Anyone else have a poor relationship with their DM?

[LAwonder]

It’s complicated. She has narcissistic traits, probably because her own childhood wasn’t great. My childhood wasn’t awful, no abuse, but looking back I always felt upset. DM is very self absorbed, thinks she can say and do what she likes and no one is allowed to react. I pushed against that and now we’re NC.

I don’t really see any alternatives. She won’t change. So either I sacrifice my sanity and mental health or we stay how we are.

I wish I had a close loving relationship with her. I wish I could tell her all the little things about the DC, about me, about our life. I wish I could invite her in to share some of it with us. But honestly, keeping her at a distance feels like the healthiest thing for me.

I’ve been on stately homes threads on and off for years. I’ve had therapy. I understand FOG, I understand grieving for things you didn’t have abd overall I am now used to this situation, but once in a while I just feel a bit lost and a bit sad about it all that this might be it. I think the damage to our relationship is so concrete now, I’m not sure we could ever go back (and back to what anyway??).

It’s been 2 years of LC then NC. I never planned to write her off, I don’t want to write her off. And NC forever just seems shit. But the alternative feels futile too.

@LAwonder the saying ‘when someone shows you who they are believe it’ rings very true and I think is very important to remember. I always thought maybe my mum would change as now I’m an adult/she’ll appreciate being back in contact/she’s now got grandkids etc etc and my sister still clings to that hope that she will change. However I’ve realised she never ever will.
She’s had my niece and nephew and my sister in sobbing tears after a visit. I don’t want my children to have to be exposed to situations like that. It’s my job to protect them so why would I put us in a situation where my mum is a horrible bitch who upsets us and then my kids have to deal with the fall out from that?

I do get your view that people seem to think it’s a silly argument and most people can’t understand how a lifetime of being found down/abused/put down/aggressive passive remarks/lack of love can be really upsetting and something that is nearly impossible to get past. Most people love and respect their mums and have mums who will do anything for them and come round at the drop of a hat. My mum refused to look after my niece and nephew for an hour while my sister went to an important hospital appt and she had to cancel as she couldn’t get any other childcare (I live 2.5 hours away), when my sister split up with my nephews dad she was told my mum didn’t want her to come for Christmas (and my sister has spent every single Xmas with my mum up to that point) and was told my sister and baby newphew should find somewhere else to go for Christmas (as had split up so didn’t even have her partners family to go to) obviously I made her come to me for Christmas! But this is the sort of woman we are dealing with. Other mums would have any waif or stray for Xmas didn’t so they aren’t alone!

I don’t think the grief of not having loving and present parents will ever go away. I have times I don’t think about it but things pop up that remind me of what I don’t have- the bugs things like Mother’s Day/Xmas etc but also the little things like when a friends mum wrote me a lovely card for thanking me for helping her daughter through a difficult time and realising my mum would never write me a card like that let alone write one to one of my friends!

you're right @cornish

the guilt is so overwhelming at times. and I can truly say I did have a reasonable relationship with her for most of my life. we used to chat daily/send silly anecdotes and pictures etc so this past 3 years has been horrendous (especially as I have a 3yr old and 1 year old so should be the best years of my life sharing things with her)

But then the realisation that I'm not good enough/my kids aren't treated fairly etc etc makes me feel anger. its a never ending circle of emotions.

sorry OP iv hijacked your thread with my own ramblings.....

I hope you are feeling a bit better.

There has been wonderful perspectives on here, which have helped me also, so thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Its a really sad situation, and despite therapy getting you to understand the dynamic it does leave you to greive the loss.
I too have a very difficult relationship with my mother and have gone LC but did chat to my therapist that I am contemplating NC.
I think there is a bit of stigma around NC? Like its something you enforce with an abusive ex partner etc.
I am trying to reframe it as its healthier for me to not be continually abused rather than NC. As in if she were to change the situation may also change?
However this is unlikely as she is getting worse as she ages even less self aware etc.
A lot of the stuff here was that people have replied is we should make allowances, accept them as they are etc.
I feel I have done this my whole life and my wanting a close relationship with my mum has allowed her to abuse me.
I am actually very angry and bitter at the moment as I learned people pleasing from her and my violent Father. This has continued my whole life and opened me up to abuse from partners, friends, family members and work colleagues.
But I still have to ' be nice, forgive' etc!!
How different my life could have been, how much more assertive I should have become but still its on us.
Of course we want a proper Mother, its really sad that they cant see its them so I think @katy1213 has the best idea, seek out a lovely surrogate who would be delighted to adopt you 😊
As for kids, they see more than you realise. My 20 something told me in his own words his evaluation of my Mother without any prompting. Its us that makes excuses for them.

