying the mortgage on a partner's home (if held jointly) etc.

These have been around since 2006, but claims are few as it's often difficult to prove.

But for anyone who is interested- M v S section 28 cohabitation claim & you'll see:

www.lawscot.org.uk/members/journal/issues/vol-63-issue-02/wealth-not-a-bar-to-s-28-claims/

Orcus · 02/11/2020 10:34

The Scottish system was closed to new relationships after 2006 too. If you weren't together and meeting the criteria before then you don't qualify.

vanillandhoney · 02/11/2020 10:52

@FortunesFave

Vanilla you honestly sound like you have no experience of what real life is for many women.

None at all. I can't argue with someone who has such a narrow view because I can't be arsed talking about the social issues which you're ignoring.

Lol, if you say so.

I've seen numerous friends get screwed over because they fell for the line of "marriage is just a piece of paper" or "we'll marry in five years".

Women need to take responsibility for their lives. If marriage is important to you, don't have unprotected sex outside of that. Don't move in with someone and have multiple children with them on a promise.

It's all very well saying it's the fault of society or social conditioning but that doesn't actually protect people and stop them getting financially screwed over.

As well as benefits, marriage has drawbacks too. People need to go into it with eyes wide open and know exactly what they're signing up for. It's not something that should just "happen".

LargeProsecco · 02/11/2020 11:40

@Orcus - the family law act for section 28 claims was introduced for anyone in a cohabitation relationship from 2006 onwards.

I moved in with my partner in 2005 -& would still have a claim if I wanted to make one now.

There's a tight timescale for claims (a year) under the act but it's still very much alive & kicking!

Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear · 02/11/2020 12:00

I can never understand why it isn't pushed that two forms of contraception should be used until TTC. The number of accidental pregnancies then would be miniscule. Women could then state that no TTC would happen until marriage.

Ohalrightthen · 02/11/2020 12:14

@Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear

I can never understand why it isn't pushed that two forms of contraception should be used until TTC. The number of accidental pregnancies then would be miniscule. Women could then state that no TTC would happen until marriage.
Isn't it? We were taught at school that we should always be using condoms and another method. This was 15 years ago, i still remember the PE teacher taking the session going "belt and braces, ladies!"
Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear · 02/11/2020 13:29

When I was at school the stress was very much on condoms for STI purposes, I can't recall ever being told to use two types purely for contraceptive reasons. When I asked for the coil after DH had the snip the family planning clinic couldn't understand why I wanted two methods so it clearly isn't pushed enough!

vanillandhoney · 02/11/2020 13:32

@Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear

I can never understand why it isn't pushed that two forms of contraception should be used until TTC. The number of accidental pregnancies then would be miniscule. Women could then state that no TTC would happen until marriage.
Exactly this! We were always taught at school to use two forms of contraception - one alone can fail, but two together, used properly, are highly unlikely to result in pregnancy.

The first person I ever had unprotected sex with was my husband - it really surprises me sometimes how quick some people are to ditch the contraception.

Joswis · 02/11/2020 13:43

I had a friend (married for all the good it did her) who ended up with nothing when her husband left.

She was the reason I never let myself be financially dependent on a man.

Get a job, as others have said. Any job. And married or not, next time don't make yourself vulnerable to a man.

Orcus · 02/11/2020 14:38

[quote LargeProsecco]@Orcus - the family law act for section 28 claims was introduced for anyone in a cohabitation relationship from 2006 onwards.

I moved in with my partner in 2005 -& would still have a claim if I wanted to make one now.

There's a tight timescale for claims (a year) under the act but it's still very much alive & kicking! [/quote]
I think I confused that with the old unions of habit and repute.

LargeProsecco · 02/11/2020 16:10

Yes, some people believe in "common-law wife" - a term which does not exist in the law.

As a bit of an aside, I don't think the law has caught up with changes in society - that's why section 28 was introduced, to give some protection to women who are not married.

Although I have a friend in England who was utterly screwed by being married - she'd sold her flat to provide the vast majority of the marital home deposit.

Unlike me in Scotland who kept mine & he has no claim on it under Scottish law, married or not Grin

S00LA · 02/11/2020 16:16

Although I have a friend in England who was utterly screwed by being married - she'd sold her flat to provide the vast majority of the marital home deposit

I can’t believe her solicitor advised her to do that!

LargeProsecco · 02/11/2020 16:26

They're still negotiating it as part of the divorce settlement.

In Scotland, she would have been far better off, irrespective of marriage or cohabitation. He would never had a claim on her flat.

And under cohabitation law here, you have to resolve it within a year. So none of this dragging on for years nonsense either.

