Anyone else have a poor relationship with their DM?

[LAwonder]

It’s complicated. She has narcissistic traits, probably because her own childhood wasn’t great. My childhood wasn’t awful, no abuse, but looking back I always felt upset. DM is very self absorbed, thinks she can say and do what she likes and no one is allowed to react. I pushed against that and now we’re NC.

I don’t really see any alternatives. She won’t change. So either I sacrifice my sanity and mental health or we stay how we are.

I wish I had a close loving relationship with her. I wish I could tell her all the little things about the DC, about me, about our life. I wish I could invite her in to share some of it with us. But honestly, keeping her at a distance feels like the healthiest thing for me.

I’ve been on stately homes threads on and off for years. I’ve had therapy. I understand FOG, I understand grieving for things you didn’t have abd overall I am now used to this situation, but once in a while I just feel a bit lost and a bit sad about it all that this might be it. I think the damage to our relationship is so concrete now, I’m not sure we could ever go back (and back to what anyway??).

It’s been 2 years of LC then NC. I never planned to write her off, I don’t want to write her off. And NC forever just seems shit. But the alternative feels futile too.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your narc parent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the narcissistic grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favour. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your children do not get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

I do hope you take heed of Fanthorpe's post here and I certainly concur with her point re more therapy.

You have to let all and any hope go here that she will either change or become a better person. This is really who she is. You do not need her approval either, not that she would ever give it to you anyway.

I hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread. I'm at a bit of a cross roads and don't know what to do.

Very long to explain but had a difficult/draining relationship with DM for a long time, particularly these last 5 years after the death of a family member. She insists we're close when really I don't feel that way. I feel like I have to be a certain way, put up with a lot to keep the peace. I can't call her out on something rationally, she's got a very warped view of reality and twists things.

We had an exchange on the phone last night and haven't spoken since. She won't call or text, it's all up to me. She's cut a lot of people out of her life and I know she'll be saying she's done with me. It's always 0-60 over very little. The narrative is that many many people have hurt her, she doesn't consider that she might be the problem.

I don't want to contact her, I want this to be it even though it will mean not seeing my dad who always just goes with whatever she decides. But I'm conflicted by my children. I don't know what I would say to them.

Sorry for the long post.

I have a poor relationship with my DM in the way we're not close and communication is normally her complaining about something or asking me for money. It's all very pleasant now (it wasn't when I lived at home) but it's a fake pleasant if you know what I mean.

I have a number of friends who are very close with their DM but my best friend has the exact same relationship as I do with mine so that makes me feel better. I think our mothers definitely have narcissistic traits and are very self absorbed... sadly I do feel myself having some of these traits now. I don't have children and part of my decision is because I do feel id be like my mum growing up. Maybe not as cold but I am extremely introverted and need my own space... my mother is extroverted but still us children were a constant nuisance to her.

@Fanthorpe I'm ok with the kids not having a relationship with her, I'm ok with me not having a relationship with her. It's "how" I manage that with my own DC that I'm concerned about. You're so right about the dance though - I slipped up and fell back into it, hence the Skype contact recently.

@AttilaTheMeerkat my decision is made - I don't want her to have any influence over them. My concern is more now about the kids' reaction. Will they be able to make sense of why they being kept away from someone who seems so fun? You're right in that they have a short memory, and I think that I already do focus on the "nice" GPs - we call them frequently, look at photos, talk about them waaaaaay more than we discuss DM. So I think by and large that in itself is setting the scene. It's just now they've seen DM again via Skype and she was funny and engaging, they've made comments about not seeing her much and it's been a long time etc etc. I know I'm protecting them from her and the damage she causes, but I'm worried about their reactions to this. Will they resent me as they get older? How can it be logical to them if what they see of her seems so great? I guess the answer is to not expose her to them at all. That is do-able now - we live far away, they are little enough to not have their own phones/email/social media... But can I police it that much as they get older? If they ask for nanny's number so they can send messages, what do I say? What happens when they are old enough to want to go and visit or stay with her? Do I have to minimize the relationship so much now that they never want to do that? It feels so contrived to do that.

If they come to the conclusion themselves that she's toxic, then fine. But it took me 30+ years to realise and the snippets of her that they do see, are carefully crafted to make her out to be amazing, so I can't see them ever reaching that on their own.

