Big Problem with neighbours - advice please

[LucyintheSky21]

Hi

I am not sure that this is the right place to post something about an issue with neighbours but I thought it might fall under ‘relationships’ in a way as it is regarding the relationship between us and our neighbours.
Just for a bit of background, we own our house and have lived here 15 years and the neighbour I am going to discuss only moved in just before Christmas. We have not had much to do with the neighbours, they are a couple the same sort of age as myself and DH and have one small child about 18 months old. We have two young primary age DC.
We have in recent months started to speak a little over the wall and say hello and they seemed pleasant. Most people on our street don’t really speak. Anyway, we are not the Waltons and yes out children can be noisy if they play in the garden but only like normal children. We don’t have parties or play loud music or anything like that. A few weeks ago the lady Nextdoor collared me over the wall to complain that the night before my children had kept her son awake or woke him up crying. I knew the night she meant and my child had a night tremor which she does suffer from when it’s warm etc and the screaming can be loud. I apologised and explained and she was ok about it. Since then I have noticed that she is always watching me out of the window and when I notice her watching she actually ducks down from the window. I know this might sound strange but I said to my DH a while ago that I had a funny feeling about her and can tell she’s a nosey neighbour as she makes comments sometimes to me. For example one night I was looking for our cat in the street and she must have seen me leave my gate to go and look and it was around 10pm and she pointed out to me that she was aware I was outside at that time, almost like I shouldn’t have been. I wasn’t shouting the cat.
Another time she complained to me about my neighbours on the other side because they had a bbq with friends during lockdown and she was fuming about that.
Anyway, we are about to have some work done end of this week on our roof so at 7am this morning my scaffolding came. I wasn’t told what time it would arrive, I was only told it would be Wednesday or Thursday. Anyway this afternoon she collared me in the garden over the wall and was guns blazing that the men who bought the scaffolding woke her up and her child. It is not my fault as I had no idea what time. She wouldn’t accept it. She then said that if my children play in the garden on an evening that they have to be inside by 7pm as that’s when she puts her son to bed and she does not want any noise. My children are just normal children and don’t go to bed really late by can play out until 8pm now. She was quite nasty with how she spoke to me and said she fell out with her last neighbours and she had to move and that she won’t put up with it but I’m confused about what she’s complaining about and I feel like she’s going to be complaining every time I cough in the garden. It became semi- heated this afternoon as I felt she was telling me what to do and what she is complaining about is ridiculous. It is as if she thinks she is lady muck and everyone around her must do as she says. What she is complaining about is noise from normal living. She has a dog and doesn’t clean up the mess and it stinks but I don’t say anything. I am worried about her as I think she has an unhealthy interest in us and watches us and I feel it’s going to be compliant after complaint. Can anyone help or advise on what I can do about this before it gets out of hand?

Many thanks

Whatever height your wall is you need to make it taller somehow then she cannot talk to you over it

Live your life, so what if she keeps some sort of weird stalker diary about your movements. This is normal every day noise, if she doesn't like it she needs to find a place in the middle of nowhere.

Yes, it is annoying when you have a sleeping child and something could or does wake them. My Mum used to hoover under our cots so we would get used to noise and sleep through it. How will she cope on bonfire night?

I'm on your side apart from the children playing in the garden until 8pm.

Odfod
They are children. If people don't like noise at 8pm they should move somewhere where there are no children

I do have a tiny bit of sympathy for her with the scaffolding, but it was a one off and not much could be done about it. You aren't allowed to do any building work around here until 8am, but the council wouldn't bother themselves over two occasions - it is only if it was going on for weeks. I also personally would want to know when tradesmen were coming as I wouldn't be up and dressed at 7am if I was home.

Everything else is ridiculous and she sounds like hard work. Best to smile and nod really. I will say though that it does depend how noisy your children are actually being. There was a huge row here the other day as someone had their children out playing at 8pm, which was fine but they were shrieking and screaming, which was not. I found it really noisy and irritating and I don't have children. Several neighbours opened their windows and started shouting for the kids to shut up. But that is a different situation and expecting everyone to be silent so your kids can sleep is unreasonable.

