Always bailing out DB – WWYD?

[WagnersFourthSymphony]

This is a first world problem so I feel bad even asking about it. DH and I are comfortably off. My brother, who lives in another country, isn’t. He is self-employed and his business hasn’t been doing well, even before Covid. He is a recovering alcoholic who let things slide. His wife, who kept their finances under control, finally washed her hands of him ten years ago and I can’t say I blame her. He has been with his new partner since his post-divorce rehab and she has helped him two or three times to get back on the wagon, the last time with an ultimatum. As far as I know he’s been TT for a good couple of years.

Nevertheless, his business isn’t making ends meet. Or something. It involves him making big cash layouts which he can’t always recover from his clients – the weather gets in the way, or the client goes back to England. (I don’t understand why he doesn’t get payment on account, but that’s beside the point.)

So every six months or so he asks us for a big bailout. These are always couched as loans but of course there is never anything formal (that would be unthinkable) and since his divorce we have never received a penny back, nor do we expect to.

It’s coming to a lot of money over the years. I honestly don’t know what would become of him if we didn’t help. His partner works hard, but in a low wage job. But I’m starting to feel resentful. Perhaps it’s my problem rather than his? I feel as if I’m going without things I’d like (a new car, for example) to help him out, though the things I’m going without aren’t things I actually need.

No other members of the family are aware of this. I don’t know if even his partner knows about it. DH is an absolute hero. If he resents it at all, he doesn’t show it. He just shrugs and says we do what we can, and we’d do it for any other member of the family too. And have.

But I feel my brother is taking the piss. He’s always resented the different life I’ve had ever since I did well at school, and this feels like his revenge. DH has suggested asking him man to man what steps he’s taking to put his business on a more practical footing, but that might appear overly aggressive. (DB is thin-skinned.) It’s not as if we can’t afford the subs, which look as if they will have to continue forever.

We are enabling him. I am reluctant to challenge him for risk of pushing him over the edge.

What would you do?

Oh, there's absolutely no question that anyone else is subbing him. It's delicacy and discretion rather than secrecy. Wouldn't want to embarrass him or make anyone else envious.

I wouldn't guarantee that no one else is subbing him. I subbed a friend for a few months when going through a hard time. Not a huge amount, little bits here and there, which added up.
When they moved away I discovered that they'd been doing similar with half a dozen people, all of us had not said anything due to delicacy and discretion.

Have you considered that these continued bailouts are actually counterproductive? In essence you're providing a safety net that's likely impeding your brothers ability to get his own shit together

I agree with this. You've got to stop bailing him out, OP. It's not helping anyone. Your sister sounds lovely - it would make a lot more sense to give her a nice unexpected present.

@tenlittlecygnets

It involves him making big cash layouts which he can’t always recover from clients. What kind of business is this? Sounds very dodgy. I would stop bailing him out at all. If you can’t even tell you why his business is in trouble and he is reticent about giving you financial facts about the company, that’s a red flag.

Your money should be going to your family and your children, not to him. If his business card support him, then that’s a hobby, not a business. He is an adult - it’s up to him to sort it out.

Heh, no, it's not dodgy. He's just clueless. He's a specialist builder and it's materials etc. He's probably v lax on the contracts side: I'd get the client's feet nailed to the floor before ordering the bricks, but that's just me being brutal. He won't want the benefit of my commercial knowledge, such as it is.

We're fortunate enough to be able share money outside the immediate family. Why do I feel embarrassed even saying that? We're not multimillionaires.

You are a mug. Just stop it. You are enabling him
He's a grown man who needs to take responsibility for his own stupidity.

If his partner leaves, good on her. Surprised she's stayed this long.
So what if he ends up homeless. His problem.

If he stops speaking to you it's a bonus.

Why aren't his clients paying upfront for materials. Thought that was the norm.

Lord, yes, of course I've considered how we're enabling him to be feckless. I've also considered what his life could be if we didn't enable him. It's all very well to say I'm not responsible for him or how he lives his life but it's certainly the case that I'm in a position to prevent him from falling into total poverty and hopelessness, so I see it as my duty. So does he.

I've considered how we might help him to be more provident and canny in financing his contracts, and considered how offensively patronising he'd regard that offer of assistance.

I've considered how we might talk about his financing as we might talk to a business colleague, and considered how condescending he'd regard that.

He couches his requests as a temporary loan against exigencies of storm, or drought, or client default, or market failure. There is always something. If I questioned further it would be seen as a questioning of his integrity.

