I think I have realised I don't really like sex with men

[smallskylight]

I am middle aged and, when I think about it, I have only enjoyed sex with one man. I loved sex with him because he spent so much time touching and caressing and really enjoying my body. He clearly loved women's bodies, and he was clearly very aroused by touching me like that for that length of time. It made me realise most men are not like that, or at least not the ones I have been with. They lose their erections if they spend too much time touching and pleasuring me. Maybe I have been very unlucky, but I have probably had sex with up to 20 men. He's also the only man I have enjoyed penetrative sex with. Normally I get nothing out of this at all. TBH I find it boring. I think I enjoyed it with him because I was so aroused by the time we got around to penetrative sex. But even then I don't orgasm from it. The last two guys I had sex after him were awful. And kinda made me realise just how much I don't enjoy sex with men. I don't like sex where they seem to think my pleasure is entirely centred in my genitals, and if they move quickly after a snog to lick and rub that, then that is all they need to do.

Does anyone else feel like this? TBH I am wondering whether or not to bother trying to find a man to have a relationship with. The thought of crap sex just puts me off.

[smallskylight]

always communicated with LTPs but it isn’t always taken in. I communicated a lot to my STBEXH but every time was still like the first time, so I just gave up trying

Yup. I think you need that magical combination of two people who are willing to communicate and to listen.

I don't think its fair to say people (mainly men prob) are stupid if they think porn is real sex. The average age for a boy to start watching sex is 11. If you are 11 you are going to believe this is what sex is like and this is what you are like. Porn that explicitly says, ' we know what you like, its what all men like' are telling children, children!, this is what you like before they have a chance to discover that for themselves. If you've grown up on this, of course you think this is what sex is. Whats' more, your brain will have been wired to be sexually aroused by those sort of 'practices'.
That's why I think it is a public health issue, and can't just be left to a matter of individual responsibility.

[Planbforme]

@smallskylight

I agree with you. I was much older by the time I ever saw porn so I don’t think it affected my neural pathways the way it would with a child. An ex of mine told me he had to quit porn, like someone would cigarettes, because he couldn’t get off without it and he couldn’t get the images out of his head. He said it ironically ruined his sex live IRL! There is surely a healthy way to ‘use’ it.

[Planbforme]

By the way, I have seen porn but not too often!

[LexMitior]

Pornography is an individual issue because it’s unregulated and nobody talks about it with young boys. I’ve no doubt that it influences them, but basically the thread started to talking about adult men.

Adult men are not idiots. If they are selfish or bad in bed it is not all on porn. It is on them. They aren’t children. They can, for example, distinguish between good and bad, pleasure and pain. A lot of the bad stuff that women talk about seems to me like a try on. This is nasty, but that the man you are with has decided for you that he can do this thing, without your consent. He has decided, not you. Now having sex with someone who is like that is not going to be good or enjoyable, and fair enough. But don’t tell me it’s more than a try on, in the same way that some men have tried forever.

Children watching porn... well if your 11 year old is watching porn and you haven’t discussed why it’s crap then what are they supposed to do? The age puberty starts is earlier and earlier. They want to explore.

[FifteenToes]

Indeed. I've watched porn on and off throughout my life and am old enough to remember when we had to access it through magazines (anyone remember those?). But it would never occur to me to go about having sex with a real person as if it was porn. They're different things.

All this slapping and choking stuff is just crazy. I mean, anyone with the slightest degree of socialisation knows that you don't slap or choke people, generally. So why would you do it to someone you're in bed with, just because you saw it in a piece of fantasy/entertainment media? Did watching Apocalypse Now make you go and napalm entire villages?

I don't get it.

[smallskylight]

Children watching porn... well if your 11 year old is watching porn and you haven’t discussed why it’s crap then what are they supposed to do? The age puberty starts is earlier and earlier. They want to explore

That's why its a public health issue. We should have a society that enables children to explore in a healthy way, not in a violent misogynistic way.

I have never bought the whole ' we know its not real' argument for anything tbh. The fact that you know a story line is not real, does not mean than you are internalising messages about a group of people which become your real life attitudes to those people. We would instinctively understand this to be the case if it were applied to say, a racial group. If everyone were regularly watching films and tv programmes that showed jews or black people as inferior and subservient to white /non-jewish people we all understand that this was wrong and would start to feed into attitudes to those groups. I don't see that it is any different with porn. If people constantly watch and masturbate to women being abused of course that is going to feed into their real life expectations and desires.

slap or choke people, generally. So why would you do it to someone you're in bed with Because it has become normal part of sexual practice to you because you have watched it so much. Because porn has wired your neural pathways to get aroused by it.