@Funnyface1 That all sounds very familiar. I'd "realized" about my mum gradually over about 5 years from when I was in my mid-20s. It was exacerbated when had children and that is when I discovered a lot of the narcisstic mother material online and it all fell into place. It helped me fantastically to understand her behaviours, the patterns, and also my own role in the interactions, the damage it had caused and how I could manage it. I was basically grey-rocking her for years and then 2 years ago she really showed her true colours and it was the straw that broke the camel's back. But like your DM, she is the victim, she's the injured party, she doesn't deserve this etc etc. As you can see from my posts, I'm in a pretty similar place. I hope you find the courage to put yourself first for a change. I hit rock bottom and had to, and since I've felt freer than ever - though clearly I still have some stuff to work through!!

@sociallydistained I feel very sad that your DM has put you off being a mother yourself. I am always worried about being like her - she was my template and honestly, sometimes I feel totally lost in how to parent because the only way I know is hers. I have a very stable DH who understands the dynamics with my DM and knows my fear of being like her and I try my best to do the opposite of what she would do...……. I hope my kids remember that stuff rather than the nagging to get shoes on/brush teeth/go to bed which I have to assume is normal parent/little kid stuff but I'm always doubting myself. Am I too harsh? Not harsh enough? Do they feel special or do they feel in my way? Do they feel that they can't quite get stuff right and that they should be ashamed of themselves for anything/nothing? Such a minefield and tbh when I had children I didn't realise how "damaged" I was, it was only after...

LAwonder

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

I can identify with lots of the comments and reflections on this thread. Having my own children really shifted my thinking about my mum.

The book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" is a good one.

I think you can talk to your kids quite honestly in a way they can understand. You can say that when you’re with her you don’t feel you can be yourself.

Tell them that while it’s important to get along with and be kind to people sometimes it’s more difficult to do that with some people than others and at the moment you’re not getting along with your mother. Teaching your children about boundaries and giving them agency is an incredible gift that your parents didn’t give you, they taught you that adaptation and prioritising they feelings of others was crucial, which is why you’re uncertain.

Your children may choose to have a relationship with her when they’re older but if you give them the right tools and self confidence it won’t last very long.

I have been NC with my M for the last 10 months or so BECAUSE of my children.

I'm a grown up and I can tolerate her if necessary, but I know she will do the same to my kids (already favours my eldest) and I won't allow it.

She was desperate for direct contact (my kids are too young yet) and I realised if I didn't go NC now then she would have direct contact details for my kids and could bypass me to get to them - and manipulate them.

So it had to be now, so I went NC.

I told the kids that grandma was mean to mummy and I was worried that she would start being mean to them. They were briefly upset but after that they moved on very quickly

She has a problem with my dh and her true feelings flair up every now and then. They did last night on the phone and that's why we left it badly.

I've realized that I'm completely trapped in the fear, obligation, guilt thing, it describes things perfectly.

I can't keep hearing her say horrible things about my dh. It's wearing me down and I can't keep it to myself anymore. Dh is the best thing that's ever happened to me and she's responsible for some of the unhappiest times of my life.

Omg I'm so glad I've found this thread! I've skim read and will have a proper read tomorrow. My mum and I have always had a fractious relationship. I'm an only child, which I think is hard (glad I have 2DC). When growing up, my mum was very quick to be angry with me and would demonstrate that verbally and with her hand, hitting me wherever she could reach. I lived in fear of her as I found her hard to predict. My DF is a good man but he didn't want to rock the boat.

I think she was emotionally abusive to me: extremely critical, would put me down and was also very critical of my appearance and would compare it unfavourably you hers when she was younger. There was one group of subjects I was vg at at school (and still use now) but even then, she seems to enjoy the reflected "glory" of it (it always impresses people, I just happen to be good at it. It's not science, I'm shit at that). But, she did and does really love me, I know this but at times I feel in an unhealthy way: she can't seem to understand that having kids is stressful, she takes on all my problems and will refer to how they cause her worry. She doesn't seem to get I'm middle aged!!
I've turned out ok. My DP is amazing and I'm super lucky and appreciative. My DCs are happy, settled and popular.
My question is this: is her behaviour narcissistic? She's the type of person who'll turn anything back to herself.
There's a problem at the moment: of my making really but an unfortunate scenario. She will only say how much it's affecting her, there's no mention of me even though I've been ill with it. Oh and she's the queen of passive aggression, with me and DC, usually food related; she claims not to know what PA means.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I would go NC if I could, but I couldn't deprive my DF of seeing his DGC.

Pollo

Your father has failed you abjectly as a parent by failing to protect you from your toxic mother. He has chosen too to stay with her for his own reasons, he gets what he wants out of the relationship.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships and your dad is really her enabler here, He is a weak man and someone who acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Whatever the reasons your mother is the ways she is you did not make her that way. It’s not your fault your parents are the ways they are. Neither were good parents to you when you were growing up and they are crap examples of grandparents to your children too. You would be wise going forward to stay well away from both of them. Reducing all further levels of contact to zero would be beneficial to you and your kids.