I don't think he's spending the money on high living and wild women. OK, so he eats well and I don't begrudge him that.

He works hard and people let him down. Then the weather prevents him from working at all. How is it unfair for him to ask me to share my good fortune? He isn't asking for a gift, only a loan. He doesn't like to ask again but hope we can see our way. This is how it's couched and why I'm so conflicted. I can see the first part may be true, that he works hard when he can - but it's never a loan.

I'm just wondering why no one has said: Suck it up, sister! Welcome to the real world! I'm wondering if I've massively skewed the narrative against him again - I probably have. There is always another side to the story.

As someone from a family full of addicts I want to say to you

WAKE! UP!

You are being INCREDIBLY naive and stubbornly staying in denial.

In all likelihood he IS still drinking, from the pattern is possibly also a gambler and you're paying for him to maintain those addictions - along with whoever else is subbing him because I feel very confident in saying it's HIGHLY likely there are several others subbing him thinking they're the only ones too!

Addicts lie!!

All the time!

They lie, cheat, manipulate, steal, con...
anything to feed their habit.

He's probably doing the rounds, I suspect he has at least 6 mugs he's going to on rotation!

Given the family dynamics and your sisters situation my first priority in your position would be to ENSURE she's not subbing him and going without to do so.

You're not even really doing him any favours, you've said yourself you're enabling and that's exactly what's happening.

Many addicts need to hit rock bottom before they get themselves sorted - you're not letting him!

Seriously do BOTH of you a favour and STOP!

Have you ever questioned him about why the business never seems to make enough money.

Realistically he would be better off working for someone else even in a low paid job and cutting his cloth accordingly that way he wouldn’t have the big out lays of money.

I would ask why you need to cough up rather than getting the client to cover costs as they arise.

If he isn’t comfortable asking clients for money then he really shouldn’t be in business.

But you AREN’T responsible for him, why do you think you are?

I don’t mean this rudely but there’s quite a twisted family dynamic going on here! (I have my own so I get it - but it’s far easier to see from outside)

I've a fear there's this elaborate delicate charade that could disintegrate if questioned. I want to question it but sense the menace behind it, seeing someone who isn't really a loving brother but someone very angry with me. So we all pretend to be nice, and sometimes it is very nice. But always there's my fear that the vision will dissolve. That's all in my imagination of course: he's a very nice popular person, and very good at his job. Seriously, he's a wonderful craftsman. And he's very charming.

I don't think he's drinking again because his DP would leave him. My sister would know - and she's close by and v sharp. And also he has to go for regular checks on his blood alcohol, which have all been clear. So we feel sorry for him and guilty, and embarrassed because we don't like anyone to be beholden to us, and he resents us for it, understandably, but no one else is in a position to help him when he needs it -- and so it starts all over again.

Perhaps the sceptics are right and he's drinking again, but heaven knows how he's getting past those blood tests.

We're going to have to say something, aren't we. Oh God.

Yes it’s good to help out family when they are in need but what you are doing is enabling him to continue like this and as a result he will never learn to be responsible for himself. He feels entitled to it.
So no, it’s not a good thing.

I feel sorry for your DH and your kids. Your so blinkered in your vision of your perfect family that they and their needs come second to that of your man child brother that your scared of.
And that’s the brutal reality.
Why are you leaving money to your siblings in your wills?
Why are you giving (and you know it’s not a loan) the money to your brother?
What the worst that could happen?
Why are you scared of him?

Op, why do you keep saying it's 'understandable' that your brother resents you for being financially comfortable? Why would resentment of anyone for being comfortable (as long as they'd earned money legally) be understandable?

Why does being the older sister mean you're responsible for him? Surely parents are responsible for children, until they're adults? And now being all adults, why are you responsible for him not being homeless/poor/struggling to make ends meet?

I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't help if you want to and you obviously don't want to see him in poverty. But why is it your responsibility? The words you use are all very sympathetic to him and how he resents you but that's ok and you understand that - why???

It sounds like you know the relationship only exists because of the money you give him, and if you stopped the mask would slip off and he'd actively show his bitterness and resentment more. So you know this is how he feels about you, and you're paying him to...what? not show his feelings to you? You're paying him to mask his resentment of you.

Is that something worth paying for?

