How bad is this? Not so bad? Quite bad?

[Fantasisa]

I feel like I have no perspective anymore on the issues DH and I have.

For background, we are both strong personalities. He thinks all our relationship problems are my fault. I think they are least 50/50.

This week, the kids were upstairs in bed asleep before their first day back at school. Just before we were due to go to bed (so it was v late) we had an argument downstairs about who was supposed to be picking them up from school on their first day - not a loud one - as we had crossed wires about who was scheduled to do it.

He was going out cycling for the day with friends and I was going into work. In the end I said crossly that I'd change my work hours and collect them and then I went off to bed.

He then started sending me screenshots of our messages to 'prove' he was right about me being the one due to collect them. They didn't prove anything, I think it was genuinely crossed wires.

He then comes upstairs and shouts at me so loudly accusing me of having a massive go at him over nothing like I always do apparently, that I'm a fucking nightmare etc etc. I repeatedly told him not to shout and not to wake the children. The children both, of course, woke up. They weren't scared, they are sadly used to us falling out, they were tired. They were both, of course, tired the next day on their first day back at school and I felt so guilty.

How bad is it that he woke up the children with his shouting? He blamed me for getting cross about the arrangements and said I was happy to shout at him - but we were downstairs then and I wouldn't say it was shouting, more cross about the diary issue.

Input welcome.

I spent my whole childhood listening to my parents arguing; my sleep disturbed by their shouting. And everyone thought that we lived in such a lovely family - little did they know. And some unwritten rule told me I should not let on how bad it was but just tolerate it in silence.

Those nights disturb me even now as an adult. Do not do this to your children - it is hell on earth for them.

Why don’t you have a shared diary? Surely with multiple children and all their appointments and events and stuff, you need one. That is where we start this conversation, I think. Is it because your DH doesn’t want one / doesn’t see the need to put in the effort of maintaining it on his part?

I’m sorry, I agree with others that this is a horrible environment for kids (I also experienced it)

You have confirmed what I thought though, you wanted to voice frustration but then move on and fix it (how healthy couples deal with issues).

He wanted to prove you were wrong so he didn’t have to change a thing and you had to apologise.

You will never be able to have a healthy relationship with a man like that.

It does sound pretty bad OP. Not DV bad of course, but a situation that needs to change. Relationship counselling could help but your OH needs to accept his share of responsibility for your troubles. He is totally out of order to shout at you over something so silly and especially to wake up your poor DC.

All couples argue sometimes, that's normal, but ideally it's done still with respectful tones and if not, well out of the earshot of kids. I find even if DH and I disagree quite mildly over something in front of DD (5) she finds it a bit upsetting and tries to change the subject or tell off whichever of us she feels is attacking the other. Your DC will find this situation destabilising and miserable and you seem aware of this, but your OH doesn't.

You need to change something, but whether it's LTB or just getting some outside help is something only you can judge.

The fact that only one of you could (as far as I can tell) read the messages objectively and realise there was genuine ambiguity - like saying "oh, you thought i meant xyz here because i phrased it like this instead of like that" - suggests you're not communicating on the same level at all.
And obviously the shouting and waking kids is wrong, you can be angry at a situation quietly! Not being able to physically control himself is a red flag to me...

Can I just add that Relate or couples counselling might help. They will speak to you about resolving conflict and listening to each other.

Oh OP your relationship sound awful.

He went out cycling knowing that doing so would either cause you to have work problems or his children being picked up by someone and made you solve it.

I suspect you and your children are constantly making sure he is ok

Wow so many judgmental people on here who never argue with their partners! 🙄 I bet they’re the same types boasting about their wonderful lives on social media. The situation described is hardly going to result in the DC being traumatised! 🙄 Everyone argues OP and I agree that your ‘D’H was completely in the wrong for going upstairs to shout at you when the DC were sleeping! The fact he continued to try to prove that he was in the right is not acceptable either. He sounds very selfish and I think you need to have a very serious talk with him. If he doesn’t change then I would start making plans to leave.

I definitely think he was out of order, not you. He should have climbed down after you offered to change work hours and thanked you, not escalated it by trying to prove you were in the wrong. He shouldn't have shouted so loud it woke the DC.

Wouldn't other couples argue about that?

No, because any reasonable parent would understand that whoever's fault the mix-up was, work trumps cycling.

Couples do argue in front of their dc, but it's about the frequency and the level of arguing. Expressing a bit of irritation- fair enough. Yelling and shouting- not ok, especially if it's frequent.

Your point of what is normal is so off kilter that you are adjusting your working hours to meet your childcare obligations, rather than him changing his hobby.

His unpaid hobby is taking precedence over your paid work. That's so fucked up.

And I'd imagine that the moment you accepted that as normal, all the other shit has flowed from that.

He's horrible and your children are a slowly boiled frog experiment.

This is not about whether other couples argue (yes, we do sometimes) or whether your children are being affected (they are, although most children will probably witness their parents arguing from time to time - it isn't necessarily hugely damaging. Parents argue, parents then model how to reconcile and apologise etc so their children learn the same skills) but the fact that your DH made no attempt to solve or discuss the mutual problem and continued the argument only to try to prove you were wrong.

