I think DD(18) might have EUPD (BPD). How do I help her?

[copingwitheupd]

Dd has always been very emotional, and can turn from lovely to violently angry in a second. One minute she is friendly and the next she is horribly abusive. She lies about everything and shows no remorse for how she behaves. She is very sensitive and we have to make huge allowances for her in normal everyday things. She uses screens as a way of hiding from the world, and from things she has to do and is a massive procrastinator. She is very academic, and comes across as shy and sweet in public and no one can believe she treats us the way she does. It was a real struggle to get her to school through the sixth form, and she lied a lot to her teachers about her work. She was diagnosed with a mild sleep disorder, and for a long time I thought she would be better if she just got a good night's sleep, but now I think it is worse than that.

I know she has self-harmed and had suicidal thoughts but she won't talk about why, and she refused to keep going to the counsellor we found for her. She did go to the Gp off her own bat, but they just recommended Steps to Well-being and she won't pursue that. She is extremely closed about her feelings, and refuses to talk about her outbursts except to blame everybody else. I think she has soured every family holiday we have ever had.

Lockdown was not going too badly but a couple of weeks ago she flipped for no reason we could see and started attacking her brothers physically, throwing things and breaking plates. She is refusing to have anything to do them or even to eat with us as a family, although she will act fairly normally when they are not around. I thought she had calmed down but then yesterday she tipped a plate of food over her brother just for walking into the kitchen where she was to get a snack. She says she wants them to die, and threatens to hurt them. I feel sick at the thought of the damage growing up with her has done to them, and sick at the thought that she might hurt herself because I love her so much.

Over the years I have googled everything from anxiety to autism to sociopathy but nothing quite fit. Now I'm pretty sure she has EUPD as she fits about 90% of the criteria but I have no idea how to get her help because she won't even entertain the idea of talking to a doctor or counsellor. DH wants to set down some clear boundaries (if she doesn't sit down with to eat she'll have to cook her own food, if she is violent again she will have to leave the house) but I think tough love has never worked with her before so it won't work now. I'm also really hesitant to suggest she has EUPD because I think she will twist that and turn what we say against us.

We are basically looking forward to her going to university in the autumn so we can live a life not tiptoeing on eggshells. It feels horrible to say it but I cannot wait for her to leave. And then I worry that she will crash and burn at university and hurt herself or worse. Or that she will have to come home and I'm not sure I can cope any more with her living in the house permanently (I can just about cope with holidays, I think.)

Does anyone have any recommendations of books to read about how to help her, and manage our family life? Or websites? If you have EUPD did you accept a diagnosis or were you in denial for a long time? What is the best way to stop her being so horrible to us whilst loving her and looking after her?

Tl;dr: I'd love any advice from anyone with experience for DD who I'm pretty sure has EUPD.

I agree with the PP- this sounds much more like a sensory/stimulation regulation issue than BPD.

If you can try and watch the recent series on yp health I'm pretty sure it was on channel 4... there was a young girl I think around 7 who was diagnosed with autism after some time. She would shake with anxiety and say she wanted to kill herself because she was so overwhelmed, even without attending school or leaving the house. outside the home she was also exceptionally well behaved.

We were is a very similar position with our daughter OP. We paid for a private psych assessment which diagnosed quite severe anxiety...but what I really wanted to add was that she went touniversity at a point when we were just so utterly sick of her tirades and rages....she did not like living away and has transferred to do second year at the local uni but she has matured and is starting to really appreciate us more.

It is far harder to get a diagnosis as kids grow, and now she is 18 and it would need to be her decision.

Kids with emotional problems seem to lock themselves away from dealing with situations properly, and therefore they avoid opportunities to learn and mature, and therefore can develop more slowly, but they do grow.

I would say you are right to resist punishment. It is hard and I have been accused of mollycoddling my daughter so many times. But her self esteem is not robust and she needs my love. Finally we are seeing a happier young woman emerge.

It's indescribably hard to parent a really distressed teen. Sending support. Try not to blame yourself or your daughter and remember, she does not know how to show it, but growing up is scaring her to death :(

My DD has a provisional diagnosis of BPD (EUPD) - she is 17.

I firmly believe her father has NPD and there is Bi-Polar in his family too and I feel that the genetic component combined with his NPD parenting (or lack of ) has contributed.

DD has been under psychiatric care for about 3 years and we've had drug abuse (12 week rehab sorted that), psych ward stays, self-harm and suicide attempts. She punched a hole in her bedroom wall a couple of months ago over an online drama.

It's not been an easy ride at all. I try to remember that this isn't her fault and that she's really hurting. The strength of emotions she feels is utterly over-whelming.

DD has stablised massively with a relatively strong dose of slow-release Seroquel and Lovan. She also has DBT training with a psychologist, so we're taking a two-pronged approach with medication and psychological training to help her manage her emotions.

I have a team around her to support her - I work closely with the school, her GP, her psychiatrist and her psychologist.

For her father and her I use the grey rock technique - so I keep emotion out of the home and don't react emotionally to anything, to prevent any emotions becoming heightened.

Our neighbours must think we are awful - DP is next to useless and often triggers her, which results in yelling and screaming. The police have been called several times and none of our neighbours talk to us. Similarly none of the parents from DD's previous 3 schools (yes, she got expelled).

In terms of my understanding when DD was first diagnosed, I thought that there would be a fix. There isn't. Medication and DBT helps, but it doesn't fix it. We have to up her meds every 6 months or so as the efficacy wears off - and that usually means trouble.

