I think DD(18) might have EUPD (BPD). How do I help her?

[copingwitheupd]

Dd has always been very emotional, and can turn from lovely to violently angry in a second. One minute she is friendly and the next she is horribly abusive. She lies about everything and shows no remorse for how she behaves. She is very sensitive and we have to make huge allowances for her in normal everyday things. She uses screens as a way of hiding from the world, and from things she has to do and is a massive procrastinator. She is very academic, and comes across as shy and sweet in public and no one can believe she treats us the way she does. It was a real struggle to get her to school through the sixth form, and she lied a lot to her teachers about her work. She was diagnosed with a mild sleep disorder, and for a long time I thought she would be better if she just got a good night's sleep, but now I think it is worse than that.

I know she has self-harmed and had suicidal thoughts but she won't talk about why, and she refused to keep going to the counsellor we found for her. She did go to the Gp off her own bat, but they just recommended Steps to Well-being and she won't pursue that. She is extremely closed about her feelings, and refuses to talk about her outbursts except to blame everybody else. I think she has soured every family holiday we have ever had.

Lockdown was not going too badly but a couple of weeks ago she flipped for no reason we could see and started attacking her brothers physically, throwing things and breaking plates. She is refusing to have anything to do them or even to eat with us as a family, although she will act fairly normally when they are not around. I thought she had calmed down but then yesterday she tipped a plate of food over her brother just for walking into the kitchen where she was to get a snack. She says she wants them to die, and threatens to hurt them. I feel sick at the thought of the damage growing up with her has done to them, and sick at the thought that she might hurt herself because I love her so much.

Over the years I have googled everything from anxiety to autism to sociopathy but nothing quite fit. Now I'm pretty sure she has EUPD as she fits about 90% of the criteria but I have no idea how to get her help because she won't even entertain the idea of talking to a doctor or counsellor. DH wants to set down some clear boundaries (if she doesn't sit down with to eat she'll have to cook her own food, if she is violent again she will have to leave the house) but I think tough love has never worked with her before so it won't work now. I'm also really hesitant to suggest she has EUPD because I think she will twist that and turn what we say against us.

We are basically looking forward to her going to university in the autumn so we can live a life not tiptoeing on eggshells. It feels horrible to say it but I cannot wait for her to leave. And then I worry that she will crash and burn at university and hurt herself or worse. Or that she will have to come home and I'm not sure I can cope any more with her living in the house permanently (I can just about cope with holidays, I think.)

Does anyone have any recommendations of books to read about how to help her, and manage our family life? Or websites? If you have EUPD did you accept a diagnosis or were you in denial for a long time? What is the best way to stop her being so horrible to us whilst loving her and looking after her?

Tl;dr: I'd love any advice from anyone with experience for DD who I'm pretty sure has EUPD.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this OP.

I grew up in a house with an older sibling who was bi-polar - with rapid cycles of anger, violence and never knowing what to expect. It was horrendous and has affected my whole life.

You need to stop tip-toeing around her and allowing her behaviour to overrule everyone else’s happiness and safety. Simply - if she wants to stay under the roof, she MUST seek help and she MUST stop attacking all members of the household.

Right now, you’re just enabling her to treat you all like 💩 with no repercussions.

I can see the harm she is doing. But it's the middle of a pandemic. I don't know where she could go.

How horrible for all of you. My understanding is that Psychs will generally not diagnose EUPD in adolescence ... a lot can change in the late teens/early twenties.
If you google you will find various support forums for families of EUPD people. Although there are no easy answers there is a lot of helpful stuff on where you draw the line between being supportive or enabling. And it may help to know that you are not alone and you will likely find understanding of the mixed emotions swirling around.
The US forums are also very active and loads of resources.
There is also a book called ‘Walking on egg shells’ which might be of interest.
Best of luck. Keep your chin up - whatever is going on, the hormonal storms of adolescence will likely be exaggerating it and things may well improve in time to some extent.
You sound like a lovely caring Mum, well done.

She needs a proper assessment. If she won't go for help there's nothing you can do except encourage her to do so. Eventually she will probably seek help if she's not happy and struggling.

She will probably struggle at uni so prepare for phone calls, maybe dropping out and back in etc. But at least you'll get a bit of breathing space. She may get the help she needs at uni- student support services, counselling etc.

if she is violent again she will have to leave the house) but I think tough love has never worked with her before so it won't work now.

If she's made to leave the house if she's violent again, I think that's a reasonable red line to have, especially if it's effecting your other children. You can support her without letting her stomp on you all, be violent and nasty etc.

If she's nasty/violent at some point, I suppose you could say 'you need to seek help or move out.'

I'm also really hesitant to suggest she has EUPD because I think she will twist that and turn what we say against us.