My DH would put the children's needs first every time, as would I, and we would discuss it until we decided on a reasonable solution. We wouldn't shout late at night when we knew they were asleep either (their needs being put before ours).

You’re all in a bad way OP.

Every time I read on here how damaging it is for children for their parents to divorce and end up with step parents I remember my DSD telling me how nice it was she never heard us arguing and she used to have nightmares remembering her mum shouting at her dad.

It’s not normal or healthy for people to shout at each other so often their kids are used to it. Hobbies never come before work. If you two can’t communicate in a healthier way you really have to split up.

I feel sad for you @Baws if you think every relationship is like OP describes hers. It’s not normal. How the fuck can you say children aren’t traumatised by witnessing their parents fighting? They are. There are posters on here saying they were. If your relationship features regular arguing you need to be honest about the affect that’s having on your kids if you have them. Don’t use the OP to make yourself feel better about your life.

He was out of line completely, children shouldn't hear that, and also if he's just dossing at a hobby all day while you're working, he should be the one that collects the kids IMO.

It should not have got so loud because only One of you had a valid point.
If your kids are not collected from school the consequences are pretty big.

Mix up or not, "I wanna ride my bike" is not on a par with "work" .

@lazylinguist

Wouldn't other couples argue about that?

No, because any reasonable parent would understand that whoever's fault the mix-up was, work trumps cycling.

Couples do argue in front of their dc, but it's about the frequency and the level of arguing. Expressing a bit of irritation- fair enough. Yelling and shouting- not ok, especially if it's frequent.

The thing is there is a reason why. The OP argues about it. She was angry and frustrated. Not at the miscommunication but at the fact she knew 1- her DH would never accept to act as a grown up and a partner and accept to pick his dcs Cycling and his wants come first 2– he would not accept some of it was his responsibility too.

I’m not surprised the OP had an argument. It wasn’t about the miscommunication. It is about his careless, selfish, I’m always right attitude!
And who would accept that sort of behaviour really?.

Is he one of those men who were alright before midlife cycling seems to change them into a bit of an arsehole? I know it sounds ridiculous, but cycling widows are a thing and absence is only one part of it. I suspect some men have angry "traits" beforehand but cycling or iron man competitions (friend of mine's husband) seems to bring full on rage out of them.

@Fantasisa I grew up in a very happy home. I would say I heard my parents arguing twice my whole life. I asked if they ever argued and they did but it was kept very quiet or parked to discuss the issue until we were out the house at hobbies etc.

That’s what in my opinion good parents do.

Realise that their argument and need to yell at each other doesn’t trump your children’s well being. Your children sadly sound very damaged if they don’t even blink when they’re woken by you rowing and shouting. Shocking way to bring them up.

He has always been into cycling - it caused issues when the DC were little too as it is just so time consuming. They are older now so it generally doesn't impact as much.

DH's parents NEVER argued apparently so I don't think he has ever seen any kind of conflict resolution and my DM always let DF have his way so it could be argued that I push back more because I don't ever want to be my DM.

So your dh took off cycling in the morning expecting you to sort it.
Did he offer at all?
Did he get in touch to see if things were sorted?
Did he offer a compromise?
Did he offer a solution?

I'm guessing the answer to those 4 questions are all no.
If so, he's not a decent father and a pretty poor partner without considering the shouting that woke them up.

@Fantasisa, pushing back when someone is being an arse or walking over your boundaries isn’t bad.

I would actually argue it’s better than seeing one parent always pacifying and giving up (what my mum did too and it took me a long time to realise I was doing the same...)

I've never argued with my ex or my current dp in front of my dc.

The most thats ever happened is getting slightly annoyed, then saying "sorry, I'm just getting arsey because I'm frustrated, can we just sort this, how about you do x and I do y, and next time we abc" and other person says "you're right, can we modify y like this, I agree on ABC, let's get on with it" and then we move on. After we've dealt with the immediate problem we come back to say sorry etc. Its just not an issue.

Shouting and blaming and berating etc, perhaps that's normal to some folk, but my parents absolutely never did that, and it isnt a feature of any of my relationships.

Slamming around the house and waking children from sleep with shouting and name-calling because of a planning error that mildly threatened someone's cycling jaunt... sorry but there's no excuse for that. He sounds like a child.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. In a relationship it's the everyday unasked for kindnesses that count. Making the DPs life better.

Do you do things for him just because it's a nice thing to do and visa versa?

Are you affectionate?

If not stop now. It's done.

Yes we do, @Wallywobbles. But we can get very entrenched in our positions when we disagree which is so very draining.

@Fantasisa we can get very entrenched in our positions when we disagree which is so very draining.

If it helps, you're not alone. My DH and I are also very affectionate a lot of the time but we have the same issue when we disagree -- "entrenched" is a perfect way to put it. It's so hard to snap out of that mindset mid-argument (even though it seems so petty after the fact). It's draining and damaging.

No real advice, I just wanted to let you know you're not alone. DH and I are currently in marriage counselling, which has helped loads but we obviously haven't graduated yet.