Anyone else have a poor relationship with their DM?

[LAwonder]

It’s complicated. She has narcissistic traits, probably because her own childhood wasn’t great. My childhood wasn’t awful, no abuse, but looking back I always felt upset. DM is very self absorbed, thinks she can say and do what she likes and no one is allowed to react. I pushed against that and now we’re NC.

I don’t really see any alternatives. She won’t change. So either I sacrifice my sanity and mental health or we stay how we are.

I wish I had a close loving relationship with her. I wish I could tell her all the little things about the DC, about me, about our life. I wish I could invite her in to share some of it with us. But honestly, keeping her at a distance feels like the healthiest thing for me.

I’ve been on stately homes threads on and off for years. I’ve had therapy. I understand FOG, I understand grieving for things you didn’t have abd overall I am now used to this situation, but once in a while I just feel a bit lost and a bit sad about it all that this might be it. I think the damage to our relationship is so concrete now, I’m not sure we could ever go back (and back to what anyway??).

It’s been 2 years of LC then NC. I never planned to write her off, I don’t want to write her off. And NC forever just seems shit. But the alternative feels futile too.

Bit late! Eek. But she would have contacted me as I am expected to text her every morning. I know, I know...

Yes, I had a thread about her latest outburst last week, where I decided to get a low paid/not highly thought of in the eyes of some job in order to start retraining.

She is very me me me. She frequently tries to isolate me and makes me feel guilty, reminds me how my birth defect ruined her life, hates my DH.

She resfuses point blank to wear a mask, I don't mind and have been wearing one since quite early in lockdown despite not being able to breathe through my nose too well. Her comments when I said, it's only for 20 mins or so to get groceries were, "Well I can see why you like it, you have something to hide on your face." That was such a WTF momemt. She's conditioned me to feel worthless.

I am trying for LC. She's on holiday now visiting an elderly aunt. She usually calls me several times a day, at the moment she calls for a few minutes when she is out of the way of auntie because I am so embarrassing and doesn't like children. DD is 5 now and I suggested a 2 min video call, just to say hello. I thought it may cheer auntie up. M refused because "I don't want her to see you." Poor DD is so confused as to why Granny doesn't call, to me it's bliss not dealing with 4 calls a day.

I tolerate all this because I want my mum and want her to love me, be proud and probably cuddle me, all those little girl things I have never had. Some lovely posters on here helped me realise she'll never change and I am sorting out some therapy.

It hurts, OP. But you are strong!

@LAwonder
Last night I couldn't articulate what drove me to the tipping point and how I've expunged the rage, it was an interesting few hours in my head before I dropped off. Thank you, it's helped me to work out how I got there.
My son got married, his in laws are lovely people, his wife is fantastic. In a large group setting I could see exactly how toxic mother is. Most people think that she's lovely but I know that she's not. That's the last time I saw her, 5 years ago.
Now, how did I get away, it's going to sound odd but Mumsnet has really helped me. I learned what Grey Rock means, I used that very effectively the last time I spoke to her.
I realised from reading other people's stories that she's not going to change. It was up to me to change and manage my behaviour. Attila won't know this but she's made a lot of sense to me over the few years I've been on here. Even though I've never had contact with her. I read and absorbed all that she has written.
It was time for me to take charge of my own emotions and stop letting mother win iyswim. I worked the rage out bit by bit, each time I thought of her I deliberately moved my mind away from her. I tried to think of nice happy things, small pleasures in life. Every time I thought of a shitty thing she's done or said, I would ask myself Can I Change that? Obviously the answer was always no. The next thought was, how do I reframe this, who is more important here me or her? Obviously me.
My mantra was I cannot change her, I can only change me. Over and over. When I was out walking the dogs, gardening doing the ironing or just living, I kept repeating that.
Her bitterness, nastiness and unpleasant behaviour isn't my responsibility. My biggest responsibility is to my own mental health. I refused to give head space to a person that had treated me badly. As soon as she popped into my head I deliberately dislodged her. By thinking of nicer stuff, stuff that makes me happy. My grandsons, my garden, my friends, normal people who quite like me.
It wasn't easy and it's taken me a while but I'm in a better place now. I can think about her without feeling the rage, that can only be a good thing.
I matter, I'm the most important person in my head, I'm the only one who should be in my head. That sounds a bit daft but she was taking up too much space. Other things are more important.
Again I wish you all the best.

Stormy I'm so sorry, I'm shocked by your post. How would she react to you cutting off?

And Thisfucker I agree, Attila is brilliant!

[Bold]Pollo[bold] She threatens that when DD is 18 she'll tell DD all about how awful I am and how I stopped their relationship. She'd also play the victim. I have relalised I have to stop trying.

This thread could have been written for me.