Paintypot · 03/11/2020 09:50

@fridaysforfuturemum hasn't been back for a while. I really don't blame her.

This thread will have inevitably have knocked your mental health if you're still looking at it. As a way of finding confidence in the decisions you've made OP, I strongly suggest reading Liberating Motherhood by Vanessa Olrenshaw.

Financially and in terms of security, you already know that you've been naive so you don't need to hear all this on the thread. But, another spin on this (which this book will provide) would maybe help you feel a bit better.

Take care OP.
Goodluck with the job applications x

S00LA · 03/11/2020 11:54

@LargeProsecco

They're still negotiating it as part of the divorce settlement.

In Scotland, she would have been far better off, irrespective of marriage or cohabitation. He would never had a claim on her flat.

And under cohabitation law here, you have to resolve it within a year. So none of this dragging on for years nonsense either.

I’m not a lawyer but I don’t think that’s true. If she used the capital from the sale of her flat to fund the marital home then she has ‘brought it into the marriage’ and it becomes a marital asset.

It’s the same with an inheritance after marriage. If you keep it separate that’s fine. If you buy a family car / holiday / new sofa you have brought it into the marriage. You can’t try and get it back when you divorce.

She should have kept her flat and rented it out, so it stayed in the same form . She clearly didn’t take legal advice, which I suspect will be a very expensive mistake.

Holyrivolli · 03/11/2020 12:00

@S00LA. Your understanding is what I was told when I got a divorce with regard to the law in Scotland. If it’s a separate asset (house, inheritance etc) that was gained pre-marriage then it’s out of the pot but as soon as the money is used for a marital home (or even a house that was bought pre-marriage to live in together and later became the marital home) then it is a marital asset that can be divided.

fridaysforfuturemum · 03/11/2020 17:52

O.k
Thank-you to the mums who are giving me support, empathy and positive suggestions. I really appreciate it :)
I am finding it hard to talk to friends because like you have all said, they work, are stressed, busy and struggling as some are doing most of the 'emotional' workload of raising teenagers AND the domestic stuff. Not all but most are. And then there's Covid....
There's always this thing between SAHM's and working mothers.
It must be the same for SAHD's and working Dad's as well.
I know it's normal to do all these things but I am a hard worker, just didn't see why if I had a job too, I had to do the majority of the housework, childcare etc....
I actually thought that men and women would both work after kids are born and both would share the housework and carework equally!
And I tried to bring my son and daughter up to pitch in doing whatever was appropriate for their age to do, but my partner didn't think they should have to do anything. Obviously teenagers are argumentative don't want to do chores and this became a big issue.
For me, it's irrelevant in a way that we're not married.
We teach our kids to treat each other fairly, be part of a team, share and be kind to each other.
We teach them that women and men should be equal.
We teach them that money is not important as long as you have enough to live on, and that although a caring role is not payed well, it is just as essential as someone who earns a lot of money in a non caring role. Hence all the claps for the amazing carers and NHS staff.
My daughter (and son) is seeing that whoever stays home and looks after the children and dog, works in the home and volunteers in the community is taken for granted, not valued, not cared for or respected for it . Infact they are stupid and naive.
Yes, hindsight is a great thing.
Yes, I was stupid not to check my situation out and think through what would happen if things went wrong between us.
And yes, I know I was very lucky that we had the choice of one of us bieng at home..
But it was a joint decision.
Both our parents worked full time when we were kids. Both mothers had stressful jobs and we didn't see much of them. My Dad was amazing and did most of the domestic stuff. My partner's Dad wasn't home much. We were both shy and found school etc... hard as kids and teenagers. Your parenting is influenced by your life experiences and niether of us wanted that childhood for our kids.
We choose to have no spare money but have a less stressful family life. I thought me giving up my job to enable this to happen would be valued.
Why we didn't get married?
We both said we loved and trusted each other. There never seemed a need to.
To me, having two children with someone is more comittment than marriage. many marriages end in divorce. I guess we may have been influenced by a couple of friends who married after living for a long time together, and then divorced soon after and ridiculously thought...what if that happens to us?
Another reason (silly one really) is that if I had married my partner I would have had the exact same first and last name as his mum. Me and his mum did not get on....
Life is complicated and so are people.
My partner is a good man. I thought he was a 'new man'...
Obviously, shit happens and you have to just get on with it, but I still think that he should share his pension, (or offer a lump sum instead) savings and offer something that redresses the balance financially as he has a good job, good prospects and a good pension and half the house at the moment... whereas I have half a house! It's a moral thing.I will persevere!
And get a job a.s.a.p :)

OP posts:
Respectabitch · 03/11/2020 18:11

I know it's normal to do all these things but I am a hard worker, just didn't see why if I had a job too, I had to do the majority of the housework, childcare etc....
I actually thought that men and women would both work after kids are born and both would share the housework and carework equally!

