How bad is this? Not so bad? Quite bad?

[Fantasisa]

I feel like I have no perspective anymore on the issues DH and I have.

For background, we are both strong personalities. He thinks all our relationship problems are my fault. I think they are least 50/50.

This week, the kids were upstairs in bed asleep before their first day back at school. Just before we were due to go to bed (so it was v late) we had an argument downstairs about who was supposed to be picking them up from school on their first day - not a loud one - as we had crossed wires about who was scheduled to do it.

He was going out cycling for the day with friends and I was going into work. In the end I said crossly that I'd change my work hours and collect them and then I went off to bed.

He then started sending me screenshots of our messages to 'prove' he was right about me being the one due to collect them. They didn't prove anything, I think it was genuinely crossed wires.

He then comes upstairs and shouts at me so loudly accusing me of having a massive go at him over nothing like I always do apparently, that I'm a fucking nightmare etc etc. I repeatedly told him not to shout and not to wake the children. The children both, of course, woke up. They weren't scared, they are sadly used to us falling out, they were tired. They were both, of course, tired the next day on their first day back at school and I felt so guilty.

How bad is it that he woke up the children with his shouting? He blamed me for getting cross about the arrangements and said I was happy to shout at him - but we were downstairs then and I wouldn't say it was shouting, more cross about the diary issue.

Input welcome.

The children both, of course, woke up. They weren't scared, they are sadly used to us falling out

Not normal.
And really quite sad.

DH not going cycling was never even mentioned by me, it simply wouldn't be an option.

LTB. His hobby is more important than your job? His need to shout is more important than his children's sleep?

Seriously LTB.

The shit things here are

You don't shout so loud that it wakes your kids
Cycling doesn't trump working
Your kids are use to raised voices

Your poor kids. Shouty, aggressive parents who cant control themselves, a dad who thinks going cycling is more important than school and an angry passive-aggressive mum. Its not a healthy environment to grow up in. If you are right, and they're not scared because they are so accustomed to you two screaming at each other, well frankly thats even more sad, and they are already quite damaged.

You and your partner need to sort yourselves out, whether that means splitting up or growing up.

I can see both sides.

You need to get organised OP. A planner that you both check each weekend setting out the commitments for the coming week. Then there can be no crossed wires.

You were both annoyed and by going off upstairs he didn't get the opportunity to get his pov in and so he shouted when upstairs. He obviously shouldn't have done it but you should have both stayed downstairs until the disagreement was finished imo.

That said, if these arguments are as regular as you suggest you need to address the underlying issues before they really affect your DC.

But you already know the impact on them OP. It is you who has written the about the impact. You either chose to continue to expose them to it or leave.

To be honest no me and DP wouldnt have argued in that situation. Our conversation would have gone ' whos picking up the DC tomorrow' 'you DP, Im workinh' 'shit, i was supposed to be cycling with my mates, oh well'

Of course your DH not cycling was an option.

Ltb. Everyone will be better off.

Fucking putting a hobby before picking up his kids when the alternative is someone adjusting their work schedule?! What a cunt.

Your still writing posts trying to determine if you were right in the argument. But thats kind of irrelevent. The fact of the matter is that your DC are so exposed to their parents arguing that they werent scared, at the end of the day its clearly not working

@Venicelover I went upstairs to bed because I had said I would sort something out at work - leave early or similar. So to me, it was over and I the one in charge of fixing it.

I'm normally very organised but we don't have a shared calendar. The arrangements changed a couple of times which is how I think the wires got crossed.

@Fantasisa

I get that. I'm not really sure what I would do differently about this situation even with hindsight. The mix up about collection was discovered - we both thought it was the other person who got it wrong - I felt very strongly that I had to be in work and the mix up was very stressful and because there was an impasse I had to offer to be the one to find the solution.

Wouldn't other couples argue about that? The issue is surely the shouting and waking up of the children?

The idea that you were at an impasse and you were responsible for solving it, really speaks to the fucked dynamic in your relationship.

Myself and dp don't argue about that, no. Happy, functional couples are on the same team. They're always trying to help each other and smooth each others way.

My dp isn't even my dc father, and he would drop/has dropped everything (including cycling! He is a cyclist!!!) to collect my dc from anywhere, at any time. Because we both know the dc come first, and we both know our home can't be happy if the children suffer, so we just get on with it and support each other. Never in a million years would we have words over it like you describe.

Your relationship isn't healthy, get counselling or end it. The kids are bearing the brunt.

@DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon Yes

DH not going cycling was never even mentioned by me, it simply wouldn't be an option.

I completely agree with @MrsTerryPratchett's post:

LTB. His hobby is more important than your job? His need to shout is more important than his children's sleep?

Seriously LTB.

I think the fact that you need to determine whether you were 'reasonable' in expecting your husband to see this as a joint problem, shows the extent to which he has set out his stall as being the hard-done by one in the marriage. You say he thinks your problems as a couple are all down to you. I would call his bluff on that and tell him that if he finds you such a nightmare to be with, it's time to end things and he can live a better life without you. I don't think that's what he will get at all. But I think you should put that to him.

So you had moved on to fixing the problem and he could not move on from why it was actually your fault because that would mean he was in the wrong for not considering changing his arrangement. You were stuck in a losing position because unless he forced you to admit you had made the mistake he was obviously the unreasonable one for not cancelling a hobby over a job.

