Always bailing out DB – WWYD?

[WagnersFourthSymphony]

This is a first world problem so I feel bad even asking about it. DH and I are comfortably off. My brother, who lives in another country, isn’t. He is self-employed and his business hasn’t been doing well, even before Covid. He is a recovering alcoholic who let things slide. His wife, who kept their finances under control, finally washed her hands of him ten years ago and I can’t say I blame her. He has been with his new partner since his post-divorce rehab and she has helped him two or three times to get back on the wagon, the last time with an ultimatum. As far as I know he’s been TT for a good couple of years.

Nevertheless, his business isn’t making ends meet. Or something. It involves him making big cash layouts which he can’t always recover from his clients – the weather gets in the way, or the client goes back to England. (I don’t understand why he doesn’t get payment on account, but that’s beside the point.)

So every six months or so he asks us for a big bailout. These are always couched as loans but of course there is never anything formal (that would be unthinkable) and since his divorce we have never received a penny back, nor do we expect to.

It’s coming to a lot of money over the years. I honestly don’t know what would become of him if we didn’t help. His partner works hard, but in a low wage job. But I’m starting to feel resentful. Perhaps it’s my problem rather than his? I feel as if I’m going without things I’d like (a new car, for example) to help him out, though the things I’m going without aren’t things I actually need.

No other members of the family are aware of this. I don’t know if even his partner knows about it. DH is an absolute hero. If he resents it at all, he doesn’t show it. He just shrugs and says we do what we can, and we’d do it for any other member of the family too. And have.

But I feel my brother is taking the piss. He’s always resented the different life I’ve had ever since I did well at school, and this feels like his revenge. DH has suggested asking him man to man what steps he’s taking to put his business on a more practical footing, but that might appear overly aggressive. (DB is thin-skinned.) It’s not as if we can’t afford the subs, which look as if they will have to continue forever.

We are enabling him. I am reluctant to challenge him for risk of pushing him over the edge.

What would you do?

Are you mad, just stop giving him money. Why on earth do you feel obliged to fund his existence? You're enabling him to keep failing, you're really not helping him at all. I'm fascinated by the dynamics here – you see yourself as the successful one, and as long as you're supporting him in his failure, it stays that way. It's all very odd.

You're a kind decent caring person who values family.
Your DB isn't.
It's hard to wrap your head around how others can think completely different than you do.
He sees you as a soft touch and manipulates your feelings to use you.
Fear, Obligation and Guilt FOG

If you think about it, he uses everyone he's around. You, his partner. He's never made his own way in life. His first wife left him but he managed to find another woman to carry him.

These type feel very entitled to what others have and feel hard done in life.

Hed make a lot more just working a steady job, any job but he feels too good for that.

It's interesting how people end up tiptoeing around people like your DB afraid, who knows why even though you're the one being used.

As hard as it is, cut him off. He needs to go get a normal job like most people do in life.

He would find it intrusive if we asked more about his finances.

I'm sorry, I just don't get this. I cannot imagine the circumstances under which I would essentially pay for an, albeit close, family member to live and not feel I could 'intrude' into his financial affairs.

Privacy is the privilege of independence.

And it really isn't anything to be proud of, to be it's always felt like a bit of a success to keep him calm and even with large cash subsidies.

It's enabling him, preventing him from feeling the consequences of what are essentially his life choices. And thus dampening down his ability to learn life lessons.

Please, put down the burden of being a sibling to a 'golden child'

I'd get the client's feet nailed to the floor before ordering the bricks, but that's just me being brutal.

This would not be what I call brutal, it would simply be ver basic good business practice. We know that because without it, you don't have a business. What kind of customer does not actually pay for materials, never mind for the work ?

Maybe a one off, but this doesn't make sense as a regular occurrence. Unless, of course, it's just a hobby and his income is from elsewhere.

I've never said this before, but I would honestly encourage you to get yourself some therapy to understand all these excuses you are telling yourself and untangle your family relationships.

the menace behind it,

A good therapist would help you unpack this, to get clarity about what you are fear

Invest in some therapy and free yourself of the burden of fear, obligation and guilt. Free yourself. All the best

I've never said this before, but I would honestly encourage you to get yourself some therapy to understand all these excuses you are telling yourself and untangle your family relationships.

I agree with this – something that has stood out for me in your posts OP are some of the assumptions you're working on, which to me as an outsider seem unusual and unwarranted.

