I think I have realised I don't really like sex with men

[smallskylight]

I am middle aged and, when I think about it, I have only enjoyed sex with one man. I loved sex with him because he spent so much time touching and caressing and really enjoying my body. He clearly loved women's bodies, and he was clearly very aroused by touching me like that for that length of time. It made me realise most men are not like that, or at least not the ones I have been with. They lose their erections if they spend too much time touching and pleasuring me. Maybe I have been very unlucky, but I have probably had sex with up to 20 men. He's also the only man I have enjoyed penetrative sex with. Normally I get nothing out of this at all. TBH I find it boring. I think I enjoyed it with him because I was so aroused by the time we got around to penetrative sex. But even then I don't orgasm from it. The last two guys I had sex after him were awful. And kinda made me realise just how much I don't enjoy sex with men. I don't like sex where they seem to think my pleasure is entirely centred in my genitals, and if they move quickly after a snog to lick and rub that, then that is all they need to do.

Does anyone else feel like this? TBH I am wondering whether or not to bother trying to find a man to have a relationship with. The thought of crap sex just puts me off.

[FifteenToes]

Everyone seems to know different stats on the number of women who can cum from PiV. Those I remember reading were around 50%, so certainly not "the vast majority can't". That was some time ago though. But what's clear anyway is that the assumptions that that's THE ultimate thing that sex is about, and that with a "normal" couple under normal circumstances that's what happens, are wildly wrong.

I think men HOPE that women cum through PIV sex, because that's generally how they achieve orgasm. If their partner can get off from it too, then hooray, they don't need to bother with anything else!"

Honestly I think it's even simpler than that. We've just never been taught that it might be any other way.

Patriarchy really has a lot to answer for. The entire sequential goal-based paradigm of how sex works is based on the satisfaction of men. (Well, ultimately it's probably based on reproduction, which requires male orgasm but doesn't require female orgasm to occur). This is so deeply embedded in all aspects of culture. In American films and TV shows for example they talk about it like a baseball game: "Getting to third base". "Oooh, I got to second base with her last night!"

Of course we then encounter women for whom this really doesn't work. Some of them it kind of half-works just well enough that they figure it's OK. Some fake it. Some blame themselves and think they're defective, because they've not been taught it could be any other way either. But it's rare that anybody of either sex thinks that maybe the whole paradigm needs changing. Except maybe for lesbians I suppose.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

@FifteenToes

Everyone seems to know different stats on the number of women who can cum from PiV. Those I remember reading were around 50%, so certainly not "the vast majority can't". That was some time ago though. But what's clear anyway is that the assumptions that that's THE ultimate thing that sex is about, and that with a "normal" couple under normal circumstances that's what happens, are wildly wrong.

I think men HOPE that women cum through PIV sex, because that's generally how they achieve orgasm. If their partner can get off from it too, then hooray, they don't need to bother with anything else!"

Honestly I think it's even simpler than that. We've just never been taught that it might be any other way.

Patriarchy really has a lot to answer for. The entire sequential goal-based paradigm of how sex works is based on the satisfaction of men. (Well, ultimately it's probably based on reproduction, which requires male orgasm but doesn't require female orgasm to occur). This is so deeply embedded in all aspects of culture. In American films and TV shows for example they talk about it like a baseball game: "Getting to third base". "Oooh, I got to second base with her last night!"

Of course we then encounter women for whom this really doesn't work. Some of them it kind of half-works just well enough that they figure it's OK. Some fake it. Some blame themselves and think they're defective, because they've not been taught it could be any other way either. But it's rare that anybody of either sex thinks that maybe the whole paradigm needs changing. Except maybe for lesbians I suppose.

I just think we aren't taught how to have sex. We're taught the biology, the mechanics of reproduction but that's it. Everything else we learn as we go along through experience and trial and error. It's no surprise that is going to be as variable as the sum of the experience each individual has had is it?

[smallskylight]

@Planbforme It was the most dehumanising experience of my life. I wish I could say why I didn’t tell him to leave or stop
Oh God PlanB, what an awful experience, it sounds more like an assault that a consensual experience. I really hate the porn that is around now, because of what you have described. We have a fucking multi-national companies wiring men around the world to get off on degrading and hurting women. Why isn't this seen as a scandal that governments and lawmakers need to address?
Maybe fear made you not object. As women we are brought up on a lot of images on what happens to women who make men angry. And when its just you and him in a private space, and you have to stop to put your clothes on to get away - so you can't even make a quick run for it, even if you thought you could get to the door quicker than him - I can see why you wouldn't want to risk angering a man who treats you like that when he is calm. Imagine what he could do when he was het up, being refused and angry. What happens to women in the porn he watches if they refuse? I understand why you, or any women, would hold back from objecting.

