Always bailing out DB – WWYD?

[WagnersFourthSymphony]

This is a first world problem so I feel bad even asking about it. DH and I are comfortably off. My brother, who lives in another country, isn’t. He is self-employed and his business hasn’t been doing well, even before Covid. He is a recovering alcoholic who let things slide. His wife, who kept their finances under control, finally washed her hands of him ten years ago and I can’t say I blame her. He has been with his new partner since his post-divorce rehab and she has helped him two or three times to get back on the wagon, the last time with an ultimatum. As far as I know he’s been TT for a good couple of years.

Nevertheless, his business isn’t making ends meet. Or something. It involves him making big cash layouts which he can’t always recover from his clients – the weather gets in the way, or the client goes back to England. (I don’t understand why he doesn’t get payment on account, but that’s beside the point.)

So every six months or so he asks us for a big bailout. These are always couched as loans but of course there is never anything formal (that would be unthinkable) and since his divorce we have never received a penny back, nor do we expect to.

It’s coming to a lot of money over the years. I honestly don’t know what would become of him if we didn’t help. His partner works hard, but in a low wage job. But I’m starting to feel resentful. Perhaps it’s my problem rather than his? I feel as if I’m going without things I’d like (a new car, for example) to help him out, though the things I’m going without aren’t things I actually need.

No other members of the family are aware of this. I don’t know if even his partner knows about it. DH is an absolute hero. If he resents it at all, he doesn’t show it. He just shrugs and says we do what we can, and we’d do it for any other member of the family too. And have.

But I feel my brother is taking the piss. He’s always resented the different life I’ve had ever since I did well at school, and this feels like his revenge. DH has suggested asking him man to man what steps he’s taking to put his business on a more practical footing, but that might appear overly aggressive. (DB is thin-skinned.) It’s not as if we can’t afford the subs, which look as if they will have to continue forever.

We are enabling him. I am reluctant to challenge him for risk of pushing him over the edge.

What would you do?

You give him money yet he's the defensive one, can't ask questions etc.

Just stop enabling him. What would he do if you weren't well off? He'd sink or swim!

Maybe give him one last payment and make it very clear it's the last. Tell him you have others you need to help, if you have to give a reason, and given that this situation has gone on for such a long time, its obviously not helping him deal with his problems.

Be prepared for him to go NC, if he does then he's a nasty piece of work and you are well rid. He is not your responsibility just because you have money. Stop making excuses for him.

Few more thoughts to add.

You're very coy about how much you have given your brother and as such my guess is we are talking many tens of thousands of pounds.

Also re: resentment. You've already said that you and your brother are resentful but frankly I think the people who have the most right to be so (if they knew what was happening and the scale of the money involved, which I bet they don't) are your son and sister.

You say your sister isn't well off but is hard working yet fail to see how your generosity could have a very positive influence on her life yet you continue to let your brother piss away money whilst making no changes to ensure it's used productively.

It reminds me of golden child syndrome where the feckless child gets the parents unwavering support regardless of their poor choices/behaviour and the other hard working and diligent child gets nothing.

You want to play happy families but imagine what your sister and son would feel like if they knew what you were doing and how that would make them feel.

You're so focused on your brother and perhaps enjoying the need to be needed by him that you're in danger of alienating everyone.

Is the drinking about avoiding situations that stress him out like asking a client for payment.

Is it because he has poured all his skill into a project and in the back of his mind does he thinks if they don’t pay up immediately the client isn’t happy with his work and asking for money might unleash a backlash of what the client isn’t happy with and it would be devastating to him so not chasing for payment means he doesn’t have to hear any criticism.

Don’t know about your dB but friends dh was a bit like the above. He was also deep down painfully shy and despite being an amazing craftsman had no confidence in his work.

He needs to be employed by someone - a climb down and possibly humiliating for him but that needs to happen. There is going to be a lot of building work here with the easing of planning laws. He isn't a
business man, never will be. He needs to be applying for jobs.

I think the drink is another issue. Either he fixes that or he doesn't. Not much anyone else can do.

People like this just don't really appreciate the gifts of money - because he is seeing it as his due, for some reason (but the reason will always be someone else's blame, not them).