Yes, I don't have any relationship with the woman that gave birth to me.
I struggled for years to try harder so that she might show that she loved me.
She can't, it's not her fault. Her childhood was not an abusive one but her parents had an extremely close bond and I think that she was the little girl desperately trying to be noticed.
She was an only child, her mother had several miscarriages, one when she was in a car crash and the stillborn child was a boy. The other miscarriages were boys too.
She knew this from a very early age, her father always made it clear that he was bitterly disappointed that he didn't have a son.
She is very me, me and what about me. It's taken me many years but I understand why she behaves as she does.
With understanding comes forgiveness. I'm not angry with her anymore. I've grieved for the mother I didn't have,
She'll be 88 in August and so I'll probably never see her again.
I wonder every now and then if I should get back in touch especially with the way that life is now. I mentioned it to my son and his exact words were Don't even go there Mum.
My son and my DIL are in contact with her, I'll find out if anything happens to her. But right now, I'm glad that the torture is over and it wasn't my fault. She did her best, well I hope she did.
Sorry this screed is all about me. The only advice I could give you is accept that you cannot change her behaviour, you can only change your reaction to her.
I wish you the very best and hope that you can find some sort of peace.

Thanks Attila and I know you're right. I feel disloyal even posting on here but she prizes loyalty above all else, so that's probably ingrained in me! Hopefully I have a more realistic view really. My dad is actually my stepdad but i always considered him my dad. That doesn't exonerate him I know.

Another one here. My mother falls into the ignoring narcissist category - I don't have a single good memory of spending time with my mother as a child, she was extremely self absorbed. Someone mentioned Christmas earlier in the thread, well my db was alone (single dad) and had got into a bit of a state and she just left him to his own devices at Christmas and let him down re important childcare too.

I tried to reconcile with my mother after 5 years nc earlier in the year. I wrote to her first (very brief card) but she did not respond. Then I visited her with gc. It felt weird and surreal, I cried a lot and she hugged me when I left (she never hugged me as a child) but has made no attempt to contact me since. In some ways I regret crying in front of her but I'm only human. But I don't regret trying to reconcile because I can say I tried but I got my answer and in some ways it has helped me move forward. I do have an older female friend who sort of fills in the mother gap (but it is two way and I support her also). Looking back, I've always had a surrogate mother figure in my life. I too felt a lot of guilt re no contact in relation to her grand children (my dc) but as someone mentioned she was next to useless with me so why should I expect anything different. I doubt I will ever see my mother again and yes I do feel very sad but more for me now, for the mother daughter relationship I never had and never will have and quite often I feel this sense of deep seated loneliness. I try to break the pattern with my own dds, I'm not perfect by any means but I am conscious of not falling into the same patterns. Every day I try to be nice to myself, people kept telling me how hard I was on myself and I never listened, it has taken me until my mid forties to actually realise the validity of this message and being kind to myself doesn't come naturally. All this wasn't helped by the fact I had an abusive and critical father - perhaps like attracted like, they were compliant with each other in their poor parenting and neither of them were prepared to change anything. My mother is never in the wrong, it is never her fault, I can only imagine what she goes around telling people about me. And yes, she does have a favourite, this wasn't really evident until the no contact situation but perhaps it has been there all along and I just didn't see it.

What's the best way to deal with passive aggression? Not exactly like this but along the lines of, "oh well, if you're too busy" and therein also slightly playing the victim.

Take it at face value. Don’t respond to the emotion, don’t be manipulated. Think about what you want, I’m guessing it’s something you don’t want to do?

People who use passive aggressive ways of communicating or ‘only joking’ are not using direct ways of asking because they are afraid of not getting what they want, so they use manipulation.

They’re playing the victim because that’s exactly how they see themselves.

Thanks Fan. I'm a bit rubbish with my own situation. I was told throughout my childhood that I was over sensitive, so I don't always trust my judgement. I was factual back.

‘You’re Over-sensitive‘ = ‘I don’t want to you have any boundaries’

Listen to your gut, take a minute to think what you want to say, don’t rush to make the other person feel better, then say what you WANT to say.

Sorry for the silence, have been off MN for a few days and the recent contact with DM feels in the past. I have noticed this pattern that it will totally consume me for a few days if there's contact with her or DSD, or a family event looming where we would otherwise be expected to be there... And then I go back to a safer place of not thinking about her. It's become the norm now that she just isn't much of a feature in our lives. I think I see this as acceptance of the situation, or maybe it's some kind of compartmentalization or denial, not sure, but it's easier all round when I'm in not-thinking-about-dm-mode...