I went NC with my mother approximately 10 years ago - after one nasty incident too many, which was my final cut off point. In hindsight I wished I had done it sooner, but, like so many people have said on other threads, it really is difficult to acknowledge that your own mother is actually not a very nice person.

When my mother's nastiness started to spill over towards her only two grandchildren, (my children), I knew that enough was finally enough.

My older sibling was always the golden child. I was the (literal) punchbag of both of them. My father died when I was younger.

I “justified” my going NC with her from a moral perspective as my sibling was sole beneficiary under my mother’s will (because I refused to name one of my daughters after her!!) and had taken all the important documentation from her property when she started to show signs of dementia. I didn’t merely abandon my mother and did all the right things to ensure she ended up with the appropriate care etc. It was my brother who finally ceased contact with me, despite me trying to maintain a relationship of sorts. In time he too stopped visiting my mother in her care home. He was next of kin for their purposes.

And so, a couple of days ago, I received a phone call from my uncle that I knew I would receive one day - my mother had passed away in her sleep. His was the only number the care home had, as the number my brother had given to the care home was no longer in use and hadn’t been for many years.

This gives me closure - as had my uncle not had my number I would never have received this news. But the old wounds have re-opened and I’m angry that I cannot properly grieve a mother who loved me. I’m angry and upset because I didn’t have what others had, and what I’m, hopefully, giving my children - total unconditional love.

I apologise if I am derailing this thread, but thank you @LAwonder for posting your post and enabling me to get this off my chest.

@Pinkballoonsandpompoms 💐

I’m so sorry. You deserved to be loved and nurtured.

@Pinkballoonsandpompoms I’m really sorry you’re going through this 💐💐💐💚💚💚

I read this thread but haven’t posted before but really wanted to say I know how very hard it must be and how much pain must be getting dredged up.

Take care of yourself.

Stormy and Pink , wow. You've been through so much , I'm so sorry. Wishing you some freedom and contentment

Thank you for your kind words, @SnapCackleFlop, @PolloDePrimavera and @Fanthorpe, and I am sorry not to have replied sooner. I’ve been doing a lot of reading about this whole issue on the wider internet but keep being drawn back to this thread.

In particular the following from @Thisfucker rang true, and I realise that subconsciously this is why I finally cut the ties some years ago, although I hadn’t articulated that to myself:

I cannot change her, I can only change me.
Her bitterness, nastiness and unpleasant behaviour isn't my responsibility. My biggest responsibility is to my own mental health.

And I added onto that the mental/emotional health of my children also.

I have read and re-read @AttilaTheMeerkat's advice, and this keeps jumping out at me in relation to my children:

Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family.

Again, this clearly gives voice to my reasoning for cutting those ties. I was widowed when my children were very young - there was no way I was going to allow my mother to do to those vulnerable youngsters what she’d done to me and everyone she’d ever come into contact with over the years.

Finally, I wholeheartedly “get” where the poster is coming from who said they’re almost ashamed that they don’t have a normal loving relationship with their mother - apologies but I cannot find who said that! I do feel ashamed - BUT - I do realise none of this is my fault.

It’s all so odd. My FIL died (90) during lockdown from Covid-19 and people sent cards and flowers to us and my MIL. Nobody is sending me cards because......well, just because really.......I suppose........

Thank you from the bottom of my heart @LAwonder for starting this, and I truly hope you find peace within yourself going forward on this journey x

@Pinkballoonsandpompoms if I knew you in RL I’d be sending you a card and flowers 🙂🌷🌹🌸

I’m heartbroken for you because I think that losing a parent is always hard but when the relationship is very difficult it’s in many ways even worse.

I was thinking about you and wondering how things are and how you’re feeling? x

@SnapCackleFlop thank you for your kindness. It was the funeral today, in my home town. I didn't attend. To be fair my brother has stepped up to the mark and did arrange everything, but he's pragmatic and acknowledged that "somebody" had to do it". An assortment of relatives did attend - graveside burial - and my brother was able to tell them I couldn't attend as I am actually subject to a local lockdown where I live (a bonus from Covid!!). The relatives who did attend know her history, they know her character, but I guess they attended out of a sense of duty/respect. And that's fine. How do I feel? Right now very angry because I'm grieving what I didn't have but ought to have had. Angry that I couldn't be part of the gathering this morning but it wouldn't have been right. I actually feel that by keeping away I've given my mum what she wanted - she made no secret of the fact she favoured my brother so in death she got her wish. I wouldn't wish this on anyone by the way, it's just awful. Oh, I wrote the eulogy and sent it to the Celebrant - everyone said how wonderful it was...... X

I realized I dropped off my own thread and feel the need to somewhat apologize.... especially to @Thisfucker seeing as you took the time to reflect and answer in such detail about how you turned things around. You are very strong to be able to do what you did.

And sorry too to @Pinkballoonsandpompoms for not replying to you when you were going through a tough time. How have you been feeling since?