@cornishacid that sounds so tough to have that fear/threat hanging over you. Geographical distance definitely helps I hear you with the poor sense of self too. I really struggle to treat myself with even basic things like nice toiletries and new clothes and feel guilty for being indulgent or vain if I do.

@Immigrantsong Same here with the final straw. With no apology and no inkling of any accountability. She is the wounded victim, I am the evil daughter for not putting up with the crap she flung about at what was perhaps the weakest and most vulnerable times of my life. We’ve been LC for about 2 years and NC for the past 6 months.

@katy1213 I have a lovely relationship with my step-mother which I’m very grateful for. She’s all the things my DM is not.

@lilsquish feel free to offload here! The unpredictability is really tough to deal with. And realizing certain things is tough too, and I don’t think you can go back once those things have come to light.

@BrieAndChilli No I know she won’t change. I think that’s what I’m struggling with - that where we are is all there is now. If I don’t like her very much, how and why would I let her back in. It is a kind of grief, always there, some days more than others.

@Mintypylonsfryingsurplus I talked to my therapist about how to frame LC/NC myself and instead of it being positioned as punishment (ie according to DM) I really do see it as self-protection. And the proof is in the pudding in that I have felt so free by not being in touch. Of course it’s not black and white and as you can see, it brings its own complications, but I honestly can’t see an alternative. I too think I spent my whole life having to accept/forgive/forget and the last incident was just a step too far.

@LAwonder it sounds as if you really understand it all but putting that so important self care into practise is so hard isnt it?
We converse in our heads that we are worth more but very hard to always 'feel' that.
My extremely toxic childhood meant that until my late 30's I was very angry, confrontational, victim like, basically not a good person. Looking back I over reacted to people at the same time allowing people to abuse me. This fed the cycle of feeling bad.
It took a lot of work, therapy and forgiving myself which I am working on every day.
Had I had a better start my life could have been very different. But I really wanted to change, and be happier.
But I now really understand, that just because I wanted/needed to change/ recover, not everyone else does.
So the exhausting cycle of trying/ working with them/ resentment is too draining when it is all coming from you.
Acceptance is the best we can hope for both of yourself and of them and the situation. Some people I think are not capable of this or just don't think they need to modify their behaviour.
But its very hard and very sad.
I do hope you make peace with all of this.

Thank you @Mintypylonsfryingsurplus, it sounds like you’ve worked very hard to get where you are and I hope your upward journey continues.

Dm is quite subtly toxic. Not overtly. And this is where I am constantly puzzled and confused and second-guessing her and myself. Blatant abuse is not what I would’ve wished for but I wonder if it would’ve been clearer.

But I am getting there. I understand a lot now. Probably more about her than about myself. That’s what I need to work on now. I’m 40 and feel it’s time that I felt good about myself.

@LAwonder its really hard to pull apart. As we get older, I think we realise relationships should be easier, we start to not tolerate abuse and knowing ourselves, having a stronger identity, not so concerned with fitting in.
We want to be valued, so when we are with entangled with someone who makes us feel bad we naturally want to step back.
Its not like being a child where you have to put up with it as you have nowhere to go, toxic people know they have lost ultimate power so use subtle ways instead?
Blimey its taken me years and I nearly 50 and still massively struggle.
All relationships for me are hard, it makes me sad that I often feel the outsider.
I just focus on myself, DH our grown up kids and the few people that love me for me.
But when I see family groups, laughing and supporting each other, there is not a jeaulousy, more of a total not understanding of a normal dynamic?
Normal families are just so alien to me, I dont know how it all works so easily!
When working on yourself, maybe start with boundaries, who is hard work etc. Its a long journey but you need to explore what you will and cant accept?
Sending lots of strength to you

I can relate to so much on this thread. I can't really offer any advice as I'm just at the start really.

I've only realised since having DS (now 3) just how dysfunctional our family is and it all comes from DM and her narcissistic behaviour. It was last autumn though when it really hit home the impact it has had on other areas of my life. After chatting to someone I used to date and learning on MN about attachment theory, I realised I was showing all the signs of fearful avoidant attachment and how this usually develops in childhood. I had a major penny drop moment. I couldn't believe how it was all interlinked and I have so many emotions but mostly hurt and anger.

Having my first counselling session tomorrow. I've had counselling before due to depression but it never really uncovered much of this. Just touched the surface regarding arguments with DM. But I do now have more focus on some of the deeper issues. One of the problems DM has is not resolving any of her old hurt and grief, and I don't want to follow the same pattern. So now counsellling has become my number one self care priority.