You are going to have to be tough. Before he is too old to find work/ save a pension/ get a life and ends up on the street (or in desperation living with you).

But I must have put this really badly as no one is speaking up for my brother

That's because he's a freeloader.

Just say no Op

so school, university and jobs "fell into your lap" and now you feel guilty?
You know the harder you work the luckier you get right?
Did you do absolutely nothing other than drink, piss your partner off so much they left and then fanny around with a business that makes no money and STILL end up well off? I very much doubt it
He made his choices and you made yours, stop apologising for doing well, there is no rule that says only 1 sibling from each family can be successful, he could have done what you did but took a different path and thats ok but its not up to you to subsidise his choices.
By treating him like a child you are doing him no favours, he could have been self sufficient years ago if you hadnt given him so much money. He would have had to get a proper job for a start.
Stop being such a bloody martyr and either keep giving him the money uncomplainingly and carry on babying him or stop and help him become a grown up. If he drinks or gets divorced again it wont be your fault

No one is speaking up for your brother because we have the clarity to see the situation for what it really is.

You seem to want to blame yourself for this too- it's not at all understandable that he resents you because you are the eldest. None of this is normal behaviour or a healthy dynamic.

Honestly, you need to have some counselling for yourself about this.

This thread must be really hard to read as your eyes are being opened to it.

In the long run though you need to accept that this isn't your fault and detach more. You are enabling him at the min.

Oh op, that post about your childhoods is heartbreaking, but not for the reasons you think.

You were given too much responsibility. You had to look after your younger siblings, whilst doing school work etc.

Of course you weren’t as good a parent to him as an adult would have been - you were a child.

Despite all that disadvantage (I don’t see him being burdened with those caring responsibilities in the same way) you did well at school, worked hard, got a decent career and built a good life.

But because of the awful burden that was placed on you at a young age you still feel responsible and like he missed out.

You missed out. You all did, but you most of all because you had the extra work. He took the path of making excuses, you took the path of buckling down and it paid off.

You earned your life, it wasn’t luck. Please stop trying to prop him up. He’s an adult now. He can make his own choices. You are not responsible for them.

The reason no one is siding with your brother isn’t because you’ve misrepresented him. I’m sure he’s lovely and charming and great and works hard, but none of that justifies you financially supporting him forever and being lied to about it being a loan.

Stop this. Before he asks again, get dh to mention that it’s probably time to repay the loan in small amounts. Hopefully he will stop asking for more. And if he does say “we have already lent you X, we can’t afford to lend you more but are happy for you to repay it at your own pace”

Don’t expect repayment if that’s okay with you, but hopefully he will avoid the subject to avoid reminding you of it.

In an emergency I would lend my siblings money. On a long term basis I would happily sit down with them and help them work out budgeting solutions. I would not lend more than once if it had not been repaid. This is not an emergency. This is long term reliance with no gratitude or appreciation.

It’s time to end the arrangement and step back. He’s your brother not your son.

*He’s always resented the different life I’ve had ever since I did well at school, and this feels like his revenge"

Why on earth are you colluding in it then?

You are not his parent.
Him blaming you for his shit decision making is nothing but emotional blackmail to keep the bailouts coming.

What incentive does he have for sorting himself out if he knows your money is there. You are not helping him at all.

You are being played. Your DH is a fucking saint to keep allowing your family income to be handed over to an irresponsible adult.

Previous poster was right, if he can't run his bloody business properly, he need to find a job working for someone else.

You mentioned in a post @WagnersFourthSymphony I must have put this really badly as no one is speaking up for my brother

That is down to two things. Firstly we're only reading your side of the situation (not that I want your brother to pop up on this thread to give his side of the story) and secondly, because even reading from your side, you have given him money in the past which you described as a loan but it clearly isn't a loan as he has never attempted to pay any of those 'loans' back in the past. He is looking to be bailed out, over and over and over again and you enable that by 'loaning' him money. I'd imagine that he has never had to cut his cloth to suit his budget. He's had his former wife looking after the books and when she had enough, you stepped in to the 'hero' role here. He either needs to go on a distance learning course on how to file accounts etc. or hire an accountant to look into his finances. You could probably arrange that and based on their results, you could decide to make one final donation or he has to wind up the company. He doesn't seem like he wants to step up and be the adult here while there are so many Mother figures in his life going to sort out his life for him.