Yes, I wouldn't say it unless you have a good relationship with her (it doesn't sound like your relationship is quite in the right place at the moment for you to say it.) Professionals will say it if it needs to be said, or you can suggest it to them privately without her if you're ever in a position to do so.

It's all in how people say it. I had a bitch (pardon my french) consultant try and say I had it. She was very nasty in how she put it. I virtually had PTSD as a result of how she talked to me. I had to change consulting teams. The new team have been fine. I was already thinking that I was acting a bit like someone with BPD- if she'd expressed it in a non judgmental and reasonable way rather than nastily, I would've accepted it.

I wouldn't accept it as (which my current consultant agrees- the bitch consultant was a locum I only saw twice anyway) I only have traits of it rather than the whole thing. After about 6 months I got my head round it and sought additional therapy, treatment etc. I was diagnosed with ADHD, which can have the same effect of difficulties in regulating mood etc. People can have ADHD and still be academic. I did well at uni but kept dropping in and out. I also have always had difficulties with sleep, and motivation. ADHD doesn't always make the person seem hyperactive.

I got DBT (which didn't work for me) and EMDR therapy (which I love.)

BPD traits are due to trauma, a lot of people diagnosed with it actually have PTSD. The trauma can be all sorts of things.

And then I worry that she will crash and burn at university and hurt herself or worse. Or that she will have to come home and I'm not sure I can cope any more with her living in the house permanently (I can just about cope with holidays, I think.)

Sometimes young people etc have to 'sink' a little before they can swim, in order to get the help they need from services, medication etc. If she struggles she will come to the attention of services that will help her, or seek help herself.

What is the best way to stop her being so horrible to us whilst loving her and looking after her?

I would say to her it's not ok to treat any of you like this. There's nothing wrong in you saying that. If she says she's struggling, depressed etc, or self harms, all of these are the times where you can say 'Your GP can help you.' 'All I can do is support you but I'm not a professional, you need to see your GP' etc.

Hope this helps. xxx

You only have to last until the Autumn and hopefully sooner or later she'll be off to uni.

Estate agents are operating again now if it comes to it, or she could probably find a room in a shared house.

I was desperate to leave home and made a fuss to the extent my mum let me leave for the city I was going to uni at a month or so early. I think she must've paid my rent until my loan and grant came through, and she gave me an allowance of £25 a week :) That went further in 1996 though and it wasn't difficult to live on- I didn't eat much anyway as eating disorder symptoms were part of what was wrong with me.

If you threw her out she could also go to the council and they will provide help with housing of one kind or another- if nothing else then a list of landlords.

@MrsRenard I think they would diagnose it at 18 at least, if someone's issues with mood didn't respond to medication.

The sooner people are treated for a mental health problem the less impact it has long term.

Personality Disorders are easier to treat early on, as the longer people carry on like it the more it becomes ingrained.

Reading that and thinking that was exactly like me. I made my parents and siblings life unbearable for a number of years and my mum would regularly describe it as "walking on eggshells". Anything could set me off and I too would often attack.

I went homeless at 16 years old and have not lived with my parents since then. I am now 28 and it is like night and day, although I wasn't officially diagnosed I can say without a doubt I have BPD but throughout the years I've managed to develop coping skills to deal with the signs in a more healthy way.

I have an AMAZING relationship with my mum now, we are very close and we both say that in a way we are glad we went through such a rough time together as it's taught us we can get through a lot. Hopefully as your daughter gets older and maybe gets a little space from the family home she will mature and learn to deal with her negative emotions and temper a little better.

Also, my siblings turned out great and they witnessed loads that they shouldn't have - doesn't make it right and everyone is different but all hope is not lost.

All you can do is encourage her to see a doctor about it, also I know it can be difficult as she is treating you nicely at all, but please remember she won't be feeling good about herself and her behaviour either. She will be confused and frustrated that she is somehow different and can't deal with things the same way everyone else does, whether she shows you that or not.

Could you just take her a cup of tea tonight into her bedroom and sit and have a chat with her? Just the two of you, calmly? I know easier said than done.

I wish you both luck and really feel for your daughter as I know what she is going through.

BPD almost always gets better with age. Glad you're doing better @introorextro . xxx

Umm...I wouldn't be paying for her to go to uni. Not unless you intend to buy her a flat or rent one for her alone.

Otherwise she will cause shit for anyone else she stays with.

I lived with someone like this in second year (I suspect more of a malignant narcissist but they share similar traits to bpd) and it isnt an exaggeration to say it nearly destroyed me.

I feel sorry for your plight but ...would be pretty pissed with you knowing that you know your kid is like this - and you are cool with enabling her to stay with other, innocent people. Who believe me, she will target.

She is 18 now so I'm not sure how much you can do without her approval. But you do have responsibility not to make it possible for her to harm others. And I know you care about her future but she isnt well so uni probably wouldn't be do able anyway.