I just think we aren't taught how to have sex. We're taught the biology, the mechanics of reproduction but that's it Well I think School teaches the mechanics, even modern day sex ed I have seen which is more about sex acts, looks bloody horrible. I've seen training materials with dice with body parts named on dice, then you roll the two dice and have to create a sex act based on that. So still mechanical sex, more likely to please boys than girls. Where is the teaching about connection and attunement and sensuality and eroticism, and communication - it's okay for your partner to say 'no that doesn't feel good for me.' Dont' get pissed and take it as a rejection or inadequacy on your behalf.
But the saddest thing is, young people, especially boys but girls too, are being 'taught' how to have sex via violent misogynistic porn. I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming about the horrible effects this is having. When you have 11 year old boys watching porn saying ' we know what you want - it is what all men want' and then violent degrading crap is presented to them - of course they learn, this is how to have sex. And then get wired to need that. I genuinely think it should be regarded as a public health crisis.

Fifteen toes - I loved you piano analogy! They should teach that in schools!

[LexMitior]

I don’t really you can generalise. Some of this is about your “due diligence” when you first start to see someone.

Fact is, women tend to hang on to chaps who are generous in bed and attentive. Simply because they are having better sex.

Consequently you’ve got more of the other kind of chap. They try hard to get you to do all that they want, with reference to other women, porn, etc. It’s not about you but them. If it’s not mutually fun then don’t bother.

I think you are really complaining that porn has coarsened men in how they treat women. Well I think basically you have to draw a line early on; it’s your body. Men will sometimes be as coarse as they can be because it’s a lot easier on them. That’s human - but not romantic.

If you want a romantic man they are hard to find. They always are.

[LikeDuhWhatever]

What’s really annoying is how vaginal orgasm seems to be the holy grail, the ultimate goal of lovemaking. And it implicates that a clitorial one is somehow inferior. Even women perpetuate this. Especially women! Just read this thread, or the other one someone linked in a couple of pages ago. Women congratulate each other on having a vaginal orgasm with you are soooo lucky or I wish I had one. Women who never or very rarely have it feel like shit, as if they are sexually deficient. Well, fuck that shit!
An orgasm is an orgasm and there’s no need to perpetuate this myth that the vaginal is superior to the clitorial one. Superior to whom? The man you are having sex with? It is not up to him to decide what’s good for me. It is my body, my sensation and my decision how I feel about it. If he doesn’t like clitorial ones he can fuck right off. He is clueless anyway because women often fake orgasms.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

@LikeDuhWhatever

What’s really annoying is how vaginal orgasm seems to be the holy grail, the ultimate goal of lovemaking. And it implicates that a clitorial one is somehow inferior. Even women perpetuate this. Especially women! Just read this thread, or the other one someone linked in a couple of pages ago. Women congratulate each other on having a vaginal orgasm with you are soooo lucky or I wish I had one. Women who never or very rarely have it feel like shit, as if they are sexually deficient. Well, fuck that shit!
An orgasm is an orgasm and there’s no need to perpetuate this myth that the vaginal is superior to the clitorial one. Superior to whom? The man you are having sex with? It is not up to him to decide what’s good for me. It is my body, my sensation and my decision how I feel about it. If he doesn’t like clitorial ones he can fuck right off. He is clueless anyway because women often fake orgasms.

But you've gone there from the "it's up to me to say what feels good to me" - yes it is - to criticising other women who say "this is what feels good for me".

It's up to each individual, and each couple, to decide what they like and don't like and what they will and won't do. Just because you don't get enjoyment from something you don't really get to say other women are wrong for enjoying it. That's up to them - it's their body to enjoy how they want.

[Planbforme]

@smallskylight

Thank you very much. I remember a lot from that experience & I agree — it was more like an assault — he also started PiV without my consent while I still had my knickers on. He Caught me totally off guard and I just went along with it despite not really wanting to. And then all the choking & slapping started. I think I told him to stop the choking and he did as I hated it but I can’t remember. I suppose I have learned that I’ll never again get intimate with any man ever until we’re in a proper relationship & I trust him fully. It is the only such experience I have had but it left a mark.

To better sex for us all in the future!

As for porn, it is a problem. That guy admitted he was addicted to porn and could only come if the woman was submissive.

[LexMitior]

As an orgasm is always the same, with the same person? Ideally there is lots of variety!

Okay so you have a duff partner. But if you don’t know what you need and how, then no, you won’t get the good stuff. Find a partner with more experience! If you want to be with them then it can happen. And pick a partner where you are crazy about them and they you.

Orgasms are not difficult to have if you have the right partner. They are nearly impossible to have if you feel awkward, unhappy, compared to pork, previous partners or feel uncomfortable with your body.

The right person will get all that. Because they will want you to have a great time.

[LexMitior]

Okay - not compared to pork, compared to porn. My predictive text is prudish!

[category12]

Being compared to pork would be equally unsettling.