That's my advice on the situation.

He may not be drinking but he's still acting like an addict. It will always be your fault if his business isn't successful, if his relationship breaks down, if he relapses and starts using again... You can either continue to enable his behaviour or put some boundaries in place and stick to them. Please google "support for families of addicts uk" and see what they have to say.

Oh, another thing - why haven't you answered the question about why you're leaving money to your siblings in your will when you have a son? This has been asked by a number of people in a number of posts yet you have chosen not to answer it. I think it is relevant to how you see yourself in relation to your siblings and your family (i.e. your DH and your son).

Well, that's me told! We'll say this time has to be the last. We'll make a suggestion (however unwelcome) about cashflow planning and getting help with accounts. He's in another country and not very tech savvy so we couldn't go into much detail with this even if he was willing.

As for leaving money to siblings: is it really so weird to give relations a legacy? Of course not. Yes, I'd treat my brother's debt as forgiven and I'd want my sister to have the same amount, out of fairness. I can't very well give it to her now for all sorts of reasons. Our son will have the residue and bulk of the estate, which is plenty. Obviously that would all change if circumstances change. But the whole thing is off topic. It's not really relevant to how I see my current responsibilities to other members of the family. I could leave a legacy to the cats' home if I wanted to and still leave the residue to our son. We're just fortunate to be in a position at present to do this without him missing out.

And yes, DH is a saint. In fact, it's his saintliness over this, at least in part, that's let this whole saga go on so long.

Thanks to everyone who's commented. It's been really helpful, especially the unpleasant truths.

Good luck. I suspect there will be a fallout, but you already expect that yourself.

I can't very well give it to her now for all sorts of reasons.

One possibility is to say no more loans or gifts to DB (starting yesterday) but you're writing off the previous loans ...and... to be fair ... will be giving the same amount he had, to your sister.
If she feels awkward about it, tell her to keep it in an account for emergencies and promise her that if you need it you'll tell her (you don't have to tell her how unlikely that is). Or is it that she might be getting divorced soon or otherwise would get pressured by others about it? In which case fair enough ...

From my own experience if the underlying relationship is screwed and it's clear the recipient has no money sense, giving them more money just makes things worse. I hate to say it but things might not be fixable between you and DB - so frankly hang onto the cash cos it can be better spent elsewhere.

The trouble is if you give money to your sister right now then she might be the next person your brother moves on to ask for money from. If though there is something specific (house purchase/ training costs etc) then it might be nice to offer it to her before your wills. It might be worth having a note in the will to explain why your brother does not have anything as otherwise he might claim it was an oversight.

You would be better off paying a manager to run the business side of his business. That's paying directly to the manager for a limited period after which if the business is any good, your DB will be able to pick up the tab

Remember the saying - to keep doing the same thing again and again and expecting things to change is madness.

Time to break the cycle

Hiya just wanted to add with regards to the enabling side of things that I would agree that is what is happening here. Your brother is not having to face reality as someone will always bail him out and unfortunately I think that by doing so not only are you guys missing out on what you are creating but also he is not being faced with the need to make it happen for himself. A 'typical' addiction position if there ever was such a thing as typical. One of the most difficult things for a family who loves someone is to let them learn to stand/fall on their own but without doing so they are never going to reach that point of realization that they are the only ones who can ultimately make the difference to their own lives. The painful part is that some don't manage to pull themselves together whilst others do and holding out in the meantime is not fun by any means. I hope you find a way to set yourselves free from this and make peace with the journey that follows. Good luck.

I would stop this now. If he is only family when he is getting money off you he is not your family. He will never grow up whilst he can rely on you to pick up the pieces

Blood alcohol tests are fairly easy to “cheat” if he has some level of control, alcohol doesn’t stay in your system beyond around 12 hours, are these impromptu tests he has or appointment?

Either way YOU are not responsible for his inability to run his business!