I can tell you from experience that it is scary hearing your parents arguing, and for your husband to be shouting so loud that he actually woke the children up, things have obviously got pretty bad.
Just to be clear, he is the a-hole here - he is the one shouting, he is the one putting his hobby before your work, he is the one actually being quite bullying about it all.
We all have busy schedules, there is always going to be the potential for a misunderstanding or a timetable clash, it's how you deal with. it that counts. And if he thinks the way to deal with this is to shout and bully, over something this trivial, then there clearly are bigger problems going on.
You've lost perspective on what is a reasonable way to behave because he's gaslighting you into thinking this is acceptable. It isn't.

@Lipz

The shit things here are

You don't shout so loud that it wakes your kids
Cycling doesn't trump working
Your kids are use to raised voices

OP,

The clarity is that your husband thinks cycling is more important than family life.

The clariry is that your children are so damaged already from this environment.

I mean this kindly and gently to you, but you are in for the greatest shit show when your children get to their teenage years and their huge emotional damage starts to impact them and their lives, if not earlier.

Expect emotional problems, mental health problems and anxiety.

These are the problems that children present with reared in abusive homes.

You obviously care deeply for your children as you are posting here.

You need to look at your options.

They clearly only have one parent that cares about them.

Protect them.

@Trisolaris Yes! I think that is why he sent me random screenshots of messages that don't confirm either way - he wanted and needed to show his version was right.

I don't think either of us intended the mix up, it happened because the arrangements had changed, but it was down to me to fix it the next morning because he was already up and off out on his bike when I started messaging friends to see if they could collect them instead.

Don’t assume your children weren’t upset at what they heard. They are generally very perceptive and pick up on atmospheres a lot more than we give them credit for. Them listening to you two rowing is emotionally abusive for them. It sounds like your husband likes to point score and likes to prove you wrong. You deserve better and the children definitely do. 💐

One of the catalysts for me leaving xh was realising the impact of shouting arguments on my dc, even the dog was affected. Sort it out or leave, it's no environment for children

As a little girl my dad was in and out of my life, he was a cheating scumbag and everytime my mum took him back they would spend hours every night arguing thinking I couldn’t hear it. I spent hours crying at night and verbally praying out loud to god that my dad would just leave and my mum would stop shouting (I’m an atheist now btw). It lead me to have warped views on relationships and I had a lot of toxic and dangerous escapades in my teens that I blame on that situation. In the grand scheme of things you either repair your relationship properly or you put your children first and split up before it psychologically scars them. I vowed to never give my child the traumatic childhood I had and I hope you take on board all the other suggestions.

@purplesky18 That is sobering, thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

How do 'normal' couples disagree then? I don't think I have any idea what normal couples do. Do people not argue in front of the kids ever? Obviously I know normal couples don't wake their kids up arguing.

DH not going cycling was never even mentioned by me

Why not? Surely it should have been suggested as you then go on to say:

I felt very strongly that I had to be in work and the mix up was very stressful

Why is he not supportive of your job OP?

I think work commitments trump cycling, even if it's with the Queen FFS! How do your kids feel knowing their dad is effectively moaning about having to pick them up? Charming!!

As for your suggestion of a shared calendar - a piece of paper on the fridge will suffice - everyone can see it and it's there, updated every Sunday evening - everyone knows what's what - simple.

As for continuted arguments - have you tried emailing him? and I don't mean argumentative rants, I mean talking to him or getting him to talk calmly about why you're arguing so much? is it stress-related? are you both happy? are you still close emotionally/physically? can you make some time for both of you to discover the reasons why you're shouting and being so defensive?

For me the issue here isnt the shouting as such, it's his attitude.

The fact he always think you are ALWAYS WRONG (and he is always right of course).
The fcat that, even when the ssue has been solved (by you), it's ok for him to continue berating you and having a go to 'prove his point'.

It makes me wonder how much his attitude to any issue is creating the problem. In particular, you 'shouting' or 'arguing with him' is actually simply not letting him walk all over you. Not being a wall flower isn't a bad thing in my book!

Have a look at his general behaviour. How often is he the one to create said argument because his first answer is that you must be wrong and ot's ok to for him to just assume wo ever listening to your pov (or put himself into question)?

It really doesnt sit well with me and I would wonder how often you are actually 'in the wrong' and how often you think you are in the wrong because you are made to feel like it rather than because you are (Been told you are wrong all the time has that effect...).
Fwiw in this case, I am stonished his answer wasnt automatically 'Oh shit. It's just a hobby and I am work so I will get organised around that'. The issue about miscommunication (if ever there was one...) is another issue iyswim.

DH not going cycling was never even mentioned by me, it simply wouldn't be an option.

I am not surprised you were cross! You have a DH basically saying he thinks he is above you, his needs and wants are above your and you don't matter in his eyes. Just HE matters!!!

You do realise that he basically has told you to f* off many many times when he was asked to step up as a father or a partner than you don't even dare asking him to now??

[quote Fantasisa]@purplesky18 That is sobering, thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

How do 'normal' couples disagree then? I don't think I have any idea what normal couples do. Do people not argue in front of the kids ever? Obviously I know normal couples don't wake their kids up arguing.[/quote]
I don't think there is a set standard for normal arguing in a relationship however if it crosses the boundary to the point it is waking your children up and they are 'used' to it then that is a line crossed too far.

DP and I of course argue in front of DC every so often (it is never hyper aggressive and it is not a regular occurance). However there is a stark difference to witnessing your parents have a small row over a burnt dinner for example, than there is witnessing your parents relentlessly shout every other night while you lay awake begging for it to stop, you need to figure out which category your relationship is starting to fall in.