But when I see family groups, laughing and supporting each other, there is not a jeaulousy, more of a total not understanding of a normal dynamic?
Normal families are just so alien to me, I dont know how it all works so easily!

it's interesting you write this. I've known a few families in the past where I felt there affections towards each other were so OTT - life of hugging and I love you. I thought the reason our family did that was because we were more secure, we didn't need to su these things. But I now recognise we are a family that don't do these things because it's awkward and alien. It's so bizarre. In lockdown so many people saying how they just wanted to give their mum a big hug and how much they missed them. In someways this made lockdown easier for me because I was so rarely hugged, going months was normal. I'd say less than once a year and never remember being told by my parents they loved me.

I'm the opposite with DS. I probably smother him with too much affection!

Sorry typos - 'lots of hugging and I love yous'

'Reason our family didn't do that'

@Mintypylonsfryingsurplus This is it - I don't have to put up with her crap now, and have chosen not to. And I agree that I feel that I'm not very good at relationships. I don't really understand positive relationships and have got this impression that people must be too soft or stupid or a walk-over if they are nice and kind and caring and loving. I've always been baffled (and envious) by families who genuinely like, love and support each other - like you say, it just seems so strange and I do feel sad that I can't relate to it.

@TofinoSurf How was your therapy session? Being at the beginning of the realization is hard-going. It's great to have an explanation of some emotions, but at the same time, makes you fee that everything you've known is not what it appeared to be. We did have affection and hugs etc, and I initially used to say I had a great childhood. Then when I had therapy I realized I felt quite lonely despite having people around, because I felt like I always did something not quite right, or made a fuss or did something to be ashamed of. Really small stuff, but I guess it all adds up...

My Mum dropped me to Non Contact this time last year. She just couldn't cope with me holding different opinions to her. I'd been trying to be LC for years and it was actually a huge relief.

Even now a year later I'm enjoying the peace of not having to constantly reinforce boundaries and dealing with drama.

She emailed me recently with my birthday with basically a Happy birthday, I'd love to see you if you agree to do it with one of my friends present and you agree to therapy to get the bottom of why you're angry with me. I actually had to laugh rather than cry at that.

I do however find myself feeling sad about a lack if family in general. DM had fallen out with all of her family when I was little so I dont know or remember them. And DF disappeared when I was a baby and died when I was a teenager although i didnt find out til years later. Its left me feeling a bit adrift sometimes.

@CarelessSquid07A I see your DM put a lot of conditions on the contact. If you can do this, if you can do that . You best be a good girl now and comply..... I didn’t comply with my DM’s wish to be able to say and do what she likes and get away with it. And honestly I do feel free too.

I don’t blame you feeling adrift, looks like you didn’t have so many adults to rely on . I hope you have a lot of love around you now.

Thank you. I do have a wonderful DH and although his family have their struggles too they have been really welcoming.

Plus I have been lucky to build myself the most amazing group of friends. In some ways I am very lucky

My DM sounds similar. She is obsessed with herself - hair extensions, eyelashes, laminated eyebrows (whatever they are), Botox, surgery etc etc. She is not interested in her gc and during lockdown I don’t think she noticed not seeing them, as she doesn’t bother anyway. It is extra painful as dp has dc from his first marriage and his parents absolutely dote on them. It makes me aware of what my dc are missing.

@LAwonder I totally understand that feeling of not being able to relate to loving, close families. My therapist said that I’ve had to construct an idea of what the perfect family is in my mind from pictures and films.

I have a difficult relationship with my DM. She is highly critical, distant and everything is my fault. She was emotionally abusive when I was younger constantly telling me no one would want me, she wished she had us adopted, kids ruined her life etc she wouldn’t give us anything not even bus fare, no care for our wellbeing etc
I find her incredibly difficult and am upset that I will never have a relationship with her that I would want.
If I was in dire straits she might help me out financially.

I've had a terrible relationship with my Mother for most of my life. She is one of those Hyacinth Bouquet types and all that matters is what people think.

About 5 years ago she developed Alzheimer's, she's a little sweetheart now and I enjoy spending time with her, she can't remember who the people are she's supposed impress, she's 89 and probably hasn't got long left, but I'm glad we had this pleasant time.

How was your therapy session?

@LAwonder it was a great first session thank you. I was expecting to feel worse afterwards (I tried someone last year and did feel awful) but I had spent a lot of time thinking about things in the run up to the appointment that did make me feel worse so by the time I had the session I was just pleased to get some stuff off my chest. Relatively high level though, not gone too deep yet. Counsellor is really lovely and we seem to work well together. She's off next week though so got two weeks between appts but I think that's ok.