[smallskylight]

LexMItior You're argument seems to be that its not a problem that boys and men across the world are being sexually wired to be sexually aroused to degrade and hurt women (which you minimise as 'coarsened') - because women can just say 'no thanks'. That has to be one of the most ultra-individualist arguments I have ever heard. I profoundly disagree with it.

[LexMitior]

I wouldn’t agree. I’m not happy with porn at all and it’s influence on a relationship (lots of prior posts on that one!) but really that puts the emphasis on the woman to make very selective choices if she wants to pursue a relationship with a man.

You can see my attitude to porn on other threads on this board.

[smallskylight]

But you've gone there from the "it's up to me to say what feels good to me" - yes it is - to criticising other women who say "this is what feels good for me"

I don't think that is what Like Duh was saying. I think her point was clear - it wasnt' about women not being able to say what they like - but the point that vaginal orgasms and coveted and congratulated in a way clitoral orgasms are not. Why is this? Maybe because we know it would please the man if we did?

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

@smallskylight

But you've gone there from the "it's up to me to say what feels good to me" - yes it is - to criticising other women who say "this is what feels good for me"

I don't think that is what Like Duh was saying. I think her point was clear - it wasnt' about women not being able to say what they like - but the point that vaginal orgasms and coveted and congratulated in a way clitoral orgasms are not. Why is this? Maybe because we know it would please the man if we did?

This what was said

Women congratulate each other on having a vaginal orgasm with you are soooo lucky or I wish I had one.

Women saying they wish they had one is up to them. That's what they want. They can express what they want for themselves.

[LikeDuhWhatever]

In order to reach orgasm with someone you also have to factor in a worry- and stress free lovemaking. If you worry about how you look, whether he finds you attractive enough, the size of your bum, about getting pregnant or catching STD, someone barging in on you etc..then it will be way more difficult to relax and reach climax. Make sure there’s nothing else on your mind but the deed itself.

[LexMitior]

@LikeDuhWhatever

Exactly. You need to be relaxed and comfortable. If you aren’t, then the chances of coming are reduced, whatever the person.

[smallskylight]

Hearhooves

Well I think the point is whether people act completely independently or within a culture, but whatever.

[Sickoffamilydrama]

@Planbforme sorry to hear that, I'm sure lots of women have done things they weren't happy with. I've had sex with people I didn't want to because I was to shy to say no and we'd already got so far.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras for me orgasms can only be through clitoral stimulation but I can orgasm from PIV if it's the right position I wouldn't necessarily make the distinction that you have so would say I can orgasm through vaginal sex. I don't think it's the holy grail though

[Planbforme]

Thanks @Sickoffamilydrama That makes me feel better. He didn’t look for consent & I was too shy to stop it once it started.

[Whathewhatnow]

Stupid q from me... is a clitoral orgasm achieved through clitoral stimulation only,but without penetration?? And a vaginal one from penetration but no manual allied stimulation?!?!
OP I dont think it sounds like you fancy women, which is a pretty fundamental barrier to having sex with them.
The men you have been with sound rubbish apart from the amazing one. What a shame he had mental health issues.

I've only ever had great sex with unusual men who really, really did feelings, empathy, and care. I think there are men like this out there but they are rare, and that might be your main problem. And mine :(

As an aside though, why are so many men acclimatised to this grim, mechanical, sex doll porn? Why do they think that is enough? Surely they should be able to make a separation between what they watch for a quick thrill and actual sex with a partner.

[Whathewhatnow]

@Planbforme he sounds absolutely awful. You poor thing.

[LexMitior]

Be fair; if you watch mainstream pornography and are very stupid, you may consider that what is intended for masturbation works for you and a partner. That it can reduce a partner to the status of a wank sock is not the fault of the partner, but the idiot who assumes it is okay.

Just give porn addled men a wide berth. They are happier with a screen in reality. It is less pressure than thinking about the other person.

[Whathewhatnow]

I just dont get why porn is so, so influential, supposedly. It's not like we all watch The Matrix and think that is an accurate portrayal of life.... it's like people are so stupid they cannot entertain two different realities.... I find it boggling. Although I do question anyone who can get off on mainstream M/F porn.. it's just so utterly ridiculous.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

I do think it's mainly because sex is the only thing that we don't learn about at all really.

Pick any other subject and if it's not well represented in films, you'll see it on TV, or documentaries, or in real life in lots of different situations. But sex you only really learn about by doing it, or in some cases, by watching porn. Where do young men learn how to have sex? It's really only going to be from having sex (apart from porn) and if their partners never communicate what feels good, or what works better etc and even worse pretends that it feels good when it doesn't well then they just carry on doing it.

I'd wager that the men who are the best lovers have, at some point, had partners who communicates really well during sex.

[Planbforme]

I always communicated with LTPs but it isn’t always taken in. I communicated a lot to my STBEXH but every time was still like the first time, so I just gave up trying (& having sex!!) in the end!