Tell her to come back when her child is old enough to play outside and make a bit of noise, she attitude might grow up.

You can’t reason with this so you have to be clear ‘no, that’s not a reasonable request’ ‘these are usual family noises’ ‘I’m not willing to discuss this further’ ‘this is all I have to say’ and then ignore her. Do not give her your mobile number - people will text are manner of shit but it’s a higher bar if they have to knock on the door and talk to you.

Having dealt with issues like this in the past (I work for the local authority dealing with noise issues), I would guess your neighbour has either had really bad neighbours in the past and is therefore on edge and some what fixated on any potential issues where she is now or just has an extremely low tolerance of any noise that occurs.

It sounds to me like she is complaining about what I would class as general household noise. Unfortunately if she lives in a semi detached house and an area which is mainly families you will get noise from children playing, people moving around the house, doing DIY etc.

To be classed as a noise nuisance noise has to be unreasonable, frequently occurring and intrusive.

There are no laws staying what time someone can so DIY or have works done in their home but we generally suggest 8am -7/8pm during the week is reasonably. Work doesn't go on forever and we do remind people of that. Some people deal better with knowing times of work and how long it goes on for, it can sometimes make them feel better if they know.

My advice would be to keep contact with your neighbour limited. If she persists in shouting over the wall or complaining I would tell her that you aren't making any unreasonable noise and if she is unhappy to seek some advice from the local authority. If she called me up and explained children playing and a neighbour moving tools I would explain it wasn't unreasonable and not a nuisance.

If you wanted to you could always put a note through the door stating when the work was starting and how long it will take.

My OH rule of thumb at work is to let people get their complaint out of their system and they often feel like they have tackled a situation. However, we also lived ND to similar charmers for 5 years so I know how you feel. They calmed down after a few initial outbursts, but because we just got on with our lives and behaved reasonably, other neighbours soon realised we were just normal .
I think any active primary school child will appear big and rowdy to some parents of a first baby, but that is not your problem.
She's being ridiculous. The height of mid-summer is one of the very few times that your children will want to be out in the garden that late when its hot and we always regarded that as a high annual treat which they enjoyed. A one off of a builder arriving at 7 am when the sun is rising and its daylight at 5.00 am is hardly the end of the world.

Its also creepy that she's watching you. I know that can feel quite intimidating. as pps suggested Always Smile and Wave!! I think you are worrying about her too much and that is allowing her to get into your head. You KNOW you are not behaving badly or unreasonably and therefore she is just looking for things to complain about. Shes already said she can't get on with neighbours.
There's been some very good advice on this thread @WhatAWonderfulDay had some very good advice about this "A quick breezy shut down of the conversation." Demonstrating that you won't be pushed around and that she's not getting to you but not escalating anything. Keep an email note. and one about the dog poo.
The other pps suggestions of Trellis, maybe creating an outside seating area further away from the house so that you don't feel constrained having a drink in the garden. or where the kids can play further from the house, would probably all be good moves.
Keep an email note. and one about the dog poo.
You sound like a reasonable person and your parenting is none of her business so you don't have to apologise for it and you have the right to use your garden.
You've thought out a plan for managing her, so now you can just ignore as much as possible and dont let her rule your life. She doesn't seem to know what she wants anyway some of her complaints would be impossible to rationally address. which makes me think that perhaps she's having some kind of PND and finding it all too much and this is what's causing her noise paranoia. If you think that's what it is, you could try to take the completely alternative approach of "You do seem very stressed, I can't believe that's entirely our fault. Would you like a cup of tea and a chat and maybe find some online baby sleep advice. ? but only you will know if that is likely to work. Best of luck x

I don't understand the issue with the scaffolding - yes it's a bit irritating if you were sleeping but anyone reasonable would realise it's a one off and then especially after you explained you didn't know it was coming that early - why not just let it go? No wonder some people are so miserable if they hang on to every little thing.