[smallskylight]

does not mean than you are NOT internalising messages that should say

[smallskylight]

But don’t tell me it’s more than a try on, in the same way that some men have tried forever

I really, really don't think it is like it used to be when I was young. I really don't. Everything I have read, and heard is telling me young women are having very different experiences, from people going to schools and talking to young people about sex, from feedback from Family Planning Services, to a bloody article in the Metro - a 'humorous' article where women were asked to write in with tales of men's bad manners in bed. In my day that would have been stuff like farting or sticking the football on the tele immediately post-coitus. These young women were describing stuff that was borderline sexual assault to actual sexual assault and talking about it like,' Ha Ha, what are men like, eh?' I really think its different, and the reason is the type of porn and ease of access to it.
Its like smoking. We didn't massively cut smoking by saying 'oh its bad for you. Now make your own choice, and you can choose if you go to places where non-smokers are - its on you.' We realised it was bad for people, including non-smokers and reduced access to smoking, essentially making it less socially acceptable.
These things are public health issues, not a matter of individual choice, because they effect others than those making those choices.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

If the only sex that you've seen, from a young age is porn, why wouldn't you think that's how you do it?

I remember when I first had sex - it was in the 80s so porn culture obviously wasn't a thing - but I had no clue. I obviously knew the basics (in theory) but absolutely no idea about anything other than penis goes into.vagina. Like literally nothing else. Thankfully my then boyfriend was far more experienced and fantastic and really taught me but had he not have I wouldn't have known what was right, how to make it better etc. You learn through your experiences and how good or bad they are shapes what you take into your next relationship.

[LexMitior]

Well, you need a few things to happen for this society. One of those things is that fathers talk to their sons about porn and sex.

If you are encountering someone who does extreme things (and slapping and choking are) then this person is actively dangerous to you. They are inflicting harm on you for their own gratification. You don’t start saying “oh but poor lamb they don’t know any better”. Maybe they don’t. If so, get away from them! You reckon he didn’t know any better? What a very low bar. No amount of instructions to the contrary will help people like this. They are basically using you for their own gratification. It is not an accident. Women need to actually understand that this stuff indicates the man is extreme and damaged by porn possibly.

[smallskylight]

extreme things (and slapping and choking are)

The point is that, thanks to porn, these are no longer extreme. They used to be niche, but now they are mainstream.

You don’t start saying “oh but poor lamb they don’t know any better

No-one is arguing this. If you think this is my argument you have completely misunderstood.

They are basically using you for their own gratification. It is not an accident
No its not an accident. They are like this because of porn.

No amount of instructions to the contrary will help people like this
There has not been a sudden rise in young men inexplicably and independently deciding to sexually abuse and degrade women. There are men behaving like this directly because of porn.
Porn normalises this. Makes them think other men want to do this. Makes them think women like this. Means they get aroused by this. Arguing, as you seem to, that porn is ok carry on as it is because women can just sexually reject such men, seems to me an wholly inadequate response. It won't stop an increasing number of men being programmed, effectively, to be aroused by abusing women, it won't stop women from being abused by these men. Women can't always say no.
We are social, cultural animals. We are profoundly influenced by our social environment. If there is a substantial social phenomena normalising and encouraging a behaviour it will have an effect. You can't push that aside by saying it is for individuals to try to mitigate the harmful effects of that massive social phenomena.

[LexMitior]

Well you won’t hear me disagree, but I’ve got to say that most men have been respectful and fine in bed. I met two men who were extreme. I never, ever saw them again.

I don’t think men have changed so much myself. I think a lot of them are attempting to persuade women that something more extreme is normal, and if you are a mug you will fall for it.

Men know this stuff is not okay. They are looking for a woman who will tolerate it. You don’t have to be her.

As for children, well, that’s a whole different issue because really how young boys consider porn and sex is down to parenting. If you don’t as a father and a mother, talk to your kids then you aren’t really helping them deal with it. It isn’t well dealt with by giving them a smartphone and hoping they are decent. You have to do a lot more than that. I often see parents totally ignore this issue, and hope it’s okay. It will not be unless you talk to your sons and daughters about consent, what it means, and why people want to have sex with each other, as opposed to a series of repetitive acts designed to help masturbation being on a screen.