E.g.

"It’s not as if we can’t afford the subs, which look as if they will have to continue forever."

I'd get the client's feet nailed to the floor before ordering the bricks, but that's just me being brutal. (as a poster says above, this is normal, not brutal!)

You seem to feel a huge sense of obligation which you don't need to.

I can understand where you are coming from. You have supported/enabled him for a long time and you are worried about the consequences if you stopped. However, do you really feel that you should continue to sub him like this indefinitely? I have no idea how much he asks for each time but could you reduce the amount he requires by about 10% for example and tell him that you are not able to continue supporting him forever. Each time he asks reduce it by a slightly more, in increments. That way you are not cutting him off dry but gradually reducing what you are sending him over time. He will then need to face up to the fact that he somehow needs to review his own life to enable him to be self sufficient.

Why would just not stop straight away if you’re feeling resentful? A simple, “no can do, you still owe me £50,000” (for example)
Then if he carries on with “you can afford it”, I’d say “no, I don’t have any money as you owe me £50,000”
That’s without mentioning anything about him paying you back.

And feeling like it’s intrusive to ask him about his finances??!?!! He clearly don’t find it intrusive to ask you for money.

Its time for him to know what you already do: that having a good life doesn’t mean you’re the one who should give it to him.

OP, you are deep in the FOG. You think you are "horrible" but your brother deserves handouts and forgiveness as infinitum because "he's family" and it's somehow your fault that he's unsuccessful, proud and resentful of you. I

Wake up! You are HIS family too. What does he do for you that honours that bond? Fuck all! I bet he only contacts you when he wants another handout. Am I right?

I think you're deluding yourself about your finances too. You stress how affordable the cash gifts are because you are so "comfortably off". But you also need a new car and can't afford it.

As a PP said, actually no one is happy, not even your brother. So stop.

I have read your update @WagnersFourthSymphony, and I struggle to comprehend how your son is third or lower in the pecking order when it comes to your will.
You've said as much in your statement above. He will get what is left over after your ungrateful brother and your sister get what you think they should. BEFORE your own son.

If I was your son, I'd be really hurt by that. I'd be hurt beyond to have thought that my own mother saw fit to write it into her will that I was to be given whatever was left over (residue) after my uncle and aunt had their share of the pot.
I don't care if it is £10 or a million pounds, it's the prioritising that my own mother wouldn't have seen fit to put me first.

If you can't see that as being part of the overall problem, then you're more blinkered than I first thought.
You're currently giving your brother money that could be going towards your son. Your son should be your priority. Your DH should be your priority. Your brother not. Your sister not.

If you have the means and knowing full well your relationship with your DB is transactional in nature only (he only likes you for your money) - then put him on a monthly stipend. Not enough to support him, but enough to show you are helping. It will also allow you to decline further requests. Just put him on an "nuisance value" allowance.

@LookItsMeAgain totally agree. If you aren't careful, your son will end up resenting you. You're married, and you need to be focusing yourself time and efforts around your husband and son.

It seems you are stuck in a perpetual cycle reliving your childhood and have never moved on from it.

This really isn't healthy. It's not, and you know it but are afraid to do anything about it. As a result, you are just sinking deeper into resentment.

I don't say this to be unkind, but it's time to move on now.

I appreciate that not everyone has read all my posts.

Rest assured that I could afford a car if I needed one. I was using that as an example. I am frugal by nature and wouldn't buy a car unless I needed to, and I wouldn't pay for it out of capital.

I am certainly prioritising my husband and son. You who criticise me for considering a legacy to my sister clearly have no idea how a will is constructed - legacies are mentioned first - and you certainly have no idea what's in my estate or how much it's worth. The legacies are small in relation to the whole estate, though I won't go into details. Nor do you seem to grasp the difference between capital and income. So you're getting a bit carried away with the accusations there. This is no different from giving money to charities or political causes, which we also do. Though according to most people, DB is a rather less deserving cause!

I've outlined above how we propose to deal with it. I'll think about the suggestion of therapy but things aren't really that bad. I'm aware of FOG, and maybe shouldn't have mentioned the childhood stuff, as it's irrelevant. And I've maybe overstated how often he's asked for help. I hope anyone who is able to would help their DB if he hit a crisis - it's just that with him, these crises are happening more often so I'm calling a halt to it. Unless of course his house burns down or something like that.