I’ve had zero contact with DM since I last posted. I’ve also come off social media and have been asked by my stepdad if we’ll be posting any photos at all (of the kids) again. I’ve said that I’m a bit fed up of mindless scrolling and gawking at other people’s lives and would prefer more meaningful contact over the low-effort “keeping in touch” that fb offers.

To be honest, I hadn’t thought about anyone else when I stopped my social media, just felt like the right thing for me at that moment. Now I feel a mix of guilt - because at least it was some way of sharing our lives with DM and DSD, and also feel annoyed - like why should they get the pleasure of watching our lives via FB yet can’t actually make real contact.

Even my long lost relative has emailed to say “Totally get why fb has had its day, however I’ll miss your photos and seeing what you get up to, please will you send me some by email once in a while?”... And actually this is the point, I would rather share specific things with specific people and make interactions a bit more meaningful overall.

But this has popped up during a week where I’ve been in “thinking about DM” mode. It all feels so sad and random that we’ve got to this point. Yet I genuinely don’t see much in the way of alternatives. Does she “deserve” NC? Yes we had a spat and it felt like the straw that broke this camel’s back at the time, but did things really need to end up here?

I’ve read back all the old messages from when everything kicked off. We were both feisty, I certainly had my guard up and was not feeling very forgiving. Was I too harsh? I am not sure. I do know that I felt that she’d got away with doing or saying whatever she liked for such a long time and at that moment I just couldn’t do it anymore, I had to call her out on her on it.

And now a couple of years down the road here we are. The gap between us feels like it gets wider every day and it feels hopeless, pointless, unsalvageable, impossible to do anything about it.

NC feels like a heavy burden today. But letting back in doesn’t feel right either. Even if I wanted things to be better, I am fairly sure she’d use these years of NC against me, and they’d be there every time we looked at each other.

Anyway, just needed to get that off my chest. I hate that there’s no real answers to any of this, just choices that don’t really feel like real choices.

Hello.

Sorry you are struggling.

The only advice I can give is to concentrate on what is best for you and your family.

When I read your post, it seemed like you are struggling with the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt)

If having her back in your life is going to cause you stress and anxiety, it’s not worth it. Maybe think about what would need to happen first for her to be in your life.

For me, acknowledgment of her behaviour without blaming someone else, would be number one, followed by an apology.

If you haven’t explored the FOG, have a look. But don’t put her feelings above your own.

Can the FOG ever truly go though?

I don’t know if I want her back in our lives.... she would be the same person after all, she is who she is, and I think I just don’t like her very much. My perceptions of her have evolved and changed over the past years and I don’t think it’s possible to see her in a different light now. But she’s not evil. She herself is damaged. Should I be more forgiving?

Could I bring myself to “tolerate” her? Probably. But she’s astute enough to feel it. And surely even the most narcissistic of narcs would feel hurt being being tolerated than genuinely loved?

I can’t imagine having a decent relationship with her. I feel wary of her subtly manipulative ways. NC does feel like the safest place for me. And for the children too.

She’s in her 70s. Could I live with my choice that her last years will be spent like this?

OP, I went nc with my parents when I was pregnant with my first child. I never regretted the decision and I didn’t attend their funerals either.
The only grief I felt was for the mother I never had - a loving, caring, supportive mother, who wasn’t a hypercritical, cold, selfish narcissist who saw her daughters as competition for attention that she wanted all to herself.
People with normal mothers never understand what our lives are like - they are aghast that we are nc, they bleat “But she’s your mother“ - as though that gives her a free pass to abuse us, and we are meant to tolerate it.
I would continue with your therapy, grieve for what you were denied, work through your feelings and come out the other side free of the FOG. Live your own life, be the good mother to your own DC that you didn’t have. Break the cycle of abuse.
I used my parents as a role model of how NOT to parent. My DDs are grown up now and we all love each other and have a very normal great relationship. You will get there too. Don’t look back - look forwards.

Yes. I had therapy.
My therapist asked give me some examples of when your mum was warm, loving, praised you or made you feel special.
I couldn't think of anything warm or loving or any praise. It took ages to think of anything special - a couple of birthday parties, a few nice gifts.
I was fed and clothed but mostly ignored.
I was bullied by my sibling (her favourite) which she not only allowed but on occasion encouraged.
I'm very low contact. She's very selfish, critical and cold.
All I hear is how fantastic my horrible sibling is (her favourite). She also has told my df to write me out of their will because of some bollocks. He refused.

Great to hear you have broken the mound @Babdoc with super relationships with your DC. Good for you, it’s not easy.

@Zenithbear my therapist had asked the same actually. I’m sorry to hear that you struggled to think of fond times. I can think of many “nice” times but don’t recall ever feeling relaxed or at ease.