@AttilaTheMeerkat They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). This helps a lot to frame it like this, thank you.

@Fanthorpe your way of positioning that makes complete sense too, that's also really helped.

@PotatoPlant thanks for the book recommendation. I found a lot online and it all made sense. Reading an actual book about it all gives me a mental block. Somehow I'm super uncomfortable about paying to reconfirm the bad bits about my own mother. Silly, I know when I paid for counselling weekly to address the same topic!

@Ballet1992 It does seem that NC is the only way to put a complete safety barrier up eh? My recent contact with my DM made me feel vulnerable (hence my post) and that doesn't do me any favours.

@Funnyface1 my DH is lovely and DM has made some awful comments about him in the past and this is when things really started to hit home for me. Then I realized that actually she'd not been that nice about most of my friends either. She never directly disapproved but I she used to make little digs or comments about them and always had something to say, rather than just liking them because I liked them...

Oh @PolloDePrimavera that sounds like my DM too. Because I haven't lived the life she imagined for me, I get the sense that she's disappointed or disapproves (bit like I said above with DH and my friends). I've watched my dad and stepmum just love me and my sibling for who we are, not for what we've done or the choices we've made. It's genuinely unconditional. It's just not with DM.

@thisfucker I'm glad you found a positive way forward. I think it speaks volumes that you've forgiven her privately, for your own peace of mind, but not discussed it with her (I assume from your post) and that shows that forgiving her won't change who she is. My dm is damaged by her own parents too, so like you, I do have some understanding of why she is like she is. In fact I almost pity her, she would be so much happier if she didn't need constant adoration or attention and didn't destroy every relationship around her. I can't change her and I don't have to like her. Therapy has helped me realise this!

@Daphnesmate01 that must've taken a lot of emotional courage to try to make things better. I can see how it's helped you move forward though even if it confirmed what you didn't want it to. Interesting you say that about mother figures. I've often bonded well with older female colleagues and have found myself wondering what they would be like as mums. In fact my therapist felt like that too. I think this comes down to the universe giving what you need at certain points in your life :) My DM has told me that she's shown our text exchanges to her friends and that they all agree that I am cruel. It hurts that she would try to find people to side with her and elevate her position as victim rather than trying to fix the problem.

Fanthorpe's posts about PA behavior and boundaries articulate so much of what I've found confusing over the years.

Best wishes to you all, feel free to keep posting. I will not be here every day whilst I'm not thinking about DM stuff, but will pop back every now and again!

@LAwonder
Thank you and you are right, I didn't bother to discuss my forgiveness with her, she cannot and will not believe that she's ever been anything but a fabulous mother to me. I've spoken about her childhood to my son he said 'that explains a lot' We don't talk about her much, that sounds odd but we've worked out a way to communicate about her without going into any detail.
My DIL did say to me that she's very impressed by the way that I've never given him any details about our differences.
I just said, ok I take it that she does, there was a very telling silence and nothing more was said.
I had to find a way to live with what she's done and said to me over the 62 years that I've been on this earth. This phrase helped.
If you cannot let the anger and bitterness go, it's like drinking poison and expecting her to die
I took it to mean that all the rage, anger and bitterness in my head would have a very corrosive effect on me, it wouldn't bother her in the slightest.
So I worked hard and gradually managed to expunge all the rage I was carrying.
Wishing you the best.

@Thisfucker it sounds like you got to the end of the line and then worked out how this situation, warts an’all, would best suit YOU. Not easy to do if you’ve always had to put someone else’s feelings above your own. That must’ve taken a lot of emotional energy and I’m sure, sacrifice. When you say you worked hard to expunge the rage, can I ask how? Maybe that’s too private so apologies for prying. I see a lot of strength and independence from people with these kinds of DMs and I’m always inspired by how they find a way to push on and push through despite the emotional challenges, big and small, that they’ve been exposed to.

@LAwonder
It's ok, I'll try and answer. You're right again, I did get to the end of the line. I will answer you but it's late and it's quite a complicated story. I'll come back tomorrow, meanwhile I'll try and work out exactly how I managed to get rid of the overpowering rage I usually feel when I think of her.

Thank you LAWonder and yes, I should have an amazing job by now at the UN, have an immaculate home and be a size 8. 🙄. I've not actually done badly but never enough. Anyway, I'm about to email her to say I need a break after a prime example yesterday of her taking the hump with me after assuming something incorrectly and not actually bothering to check facts. Argh.

Pollo

I would think twice before writing to your mother because she could well turn that against you. What such people like she wants is a response, that to her is the reward. Would suggest you go radio silent on her instead.