Sorry if that came across as a bit harsh but, she is not other peoples responsibility and it isnt right to put others at risk because of her behaviour. Not if you can help it.

Suggest deferring uni for a year. And that you will only pay for anything towards it IF she agrees to get proper treatment for whatever is going on with her.

Has she had an ADD assessment? There's emerging research looking at missed ADD in girls ending up with a BPD label

It's a slight aside but I would suggest she takes the vitamins and minerals to help severe PMT - PMDD.

The ideal treatment is natural oestrogen which is different to what is in the pill etc which is all synthetic.

Vitamin and minerals:
Vitamin B6 50mg
Magnesium 250g
Taurine 500mg

These are highly likely to help regulate her mood which will hopefully make her mood swings less extreme/intense they are also likely to improve her sleep.

Beyond that she needs to want help

The feelings she experiences could well be more intense than anything you have ever felt. It is very horrid condition to live with.

I totally understand you are desperate for a break from her behaviour but her going to uni doesnt sound like a great solution. She is not going to find that easy . If I had a child leaving for university this year I would be extremely concerned if she ended up sharing a flat with your child. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it's really not fair to enable her to go and for her to potentially mess up others lives. She needs a diagnosis .

You could have been describing my DD. Except for the self harming and suicidal thoughts. Although I am not 100% sure that is accurate.

Our life was hell. But her inner world was worse. I don’t know how our neighbours stood the screaming and her siblings have suffered.

She was “perfectly behaved” at school.....ie didn’t speak. Had v few friends and she was v submissive.

Holidays were the worst....her behaviour was so erratic and dangerous that we stopped taking her for a few years and it also gave the other children some respite. She went on holidays instead with my sisters and her cousins - perfect behaviour.

I googled everything - was convinced she had pathological demand avoidance (a form of autism), she saw private therapists, she was assessed by CAHMS - “all clear”.

She has a significant SEN which is now easier for her to manage.

She has always been aware that she “is different”.

Tough love didn’t work for us - it exacerbated it.

Compassion did though.

Looking beyond her “acting out” bad behaviours and assuming these were instead deeply painful uncontrollable emotions that needed articulating, attuning to and soothing - then helping her do this for herself.

Like working gently with a toddler. Giving her all my focus - I gave up work for a year to be home for her.

Not seeing her behaviours as demanding, attention seeking - but attention needing - and giving it.

She was not as emotionally resilient as other DCs (google the orchid and dandelion theory). She needed a much more finely tuned and sensitive environment. I believe it was a mix of nature and nurture. There were v clear signs at 9 months old on reflection. Our large, busy, extrovert, aspirational family with high expectations and both parents working v challenging careers with a series of nannies didn’t work for her (my other dandelion DCs were “fine”?). We also had significant issues in our marriage which added to the stress in the home.

So it all had to change. We had to re-parent her. Proactively putting in emotional support, building her resilience by planning in validating attention and connection.

She transformed by 17. She is now a wonderful young woman. Calm and respectful. More socially able - although still very emotionally “young”. She has recently come out and is in a very happy and equal same sex relationship. She is 18 and going to university in September. I never thought I would see the day.

My reflection is not to label or pathologise too early - but look much closer to home, adapt your own behaviours and environment first if needed. Get professional support for you and your DH to proactively build her resilience and manage your responses to her behaviour. Maybe she needs something a bit different.

This link is an interesting read.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/personality-disorders/why-is-it-controversial/

I am sorry you are living this. It is hell.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts. I'm going to read them all again slowly, and come back in the morning. I really appreciate your compassionate responses, especially as today I have felt quite desperate.

Just on the thing about it being difficult for who she lives with at uni - I wouldn't let her go if I thought she would behave to other people as she does to us. She has some good friendships, and as far as I know none of them would ever guess she was like this at home. Even our family and closest friends have never seen her behave as anything other than a sweet polite teenager. As well as which, her accommodation at uni for all three years would be in a separate room in a hall, not in a shared house or flat. We won't be paying for university so don't really have any control over whether she goes or not from that point of view.

RandomMess That's interesting about severe PMT. She has been on the pill for a few months because of hideous period pain but I haven't noticed any difference in mood. I'll look into the vitamins though because it can't hurt and I am keen to try anything that might help.

Oh, and the thing about trauma is what really worries me. Does anyone know if you can have EUPD without early trauma. We genuinely can't think of anything that might have happened to her. We are happily married, our other kids are all pretty steady. I can point to lots of things that I would have done differently in retrospect but nothing that feels neglectful or abusive when I look back on it. It makes me feel sick to think she was hurt in some way and we didn't know. A friend said to me that she has always been a troubled little girl, and that feels true even from when she was a toddler.

Umm...I wouldn't be paying for her to go to uni.