We have neighbours who have a big American Muscle car - about 4 times in the summer they get it out of their garage to go somewhere and it revs really loudly for about 5 minutes. It annoys the shit out of me for those 5 minutes but then its gone. I wouldn't dream of complaining to them.

i would keep a record of everything in case her behaviour escalates, but certainly don't bow down to her demands. If she doesn't like it there then she can move when her tenancy ends.

There is something in the tenancy agreement about not causing a problem to your neighbours, so she could be given notice by the Landlord if she were to start harassing you.

Practice these ripostes at your leisure so that you are comfortable & fluent when approached by Ghastly Neighbour (GN).

‘Don’t be daft’
‘You having a laugh?’
‘ No’
‘Which bit of no is not clear’
‘Your shit stinks, clean it up’
‘You cannot be serious’ McEnroe style, enhanced by lobbing an object to the ground (non-lethal force advised).

Other ripostes are available.

There is something in the tenancy agreement about not causing a problem to your neighbours, so she could be given notice by the Landlord if she were to start harassing you.

Potentially, but the evidence threshold would be very high and the Landlord would be under no obligation to give this notice. That’s important to understand.

She's being very confrontational and you will soon start questioning your every action if you let these complaints of her get to you.
Plus she's probably in for a shock as roofers will want to work early hours so as to get a good bit of work done by around 2/3 so they can finish early for the day in this heat. We had roofers in recently, they started at 7 and finished around 2:30 every day as it was just too hot

You’ve certainly given her a precedent for ‘collaring you’ as soon as you step foot outside. Don’t start fearing it, address it. Go about your business, and when she ‘collars you’ don’t engage. Look distracted and vague, or start typing on your phone or begin a physical job in your garden. Have a look on your face that is exasperated, distracted and a bit annoyed. Don’t participate in whatever she’s telling you. Furrow your brow and say ‘ I’m a bit busy now’, then meander away.

Do it a few times. To balance out the times you’ve stopped everything to politely listen to her nonsense. Set a new precedent.

Your garden is still your private property. If she stuck her head in your bathroom window, would you let her babble on or be a bit more assertive?

I’ve also successfully used this phrase when dealing with nutty neighbours (of which I’ve had more than my fair share). I trot it out at the first sign of unreasonable requests:

‘Look, it’d be a boring old world if we all lived exactly the same way. I’ve found it’s best to assume that we do things that no doubt annoy you, but they are balanced by the things you guys do that I find annoying. Best to just live together as peacefully as possible, or if that’s impossible, move on. Either way no need for endless conversations about it. Each to their own.’

Even I’m surprised how often it works. They get the message that I’m not going to care about every tiny complaint they come up with, and reminds them that they aren’t perfect (yes, you, with the cloud of pot wafting over the fence line).

I’d just reply that it’s a housing estate and everyone had to live, so you’ve all got to expect a little noise here and there. Say you always try to be respectful but you’re not going to plan your lives around her baby’s sleep pattern! And if you saw her nosing just wave and shout “hello again Sandra”.

And get your bloody washing out! I can understand a grumble about scaffolding being delivered early hours, but nobody in their right mind could complain about washing unless you were deliberately slamming doors and shouting.

Next time she mentions her baby’s sleep say “you’re going to have to do some noise training with this baby’s sleep. It’s getting a bit ridiculous all these demands. We’ve all had to learn about bringing kids up!”

You need to give yourself a really stern talking to OP, please don't fall into the habit of giving her complaints any credence, she's nothing but a whinger. The only way to deal with her is to make it clear from the outset you won't be entertaining her nonsense, otherwise it sets the precedent that her complaints get her somewhere.

I speak from experience, my DM has been living on eggshells for years for fear of upsetting her whinger next door and it drives me mad the ridiculous things she feels she has to do/not do to avoid upsetting her neighbour. Please don't make the same mistake, PP's 'don't be so ridiculous' suggestions for your response are spot on and exactly what you should do. Don't give her headspace, you have a right to live your life too

She's being a nuisance neighbour. Contact the council for advice and start logging events.