@oliversmumsarmy is spot on re employing another with a skill you don’t possess to get a job done. I’m academically pretty good and I’m quite good at budgeting too, but I’m crap at many practical things! I can’t so much as hang a picture or put together flat pack (seriously my attempts are legendary among my family and friends - they inc the back to front and upside down drawer in a desk and lopsided bookcase - I mean really it doesn’t get easier than a bookcase and I still cocked it up!!), my mum is good at many practical things but struggles with percentages though she’s very good at basic arithmetic. A friend of mine is functionally illiterate (suspect undx dyslexia or something similar) but is an AMAZING artist to the point she can command £1000’s for commissions.

Everyone has a different skill set.

Yes it will be difficult having the conversation and the initial consequences but I bet in a few months when the dust settles you’ll be glad you did it!

And chances are even if he does kick off he'll come crawling back anyway if only to protect his inheritance!

It could even be the making of him!

OP - just something slightly different. You refer to your DB being a master craftsman and really good at his job, etc. Has he ever offered to create something in whatever his craft is for you or your DS as a way of thanking you for all your bailouts. Or even helping you in any other way (bottle of wine, babysitting when DS was younger, hosting you for free if you visited his country, etc.)
Because any normal, decent person, if they owed money they couldn't afford to pay back, would at least try to make some kind of small restitution in some way.
If he hasn't unfortunately that does seem to confirm that he doesn't see you really as a his sister, or someone he has any actual feelings of affection or responsibility for, as you do him. He just sees you has a bank manager who he has to keep sweet. Sadly you are probably right in that the moment you say no his veneer of friendliness will drop instantly and you will see his true colours.

@WagnersFourthSymphony

Well, that's me told! We'll say this time has to be the last. We'll make a suggestion (however unwelcome) about cashflow planning and getting help with accounts. He's in another country and not very tech savvy so we couldn't go into much detail with this even if he was willing.

As for leaving money to siblings: is it really so weird to give relations a legacy? Of course not. Yes, I'd treat my brother's debt as forgiven and I'd want my sister to have the same amount, out of fairness. I can't very well give it to her now for all sorts of reasons. Our son will have the residue and bulk of the estate, which is plenty. Obviously that would all change if circumstances change. But the whole thing is off topic. It's not really relevant to how I see my current responsibilities to other members of the family. I could leave a legacy to the cats' home if I wanted to and still leave the residue to our son. We're just fortunate to be in a position at present to do this without him missing out.

And yes, DH is a saint. In fact, it's his saintliness over this, at least in part, that's let this whole saga go on so long.

Thanks to everyone who's commented. It's been really helpful, especially the unpleasant truths.

I think that's the right decision OP, but I expect you already knew that - hence why you posted.

Sometimes people already know the answer before they post but because it's a difficult decision they hope to get perspectives from other posters to confirm (or otherwise) that they are making the right choice.

Given you seem to struggle in particular with saying no to your brother I'd suggest you let your DH handle this discussion.

He needs to make clear that this is the last time and whatever comes after you won't be bailing him out again, thus he needs to use this money constructively - ideally making provision for someone to handle the business financial.

I'd also suggest that your DH tells your brother that he's dealing with this now and your brother isn't to contact you about money going forward. If he does you'll simply pass any request to DH who will refuse it.

Sad to say I think what you'll find is that your brother won't contact you because he doesn't value you as a sister - just a banker.

As for the wills - your money and it's up to you who you give it to.

That said it is quite unusual to give significant amounts to siblings, though I can understand your circumstances might be different if they are much younger and you parented them for a time (but please don't assume this is what normally happens).

Good luck

@WagnersFourthSymphony - this is not normal really and you’re infantilising your DB.

It sounds like guilt money to me and you sound like you seriously need to address your family dysfunction and how it has affected your approach here.

You are quite literally throwing good money after bad. It’s bonkers

If you’re seriously wealthy where you have zero money worries (millionaire levels) then if you want to ‘invest’ in your DB, then at least do something practical like buying a property and renting it to him cheaply, or paying for him to retrain, but just continual subbing for a wilfully ignorant sibling who would cut contact off if you stopped his gravy train is feeding this dysfunctional enablement.