Thanks again to all who have troubled to comment.

Harsh, some of these responses.

In DB's defence...

1. Incredibly skilled arts and crafts jobs pay absolutely 0. He won't have known or believed that when he trained. Other people probably don't believe him now. Or realised it when he worked his ass off on every commission.

1. No one teaches business skills either, which you can't just pick up. He needs a contractor to do the books, which apparently he is doing. Bigger builders and clients still see artisans coming, though, and take advantage.

1. Now he's too old to do something else (really?) which leaves him up a gum tree.

1. Giving up drink is heroic and needs encouragement and support.

None of that is his fault, or yours. But healthy families help each other.

I guess you're thinking, OP, that you're on a rather more one-sided street than you'd like. Maybe say so. If you're hurt, say so - really.

If you suspect DB's taking the piss, offer small instalments - his reaction should tell you a lot.

I'd be inclined to say to DB that you have a cash-flow problem as a result of Covid, and could he lend you £500, just for a couple of weeks?

Would like to know if this sense of 'familial obligation' goes both ways.

You are "frugal" by nature but appear to be resigned to DB spending your money without any consultation in advance.

Textbook FOG in my book.

But you are an adult, it's up to you who you allow to spend your money.

How would you deal with a child who ran up a significant debt and just expected you to bail them out?

Honestly, just stop giving him money. I know it sounds hard but you are enabling him. I'd he starts drinking again its not your fault just like its not your fault he started drinking.

They could come a point where you can't afford it or your circumstances change and having some savings is vital. How would you feel then?

@FinallyHere

You are "frugal" by nature but appear to be resigned to DB spending your money without any consultation in advance.

Textbook FOG in my book.

But you are an adult, it's up to you who you allow to spend your money.

How would you deal with a child who ran up a significant debt and just expected you to bail them out?

Heh, yes, that's why I'm a bit resentful. I think: I could have spent that money on X or Y but instead it's going to DB. I wouldn't have spent it on X or Y, so I admit I'm being irrational.

It's not that he's spending wildly like a child. It's rather that he's not good at managing money so we will try to encourage him to get help with that, unwelcome though that help may be.

we will try to encourage him to get help with that, unwelcome though that help may be.

Fair enough.

The most efficient way to 'encourage' him would be to turn off the tap of free money he is currently relying on.

If you are really not prepared to take that route ....

May I ask what culture you're from OP?

This just seems very unusual to me!

@MrsSpookyM

May I ask what culture you're from OP?

This just seems very unusual to me!

Good old boring middle class white British, with a touch of colonials. DH is good old fashioned working class British.

I guess our respective cultures - like most cultures - aren't as monolithic as people imagine. It's values rather than cultures that we share.

In your family ideal, should sisters have to tiptoe round their brothers?
You could try the old trick for getting back a fiver from someone who owes you by asking for "that £10 you owe me." They are fairly likely to say "It's only a fiver..." But probably wont work with large figures.
(I have to tiptoe round mine though, and am still resentful of how he repeatedly got DF to invest in his failing business.)

TheSparklyPussycat
In your family ideal, should sisters have to tiptoe round their brothers?
Of course not. No one should have to tiptoe, unless perhaps there are special needs. If the dice had tumbled differently I might have been the golden child.* I'm probably being unfair in painting him as such, and suggesting he has this sense of entitlement. It's just a hunch. And I know plenty of families where this tiptoeing never happens, but DB was 'delicate', so...
My parents would have insisted, with some justice, that they treated us all equally. That wasn't DB's impression, though.

*If I'd been born a boy. And the only boy.

Could you not have a word with him regarding his business

Along the lines of telling him he is obviously great at what he does but if he is running the business properly then he shouldn’t need to keep being short of money.
Then tell him that it isn’t a criticism that he can’t seem to get paid for the work he does but if he needs to, then employ someone on a p/t basis to chase the invoices and get the money in. Leaving him to get on with the work side of things.
They can put in place the T&Cs that take the money as a deposit to cover his big outlays.

Tell him to look at it through his clients eyes.

They can’t do what he can do so they hire him.
He has difficulty on the finance side (Chasing payments etc) so he hires someone to do the thing he can’t

Oliversmumsarmy - yes, absolutely, this is what we're planning to do.

Oliversmumsarmy

Apologies if that sounded brusque - wasn't meant to! You are very astute on this and I appreciate your input. Feeling validated, so thanks!