‘ Odfod
They are children. If people don't like noise at 8pm they should move somewhere where there are no children’

Yes they are. They’re primary school children (key stage 1)
That scream and shout outside until after 9pm every night, then make a racket in the house until after 11pm every night.

I have children, I don’t let them play out beyond 7 because I’m aware other people have small children and it’s considerate to lower the noise levels when people cannot shut their windows.

Just because you live somewhere where there’s children, it doesn’t give you any right to be inconsiderate about anyone else.

When you’ve had a hard day with your kids the last thing you want to do is listen to other people’s when your own are in bed.

I haven’t complained about it, but it does piss me off.

It is unfair of a neighbour to demand ops kids be inside and they’ve no right to do that what so ever but if op wants her kids outside and she knows they’re loud enough to disturb a child, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just ensure your kids are quieter? Or take them inside?

If kids were outside being quiet I wouldn’t care but often outside they’re running around hyperactive shouting and screaming.

Thank you to everyone who has helped on here, there are some amazing responses and I feel brighter having just read those. It ha made me feel panicky about how loud we are inside the house and out. For the record, my kids are just very normal kids, if they do play out in the garden after tea it is not that they are allowed to scream and shout and I don’t let them stay out until late at all. We are respectful or neighbours and always have been. I have never had any issues with anyone else in the street the whole time I have lived here.
The neighbour ‘Jane’ did start off being friendly over the wall the first few time’s she spoke to me. However the first time she spoke to me was to complain about workmen in the street who were replacing mains gas pipes in all the properties. She told me over the wall that she had contacted Northern Gas to complain about the noise and the mess and demanded that they jet wash her path after doing the work.
After that, she spoke to me to complain about my neighbours on the other side. The other neighbours keep themselves to themselves but she wasn’t happy that get had another couple over for a bbq during lockdown as it wasn’t allowed. Even though it wasn’t allowed, I keep put of other people’s business and wouldn’t have reported them but ‘Jane’ rang the police and they went round to my other neighbours to speak to them about the bbq and socialising. So you can see the bigger picture. I just can’t understand why she wants to complain and report people for what I think are petty things. Surely we all want an easy life. The watching that she does of us is very obvious and it is un-nerving. I’m watched putting washing out, I’m watched bringing the kids in. My dad is here this afternoon in the garden helping DH with a job and she’s been in her garden peering over the wall to see what they are doing. It’s driving me crazy being watched and I really feel it is an unhealthy interest in her neighbours.
I have as people have suggested made a note on paper of dates she has collared me and complained and details of what she has complained about. I have tried to be reasonable and did apologise for the scaffolding even though I didn’t know what time they were coming. I apologised and I told her I didn’t know what time they were coming. I think she likes her child to go up to bed at 7am so that she can enjoy a drink, she’s said before and that’s fair enough but I shouldn’t have to adapt my lifestyle to suit hers. I have told her also yesterday that I will tell the children to be quieter when outside but they are kids and it might well be in one ear and out of the other. Sadly they rent from a private landlord and I believe that the landlord is cousins/related to her DH. I have never heard her DH speak and he seems very quiet. Thank you again for all the advice.

@LucyintheSky21 from your latest comment your neighbour sounds like Hyacinth Bucket/Bouquet 😬 x

In that case I wouldn't try too hard to please her, be civil and don't be too disruptive obviously but hopefully if she doesn't get the peace she wants she might move on at some point.

If you notice her peering over the wall to have a nose just wave cheerily and say, "lovely weather today!" Then accidentally spray the hose on her while watering the plants!

Start keeping a diary of every time she collars you and is demanding or rude. If it's happening often it's harassment, plain and simple.

Did you say she is renting? If it gets heated you are well within your rights to speak to the landlord/letting agents and let them know you are having problems. They will be aware that previous tenants never complained about you so will have an idea that what you are saying is true.

Don't stop living as you wish to. She clearly expects everyone to do what she wants and if you bow down to her in any way she might get even more demanding and entitled.

Bless you. It's horrible when confrontation like this makes you feel uncomfortable in your own home. I've caught our neighbours watching us a few times, it's really unsettling.x.