There are some things other people can do to help children. But parenting is still the most important thing in their lives, even with teenagers.

[smallskylight]

Yes, but I suppose I am saying I want a society where parents don't have to say, ' See that porn you and your mates watch that shows women being pissed on and gang raped? Women don't actually like that, son.'

[poldarklover]

I understand what you mean 100%. I have only had sex with two men so I'm not very experienced, I'm now married but my husband is very much in the category of hammering away and loses his erection if he stops and does anything to please me.

While some men are turned on when women are turned on, I just don't think this is true for most men. I am not one who blames porn for everything, but I think in this case it is largely to do with porn. Porn in general does not focus much on women's pleasure and makes out that women are pleasured by giving men BJs or some other ridiculous crap. Men who watch too much of that rubbish, coupled with little sexual experience, seem to think that is real life and women are satisfied with aggressive fingering and nipple pinching.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

Well, you need a few things to happen for this society. One of those things is that fathers talk to their sons about porn and sex

Why only father's to sons? What about girls - who is meant to teach them about sex and how to be a good partner? Sex isn't something that men do to women - it should be about both partners being active participants and both equally concerned about the enjoyment for their partner so why are you making it only the man's responsibility?

[LexMitior]

I know it may be horrible, but don’t parents have that responsibility? We do.

The alternative is that porn does it. The boy who doesn’t have this help, well he’s a little messed up before he has even touched a girl.

A lot of men are messed up by porn. A lot more know it’s crap. We have all men who are not very good for us in bed, and then there are these unicorn men who are amazing. There are certainly very few of them. But given most men can read or learn techniques to please a woman (and she him) then basically this is some lazy selfish behaviour which is masturbation using the partner for that purpose. Men do have choices and they don’t have to be like this. They aren’t idiots.

The answer is you have to go back to the filtering stage and be tough to get rid of them. You deserve better. Good sex takes communication and building a connection.

[Cattywampuswastaken]

I’m surprised there Is not more agreement with @smallskylight because in my own humble experience, porn really has got nasty. My ex and I looked at some together and it was all too easy to find really abusive, nasty sex with a reluctant woman ‘giving in’ or screaming no. In fact, it was quite difficult to find completely vanilla sex.

I don’t think anyone is saying that this has nothing to do with women but in the interests of getting real, more rape and sexual assaults are carried out by men on women and all the STATS show that more young men than young women watch porn. Neural pathways were mentioned & that’s exactly it-a young mind learns to normalise it and to grow up with a messed up attitude to sex and arousal to the point that the wiring of their brains has actually changed. It really is different if you haven’t grown up with it.

I had one similar experience to @Planbforme’s and he did seem to think I’d love just being a subservient woman there for his gratification! I’m sorry you had that experience and I don’t blame you at all because you did nothing wrong (except to expect better-a scum bag like you said but also porn-addicted like you said).

There have been implications here that it’s up to women to police men or show them what we won’t accept etc but isn’t that really sad and antiquated and the antithesis to equality? No wonder a heterosexual woman would consider lesbian sex (that’s assuming you are heterosexual OP: I’m not sure).

Incidentally, apparently many heterosexual women watch lesbian porn because they find heterosexual porn too violent and distressing.

Like so many things in our lifetimes, the issue of porn (as it is now in its availability and disturbing content), will be looked back on with a collective WTAF in my opinion.

Just my thoughts. Make love, not war!

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

To be fair though, the op was about a less than satisfactory experience of sex. Not about men who wanted violent or degrading sex but who maybe just weren't that great or even had the temerity to not maintain an erection.

[FifteenToes]

@smallskylight

But don’t tell me it’s more than a try on, in the same way that some men have tried forever

I really, really don't think it is like it used to be when I was young. I really don't. Everything I have read, and heard is telling me young women are having very different experiences, from people going to schools and talking to young people about sex, from feedback from Family Planning Services, to a bloody article in the Metro - a 'humorous' article where women were asked to write in with tales of men's bad manners in bed. In my day that would have been stuff like farting or sticking the football on the tele immediately post-coitus. These young women were describing stuff that was borderline sexual assault to actual sexual assault and talking about it like,' Ha Ha, what are men like, eh?' I really think its different, and the reason is the type of porn and ease of access to it.
Its like smoking. We didn't massively cut smoking by saying 'oh its bad for you. Now make your own choice, and you can choose if you go to places where non-smokers are - its on you.' We realised it was bad for people, including non-smokers and reduced access to smoking, essentially making it less socially acceptable.
These things are public health issues, not a matter of individual choice, because they effect others than those making those choices.