I know I need to accept that there is nowhere else to go from here. I’m very tired of all the emotions. Can I stop adulting for a while please?!?!?

Thanks, OP. I just wanted to encourage you and others, to reassure you that you CAN escape from toxic mothers and have a happier bond with your own DC.
None of us can change the past, or turn our mothers into kind loving people, but the future is ours, and we can make it a happier one.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Pollo

I would think twice before writing to your mother because she could well turn that against you. What such people like she wants is a response, that to her is the reward. Would suggest you go radio silent on her instead.

I agree with this. I have a toxic mother and over the years she has fallen out with just about everyone in the family. We tried to reconcile last year, but she had a go at me for supporting BLM. She sent me a long and ranting missive, but this time instead of getting drawn in, I gave radio silence and blocked her.

It's just shocking that there are so many of us who have toxic mothers. I wouldn't dream of treating my DC the way my mother has. It is sickening.

@DDIJ since your post, your comments have echoed with me for the past few weeks. My DM had told me about what a difficult baby I was, and how hard it was for her etc etc and it made me realize how inwardly surprised I was, as a kid myself, when friends’ mums seemed to enjoy their children’s company....and that new mums seemed to love their babies despite finding it hard at times - and that they found joy in being a mum. To be fair to DM, she had talked about the pleasure of little fingers, and first smiles too, and even professes to have felt that becoming a mother was the making of her and something she felt confidently good at (oh the irony). I guess I was left feeling confused that it didn’t feel this way on the receiving end!

I have also found this on the reverse too - that children could like their own mothers, and it’s made me realize that on some level I haven’t expected my own children to like me, and have totally underestimated how much they do. It makes me want to be a better person so that they keep liking me but also fuck, what a responsibility to be a decent role model seeing as they seem to think I’m so great!! And Christ, how delicate and important that is to have their admiration, and how could I ever throw that away? I’m so frigging lucky.

In other news... a dear friend of mine lost a parent to covid recently. This has made me reflect again on NC with DM. I’d been discussing with DH whether I should send a message to say “I do think about you and I do care, despite the fact that we can’t seem to communicate” or words to that effect. But I don’t know what I would hope to get out of that to be perfectly honest, I cannot get straight in my head what I actually want from her or want from a relationship with her.

Then there was yesterday’s news of another lockdown, so I saw it as a moment, or reason, to be in touch so I sent a quick message saying hope they are ok and can manage this next lockdown ok. I got a quick one liner back, closed, and like you would respond to someone you don’t know very well. Ironically, this is how she accused me of communicating with her when I was LC/grey-rocking. A taste of my own medicine I suspect.

I didn’t expect an invitation to reply really but had wondered if it might open the lines of conversation or communication a little.

Even if I wanted to have a decent relationship with her, I know she’d make me work for it, that I’d have to “do a lot to undo the hurt I’ve caused her during this punishment” and I guess the one liner is evidence of this... she could’ve been a bit softer, a bit more open, to show that she might’ve been willing to move forward... but she didn’t.

And now I also remember that one of the benefits of NC is no need to analyze or second guess the meaning behind every interaction!!

LAWonder

Please DO NOT send her any more communications; it really is no point and you will receive the response you always get from her, her response really was I expected. Such people like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Do not poke the bear. There may well be other lockdowns going forward; again this is no reason to contact your mother. You only did so anyway because you are empathetic and kind; your mother is none of those things and really could not care less about you. Messaging her merely gives her ammo to fire back at you and with you supplying the bullets.

You will need to grieve ultimately for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Its really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

I know, I know. She will never apologise or take responsibility for any of this... this much is clear.

Honestly I think I’ve been grieving my whole life for the relationship we never had. I can remember feeling so upset/confused/frustrated/angry/hurt by her as a kid that although i couldn’t articulate the feelings at the time, I knew things weren’t quite right.

When I was about 13/14 I remember having an argument with her (god knows over what but she’d flown into a rage over something) and I wrote a list of all her bad qualities. The list went on and on and on, it poured out of me... it felt so cathartic at the time, and I think I put it down to normal mother-daughter stuff. It was only years later that I realized it wasn’t normal, and that no one else I knew had such a relationship with their DMs - and that I’d been led to believe those DMs were just soft or weak or uneducated.

So many truths I’ve discovered since my 20s!!!

LAwonder

I have been having similar thoughts about getting in touch with my mother. I have been NC with her and my sister for 2 and a half years. I haven’t been in touch because I remind myself of what it was like when we were in contact.
Fear, obligation and guilt aren’t good reasons for me to contact them so I have to sit with my feelings and know that I am doing the right thing.
As far as what others think, the damage has already been done and I know that the two of them will have painted me as selfish, cruel and evil. Nothing I do now will change that. I no longer have any contact with any of my extended family either so there are times when I feel isolated but I’d rather that than being abused.
Anyway, it is tough.