@CarelessSquid07A I’m glad to hear it. I have age-old pals and that brings its own complications (eg history, expectations) though I’ve recently made some new friends. I find it quite daunting though - they all seem so confident, and I feel self-concious despite being good at chit chat.

@WhoisRebecca that’s heartbreaking that your reference is totally fictional, though I do get it. I’m never sure of what is genuine and what is not.

@Lightline I can only assume your dm must’ve been very damaged herself to treat you that way... not that it’s an excuse. Are you in touch with her much now?

@Thisbastardcomputer how bittersweet, but it must feel lovely to have a different relationship now. I have had grandparents with Alzheimer’s so really feel for you and guess there’s a certain irony that your dm has “changed” for the better now.

@TofinoSurf great news! Hopefully you’ll feel keen to continue if you can build a nice rapport with your counsellor.

So the kids have been talking about DM and DSD after seeing them on Skype. I spoke to my sibling (who’s completely NC with DM) and I was saying how I feel unsure of if/how to prevent/encourage the DC to have contact or a relationship with DM. Even my sibling said perhaps you should let them speak to her if they ask (very very rarely this happens and usually when we’re out and about so bad timing, then they’ve forgotten later and I don’t remind them). I said “but she’s toxic” and my sibling said “with us yes, with the kids maybe not”.

It’s thrown me a bit as sibling is very anti-DM. And they seem to think her having a relationship with my DC wouldn’t be such a bad thing

I actually feel concerned about what dm would say and do to manipulate them against me. So I’m going with my instinct here and won’t be nurturing any kind of relationship they might have. I just hope they understand one day - she’s very very clever and lots of people think she’s fab/cool/great. How do I protect them without looking like I’m the manipulative one, turning them against her?

Your sister is not just merely anti DM, she is no contact with her herself and for good reason to boot.

Toxic parents more often than not turn out to be toxic as grandparents too.

Your mother was not a good parent to you or your sister when you were growing up and she has not changed fundamentally since that time. She has not changed. The very worst thing you can do for your children now is to keep on exposing them to your mother, she will use them as narcissistic supply and will use them also to get back at you as their mother. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their life are either discarded or are as abusive as they are, he is truly the willing enabler.

If the other set of grandparents are nice then concentrate your efforts on them.

A lot of people are fooled by narcissistic types but they are truly damaging to be at all around. Do keep your own self and your kids well away from her and your stepdad.

I do see this @AttilaTheMeerkat. The fact that I feel unsettled, uncomfortable and anxious at the thought of the DC being in her company is enough for me to know I can’t encourage anything between them.

But how do I manage that with the DC? My eldest in particular thinks she’s so much fun. They both can already sense that we are closer to other GPs and I’m concerned that as the kids get older and won’t understand why we don’t see/speak to her much when she’s so fun/lovely/interesting?

I’ve thought about mentioning that me and nanny don’t get on so well If it comes up in conversation but my eldest I’m sure would bring it up if/when we do speak to DM and also I’m terrified too of giving her the blueprint that she can expect that It’s normal for the mother-daughter relationship to breakdown. She pushes against me somewhat and I know that dm would use that against me if she could.

And what really pisses me off (sorry, ranting now) is this hold that dm has over me in my different roles - as a daughter and now as a mother myself.

I think you’ve described the issue yourself very well. Although you’ve put in place the first part of the process, recognising the your relationship is dysfunctional and holding her at arms length, you’ve not gone on to fully develop the second part, which is to make your own boundaries.

You’re still fearing her disapproval and not valuing your own self very highly yet. She won’t give you validation, but you deserve it.

You’re still in a dance with her, your children, the opinions of friends. You still have that hope that she will do something to repair the bond.

I really think you need to go back for more therapy if you can and look at finding yourself, focus on that now. Attila is right, if they’re too toxic for you they’re too toxic for your kids. It’s tempting to offer the children as a sort of peace keeping force, hoping that their youth and goodness will act as their protection and appease the parent. But it didn’t work when you were a child and it won’t work for them. Comments will be made (narcs can’t help it, it’s their oxygen), divisions will be encouraged. You will feel the pain when they meet and be less able to control events, as you no doubt tried to do before the LC began.

I’m in a similar position to you. Some days I feel very sad, somedays very angry. But I hold on to the fact that I didn’t cause this and I’m not responsible for my parents. I am responsible for myself. It’s not enough to stay away, you have to find the self-love and value that’s been missing all your life.