This sounds excatly like my parents situation (mine if they weren't here) he was a successful lawyer and then something happened so he couldn't practice anymore and then needed money for various 'businesses'. Noone knew excatly what he was doing to be honest least alone my poor old parents. But they just kept giving him money time and time over for this business, for that app, a business abroad etc. His ex wife also divorced him 10 years ago because there was a point bailiffs were coming to their home because of debt. He's never been good at money at all because I feel my parents enabled him from a young age. You are so so kind doing all this for your brother I don't think I would be as self less as you and your partner. I know you have the money at the moment but what if you didn't? I sure as hell would not be able to afford what he asks my parents. He asks them to re mortgage just so they can give him money for his 'businesses' we have never seen one of these businesses take off I mean we wish it would. Now he wants to build a flat (out of my parents money) in their back garden! So my mum has to cook for him and he says he's only staying 3 days (he also has a gf but again he's enticed her into the 'business' so she's a non earner too). So my parents are basicallt going to pay his rent in a flat so he's out of the house but he will ask for this rent money and spending money on top 'until the business takes off' they said they'd rather pay for all his needs then him too spiral out of control (he emotionally blackmails them saying he will do something stupid if he doesn't get help with money etc) and he gets abusive with them. So they'd rather be in debt than bear the brunt of his misfortune.. Its a sad situation and I really feel for you but he is your brother and you care about him. I dont have the solution unfortunately for you or my parents x

Take a piece of paper. Write down everything you've said in your posts that he isn't. Then cross out the 'not' parts.

OP you known this isn't ok, is a long way away from family support. Stop blinding yourself to give him the benefit of the doubt. Have a look at co-dependancy, at dry-drunks, at al-anon. And yes, maybe move this to Relationships.

I'm a gambling addict, the best thing to ever happen was for my financially comfortable sister to say no to bailing me out.

She was the first to say no when she could of supported.

She saved my life by saying no.

I'm currently 3 years without a bet and finally doing OK.

Drinking or not, he's still an alcoholic and the manipulative behaviours that goes with that are still there.

Of course he will take any business advice from you badly- he doesn't want to change how he runs things. He just sees you as a bank and while you supply it freely and willingly nothing will change. You are enabling him. If you cut the money off he will try and blame you, but the blame rests entirely with him.

I think counselling will benefit you op.

Thank you everyone. You have given me a lot to think about. But I must have put this really badly as no one is speaking up for my brother. I've tried to be honest with myself but perhaps I'm still not being fair in how I'm portraying him. Isn't it normal in families for people to help each other out? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need?

It's 'understandable' that he resents me because as the eldest I was able to do things before he was allowed to, and I was responsible for looking after him and didn't always do it well - not that he ever got hurt or lost, just got upset when he couldn't keep up. And I'm ashamed to say I resented the responsibility and resented him for spoiling things, instead of enjoying his company. It was a long time ago and no one would expect children to have that sort of responsibility these days. My sister is younger so there has never been rivalry and we have always got on very well. DB, on the other hand, has two difficult sisters!

And things have fallen into my lap - school, university, good jobs - whereas he has had a difficult time. He sees me swanning through life while he's worked hard for very little reward. The one time when things were going really well for him - steady work, good clients, nice house - his drinking got out of hand time and again and his marriage failed. That's on him of course, but he's climbed out of that pit with a lot of help.

Of course he doesn't express that resentment these days and it may be only in my imagination that it's still there, like mine is. On the surface everything is normal and affectionate. It's been helpful to put it down like this for the first time. I can see that whatever I do, whether I keep subbing him or tell him this is the last time, I am always going to be the bad big sister. I've just been trying to avoid unpleasantness.

I don't have to give him a reason for this being the last time. He's had warnings that it can't go on forever. We could even say: "We've lent you £x thousand now, what are your proposals for paying it back?" We won't. He'd probably have a heart attack on the spot. But we could say: "We've lent you £x thousand now and that's the absolute limit." That wouldn't sound unreasonable. He might think it's nasty put like that as a lump sum because it shows we've been keeping track - but that wouldn't be reasonable of him.

It's not a conversation I'm looking forward to - nor the aftermath, which could be devastating.

But can’t you see that he does not see/value you as you do him? You are just a cashpoint and a scapegoat for all the perceived wrongs in his life. Meanwhile you are throwing money at your guilty feelings.
Also, there are many many people that grow up in absolutely shit circumstances that go on to make tremendous success of their lives, as there are people that is born with a silver spoon and MENSA level IQ (my sister!!) and throw it all away. That is the cards we are dealt, and it is not your fault! Free yourself from that burden. I really feel for you OP, but his life and decisions and the (mothering?) responsibility that was put upon you as a CHILD and sibling is not the reason for his life turning out the way it has. Just stop enabling him.