@Bunnymumy I get what you mean in a way, but saying OP shouldn't help her go to uni or share is a bit mean. Not everyone with BPD could do well along as they get lonely. In fact, one treatment for it is a therapeutic community where they mix with people (I know this isn't the same as a shared house at uni, but still, social interaction isn't necessarily bad for them.)

I had a friend with BPD who was bloody awful, tried to fuck up my relationship etc, but I like to think I'm not that bad. BPD encompasses a wide range of people. Most of them have some good things to offer their friends.

And someone can be bloody awful with family (because they think they can get away with it, or for other reasons) and not as bad with others.

I feel sorry for your plight but ...would be pretty pissed with you knowing that you know your kid is like this - and you are cool with enabling her to stay with other, innocent people. Who believe me, she will target.

I get what you mean, but this is nasty. She's as entitled to have a life, go to uni, mingle as anyone else. There are all sorts of bloody awful people in this world and they have lives.

OPs daughter deserves a chance.

@copingwitheupd How does she get on with friends etc? You said she's quiet/shy so presumably she's shy and sweet in public so I expect it'll be fairly ok. Does she argue with/fall out with people much?

she is not other peoples responsibility and it isnt right to put others at risk because of her behaviour.

As far as we know she isn't much of a risk to anyone else, 'just' bloody awful to family at times.

Your idea of saying she must get some treatment before she goes to uni is a good one, though.

Has she had an ADD assessment? There's emerging research looking at missed ADD in girls ending up with a BPD label

@time4anothername Yep, it happened to me a bit. I also thought that with the sleep issues OP describes. It's not an either/or though, children with ADHD or autism can end up with BPD/trauma because of whatever they experience as a result of their ADHD- for me it was bullying etc.

If I had a child leaving for university this year I would be extremely concerned if she ended up sharing a flat with your child.

@brownpurse OP says she's fairly OK in public/with other people.

Not seeing her behaviours as demanding, attention seeking - but attention needing - and giving it.

@Gutterton That is a good point and your approach sounds good. But I think if she's nasty/violent at home OP has a right to say that is not ok.

If she has BPD there is a reason why. That might be unpleasant to think, but there is. What matters is how that is addressed.

I think some people are just more inclined to develop a personality disorder than others. Sometimes outside stimuli can bring it about, sometimes it just develops naturally.
The stunting happens early anyway, like when they are very young.And when you think about it, there are loads of things that can be scary and traumatic for a young 2/3 year old that we probably wouldn't even think of.

Does anyone know if you can have EUPD without early trauma. We genuinely can't think of anything that might have happened to her. We are happily married, our other kids are all pretty steady. I can point to lots of things that I would have done differently in retrospect but nothing that feels neglectful or abusive when I look back on it. It makes me feel sick to think she was hurt in some way and we didn't know. A friend said to me that she has always been a troubled little girl, and that feels true even from when she was a toddler.

EUPD is a result of trauma. But as @Gutterton says, all children are different, dandelions and whatsits, so what doesn't effect one child might effect another. Some people are born more sensitive.

And things do happen that parents don't know about. What does she say about the causes of her issues? Or does she just say you're all to blame? My friend had some abuse from a relative which she never told her parents about, and hardly anyone else. I had bullying with lack of emotional support at home, and my father's moods were very volatile so we had to walk on eggshells.

As a PP said, I would get her assessed for ADHD/Autism too if you think anything about that resonates and she's open to it. That assessment might lead to her being diagnosed with BPD, anyway. No-one would've dreamt I had ADHD/Autism as a child - everyone presents differently but it's worth looking into.

A friend said to me that she has always been a troubled little girl, and that feels true even from when she was a toddler.

It’s interesting that others spotted this - but that might just be easy with hindsight? We often think that “this is just a phase”, “this too shall pass”, etc - it’s when it doesn’t that we need to notice but it’s we can get caught up in it like boiling the frog, as we keep adapting.

Trauma doesn’t have to be a a single event. I think that if a child is orchid/highly sensitive by nature - then living in a “normal” rough and tumble environment might be v uncomfortable and stressful / traumatic?

If you want to look at lifestyle advice for each of BPD / EUPD / ADD / Autism etc - there are many overlaps and you could look at building these in.

Some really ignorant comments about those diagnosed with eupd on this thread. Armchair diagnosis of mental health issues helps no one, much better to seek out the advice of your GP. A personality disorder is not something that can be diagnosed in one appointment or even two...

PurpleFrames that’s why I posted the link - because “diagnosis and labelling” is a huge debate - in summary it says:

“Mind is committed to ensuring that voices on all sides of this debate are heard. This includes those who:

*understand their experiences and behaviours as a disorder

*think of them as a natural reaction to adversity

*reject the personality disorder label

*do not fully agree with the label but accept it being as a way to access support.”