They should. They absolutely should. They don't always, yes, and it can be tough to be assertive about this after you have already had a child. But, all due respect, if your children are both teens then for many years they have actually not needed particularly intensive care, and you could certainly have worked in some capacity, built your own pension, and still had plenty of time for the housework and supervising tradespeople.

Marriage doesn't have to matter in terms of the emotional aspect of a relationship. Of course there are unmarried couples who are more loving and committed than some married couples. But it absolutely matters legally and financially. It's the only real way that exists to say formally, we have decided to pool our resources and be treated, legally and financially, as a unit. If you opt not to do this, then legally you are single and all you have is what you, personally, legally own. If you make yourself financially dependent on someone without marriage, you are living on their charity in legal terms, and they are within their rights to withdraw it. I know, OP, you have had cause to learn this the hard way, but I think that sadly there are still too many people who make the same assumptions as you do that because you didn't personally feel you'd be more emotionally committed if you were married, that marriage therefore "didn't matter".

Frdd · 03/11/2020 18:19

You didn’t need to take his name if you married though. If that was all stopping you.

AnxiousAspen · 03/11/2020 18:25

I made the same mistake op. I was completely ignorant. When our daughter was born he earned four times my salary, we both worked long hours, he had no interest in childcare. I gave up my job and I hate myself for it but I really had no idea how vulnerable I was making myself or how controlling he would turn out to be. I co-own the house at least but have no idea how to leave. I'm hoping I will find a job soon and then will be able to sort out a place, but it's tough out there and I've not worked properly for 6 years so I don't value my prospects highly. It is the biggest regret of my life and I wish I'd known better. I'm going to make sure my daughter does at least. I would hate her to ever feel trapped like this. It eats away at me.

vanillandhoney · 03/11/2020 18:26

Why we didn't get married? We both said we loved and trusted each other. There never seemed a need to.

Surely loving and trusting each other is an excellent reason TO get married? You wouldn't marry someone you didn't love or trust, surely?

To me, having two children with someone is more commitment than marriage.

Having children is a commitment to the child - nothing more.

Another reason (silly one really) is that if I had married my partner I would have had the exact same first and last name as his mum. Me and his mum did not get on....

You don't have to change your name.

Obviously, shit happens and you have to just get on with it, but I still think that he should share his pension, (or offer a lump sum instead) savings and offer something that redresses the balance financially as he has a good job, good prospects and a good pension and half the house at the moment... whereas I have half a house! It's a moral thing.I will persevere!

Unfortunately, you won't get anywhere. You're not married and therefore you have zero claim over his pension or savings. Legally, you are two single people and neither of you has any responsibility to the other. He has to pay for his children going forward - that's it.

Brunt0n · 03/11/2020 18:30

I would really like a lot of women to read this thread before they give up their financial independence

Frdd · 03/11/2020 18:30

Obviously, shit happens and you have to just get on with it, but I still think that he should share his pension, (or offer a lump sum instead) savings and offer something that redresses the balance financially as he has a good job, good prospects and a good pension and half the house at the moment... whereas I have half a house! It's a moral thing.I will persevere!

You’ll get nowhere. He will tell you to get lost. You have no right to anything. If you wanted rights to anything you should’ve got married.

I don’t get the thought process you’re following I really don’t. You’ve had legal advice and you know that advice says you can’t do anything so what exactly do you think persevering will get you? He could end up reporting you for harassment if you’re not careful in how you persevere.

mrsmuddlepies · 03/11/2020 18:49

We choose to have no spare money but have a less stressful family life. I thought me giving up my job to enable this to happen would be valued
It does seem very indulgent to not contribute to the family finances because you wanted to be at home for the dog and secondary age children. You are going to have to get your skates on to contribute the right number of years to qualify for your state pension.
I feel sorry for you but do be practical going forward. it is an attractive idea to stay at home and let someone else provide financially for you as long as you can find someone who is prepared to shoulder the financial burden. I think in the long run you will find it satisfying becoming financially independent. You sound capable, you will cope.

TinyVictories · 03/11/2020 19:19

Morally I agree with you OP, but if he agreed with you on the value if your contribution he would have already offered to share those things. It sounds like he's already rewritten it in his mind that 'you' chose to stay home and live off his wage, so if anything you owe him for all your support. From what I've observed I don't think this is uncommon. I feel you'll just be wasting time and energy better spent on moving forward. If you really want to do it, I'd write down all your points and arguments about the morals of the situation and give it one go. Then let it go. I really don't think he sounds like he's going to listen let alone change his stance on this.