Whether he is drinking or not is irrelevant

You can still drink and run a business.
The problem I see is not with the business itself but with his inability to get money for his work.

I think there is a connection with the fact he is an alcoholic (drinking to avoid having to deal with real life) and the non payments from his client and him avoiding having to confront them and deal with the real life situation of trying to get what he is owed.

No one wants to have to chase money. It is unpleasant and stressful and embarrassing and it is far easier if you have a family member who just gives you what you need rather than deal with a stranger who might turn nasty or just ignore you.

I think his first wife probably kept him on the financial straight and narrow but obviously that went wrong and he isn’t now capable of dealing with paying bills or billing people and chasing them for money.
I know it may sound strange but I don’t think he has made the connection between working, income and expenditure. To him he works, he might or might not get paid and if things get tight then there is always you to bail him out.

He probably has a potentially successful business if he got paid on time for every job

Oliversmumsarmy - yes, that's exactly it! Ex-SIL was brilliant at the financial side of things and he is clueless I suspect and certainly avoidant. It's not an easy problem to address though and he's never taken kindly to any offer of help in that department. He'd do well to employ her on a part time basis - they get on reasonably well - but I doubt she'd want to and I doubt he'd trust anyone else.

Isn't it normal in families for people to help each other out? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need?

But it's all one way, isn't it?

You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.
You bail him out and give him a 'loan'.. which he never repays.

.... and what, exactly does he do for you? Deign to talk to you and then if you were to say 'no' to giving him more money?

1.He’s always resented the different life you've ever since you did well at school
2.You feel as if you're going without things you'd like
3.He's a bit inclined to tantrums and it's always felt like a bit of a success to keep him calm

He sounds super awesome - You tread on eggshells to keep him happy, give him money and get nothing in return? What would happen if you asked HIM for money? What would happen if you asked HIM for support of some kind?

It's all so one-way. This isn't a case of you helping a family member out - it's more him taking you for a mug and draining you (emotionally and financially) and the situation keeps repeating itself.

Unless you change something, it's going to keep on going and going and going...

Lots of people have a difficult relationship with their siblings growing up. It doesn't mean they owe them large sums of money later in life.

OP you keep talking about keeping everyone happy but they aren't happy are they?

By your own admission you're not happy with this situation and neither is your brother.

Both of you are resentful.

How much money do you have to give him before you finally say enough?

From what you've said I don't think he's drinking again but it sounds very much that he lacks business acumen, even if he's skilled at his trade.

If he can't manage the finances/contracts then he needs to employ someone who can and frankly it's appalling that instead of getting his act together in that regard he'd rather you continuously bail him out of poor business decisions.

You sound like you tip toe around him for fear of upsetting him yet in return he shows no respect for you.

I don't really know what else to say to you because you seem stuck in this narrative that he's a good person with bad luck and it's your duty to help him.

The thing is you're not helping because your money isn't resolving the issue and it never will whilst you continuously hand over these no strings/no questions attached "loans".

It's not at all unreasonable next time he asks to say "ok, but it's on condition that we review your contracts and overall business finance model, including getting someone to manage it going forward". If he won't agree to that then no money.

He sees your money as his. He'll never even try to manage until you stop bailing him out. It will be hard for him and he will blame you, but you shouldn't financially support him for the rest of his life.

WagnersFourthSymphony

I recognise the situation from a friends situation. Friend had to take unpaid leave when she realised that her dh’s business was about to be declared bankrupt. He is also a master craftsman.

His wife had no compunction in chasing people for money and reorganised the terms and conditions and took over the finance side of the business.

It is about recognising strengths and weaknesses.
He is obviously fantastic at what he does but he can’t handle the financial side.

Without a wife who can do that would he be better off employing someone on a very p/t basis to invoice and chase payments and even pay his bills and he takes a small wage each month.

It is knowing your abilities.

Most people probably cannot do what he does. They wouldn’t even try to as it would turn out shit. So they employ someone who can.

He can’t do finances. He might try to but it turns out shit so if there is no one to sort him out then he needs to employ someone to do it for him.

There is no shame in employing someone to do something you can’t do. If everyone was able to turn their hand to everything then a lot of people would be unemployed.