I don't doubt that's true, but I think there's a danger in these discussions that because people are focusing on what's bad about the present, they view the past through rose-tinted glasses or at least fail to recognise that there was a whole lot of other stuff that was bad about it too.

I grew up in the 70s and I can tell you that for teenage boys then, rape myths and acceptance of rape culture was absolutely standard and not even questioned. School on Monday would involve eager sharing of information about which girls had been "banged" on the weekend, and if some of that involved duplicitous means, who cares. I was a nerd at school and didn't lose my virginity till much later, but my first girlfriend (who was much more experienced) filled me in on some of the techniques involved in cornering girls into situations where they ended up submitting. Mostly things that these days we would simply call rape.

Rape in marriage wasn't even legally recognised until the 70s. Going back from my generation, do you think my parents' and grandparents' generations enjoyed only the purest of enthusiastically consensual and mutually satisfying sex, simply because they didn't have internet porn? Historical record and the way women-as-chattels are depicted in all aspects of culture say otherwise.

What's often overlooked is that while both social and technological changes have made unsavoury porn more widely disseminated, they've also made a lot of other things more widely disseminated too. Like equality, women's rights, open discussion about consent, overcoming shame, challenging victim-blaming, awareness and tolerance of different sexualities and proclivities, knowledge about STDs etc. Listening to my teenage son and his friends talk about stuff like this, they seem sooooo much more enlightened than we were.

The experience of girls feeling pressured to do things they don't want to do is probably not that different, in essence, from that of previous generations. Basically men want casual sex more than women, and vary in how well socialisation moderates their pursuit of it. Plus ca change.

[Calabasa]

BDSM stuff.. 'kink' and all the physical stuff is only an issue because its entering mainstream without the safeguards of Safe.Sane.Consensual that the the Kink Community absolutely push.

I enjoy some BDSM aspects and my BF and i do engage in some things, but they're introduced slowly, with consent and discussion FIRST, and proper aftercare applied afterwards, even if it is just checking we're both ok and discussing if anything should happen differently next time.

These young guys see them being used in Porn and dont have the understanding that they're dangerous, can cause harm and require proper aftercare!!

[LexMitior]

May I add a corrective to this. A lot of what is mainstream BDSM, or indeed choking, slapping, strangulation, that stuff in law is still considered deviant, and still illegal in the UK.

These things are not what this thread is about, but the fact is that women should regard men who suggest or do them with deep suspicion. I think there is a huge issue with the mainstreaming is violent conduct in sex as somehow “sex”. It isn’t.

There are men and women who spend a lot of time on here arguing for the right to do these things and that is okay because there is consent. That is not true legally, and any woman, I mean any, who is slapped, choked or strangles is still entitled to go to the police. It is still a crime.

[category12]

Yes, hopeful that this will be spelt out in the Domestic Abuse BIll www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53064086

[LexMitior]

Yes and more to come, I think. The fact is that because some deviant and criminal people like to claim violent conduct is and can be consensual in law. It can’t, and the Brown amendment makes that clear.

I’ve mentioned this enough on here; the mainstreaming of violence as a sexual act is not one that women have to accept.

[FifteenToes]

There are men and women who spend a lot of time on here arguing for the right to do these things and that is okay because there is consent. That is not true legally, and any woman, I mean any, who is slapped, choked or strangles is still entitled to go to the police. It is still a crime.

That's a really interesting and important point. If you were chatting to someone at a party and then they suddenly started pulling your hair and choking you, it would obviously be assault and you'd call the police. So why should it be any different just because you happen to be having sex when the assault takes place?

[LexMitior]

It is not different. You should be very wary of people who claim that because you have a sexual element that the criminal law does not apply. There is much gross naivety displayed about violence in the context of sex. It is just as wrong as it ever was.

A man slapping a woman for his own gratification during sex is possibly a sadist. Women really need to think about the motivations of people who want to do actions like slapping, choking or strangling. Those motivations can be very dark.