However, everybody has told me that things get immeasurably better after the age of 25.

My advice to you would be to get yourself psychological support. My GP referred me to my own psychologist to allow me to help set the boundaries that you are currently trying to set. Unfortunately we went into lockdown a few days later so I haven't been able to see her yet, so can't give advice on the boundary setting. A psychologist may also help you help her by giving you advice on how to get her to see a GP and get a psych referral.

I find that with empathy and calmness in the house (thanks DP ) and the medication, we are coping. We cope better when she doesn't surround herself with other BPD people, as, as you can imagine, that's an emotional nightmare.

Happy to help more - I'm about 3 years into this journey.

The example you just gave which escalated from crying to hitting you.

"Conversation" is probably deeply invalidating to her. For example, she may perceive it as a verbal game designed to make her stop expressing her feelings.

A hug might be a lot more useful.

When she says awful things, don't react and don't agree. Affirm the feelings behind the horrid things she does and says. Fear. Rage. Abandonment. Powerlessness.

Op there needs to be a boundary she cannot cross. She will push you too far and your DSs will suffer.
She seeks help or she goes to a hostel. I'm with your DH.

This is an upcoming course by an expert in this area - you might find some insights in the course description useful (it’s a professional course and the focus is not directly relevant to your situation - but some of the themes that experts in this area might guide or add to your thinking of how best to support your DD):

Parenting and Personality Dysfunction: clinical implications

Dr Gwen Adshead

The ‘orchid-dandelion’ hypothesis of child development (Ellis, 2008) suggests that there are some ‘environments’ that can damage even the most resilient children. Parental harshness, chronic hostility and a rejecting stance might form part of such hazardous environments – the incidence of which may be more common in parents with personality disorders. Evidence shows that such ‘maladaptive parental behaviour’ is not just associated with high rates of child and adolescent psychopathology; but also with higher manifestations of conduct and / or oppositional defiant disorders in children.

As therapists, we also realise that parental personality dysfunctions can have attachment implications. Frightened or frightening parenting behaviours lead to disorganised attachment in children, which in turn is symptomatic of a range of abnormal childhood behaviours. Our challenge in working with such parents and families however, is that abusive parents with personality disorders are often hard to engage. They may feel defensive and reluctant to building a trusting relationship over time with therapists.

At this practical and therapeutically oriented seminar which would be especially relevant for psychotherapists, psychologists, counsellors and psychiatrists, Dr Adshead draws on her extensive clinical experience, recent neurobiological findings and relational thought to help us comprehend:
How personality disorders (across the three DSM-5 clusters) affect the interpersonal function and can be viewed as relational disorders
Core parenting skills that create attuned sensitivity (and hence, secure attachment patterns) and how these can be negatively impacted through personality dysfunctions
The links between personality disorders and high-risk states of mind
The evidence that shows the risk to child development, both in terms of genetic vulnerability and environmental stress factors
Clinical interventions for parents with personality disorders
Maintaining the view that therapeutic interventions for parents with personality disorders are both effective and preventive, Dr Adshead explains how therapists can apply these learnings in clinical settings and allow for provision of relational security at multiple levels.

About the speaker

Dr Gwen Adshead is a psychotherapist, group analyst and forensic psychiatrist. She trained as a psychiatrist, and then as a forensic psychiatrist after completing a master’s Degree in medical law and ethics at King’s College, London. She was lecturer in victimology at the Institute of Psychiatry, where she studied interpersonal trauma and its effects; then trained as a psychotherapist, with a particular interest in Attachment Theory. She first started work at Broadmoor Hospital as a senior psychiatric trainee in 1990; and over the last twenty years has worked as a responsible clinician, as well as a consultant psychotherapist.

Her research interests include moral reasoning in psychopaths and antisocial men; the attachment narratives of abusive mothers; and how psychotherapies work with violent people. Gwen has published over 100 papers, book chapters and commissioned papers; co-edited three books and is working on three more.

Gwen’s principal training is group dynamic; but she also has experience of cognitive approaches to therapy, DBT, and mentalization based therapies

Thanks, Gutterton - I'll look into that.

ThatLockdownLyfe

"Conversation" is probably deeply invalidating to her. For example, she may perceive it as a verbal game designed to make her stop expressing her feelings.
*
A hug might be a lot more useful.

When she says awful things, don't react and don't agree. Affirm the feelings behind the horrid things she does and says. Fear. Rage. Abandonment. Powerlessness.*

Your words are really resonating with me. DH and one of the DSs are very even-tempered people, and DH thinks I am not particularly emotional compared to lots of women, although I certainly feel pretty emotional at the moment. We tend to approach issues from a very rational point of view, wanting to talk about it at best, and wanting to convince and win the argument at worst. From what you have said, I can see how this approach is probably the worst possible one for her, and has probably contributed to her issues. She has always been so sensitive physically and emotionally, and everyone else in the family is better at riding life's waves so we find it hard to empathise. In retrospect I think I have based my parenting style on how to parent NT boys, and it obviously hasn't worked for her.

Do you know of anything we could read to better understand how to communicate well with her? We're realising that change could take a long time, and we really need to work out how to set boundaries to protect everyone, but I think we need to think of her not as an ill or bad person but as a vulnerable person with special needs, maybe along the lines Gutterton followed with her DD. Any recommendations gratefully received!

pinotgrigio thank you so much for sharing your story. It sounds truly awful, and worse than anything we have seen from DD so far. I feel fortunate that DH is extremely supportive of me, even if DD's behaviour is utterly baffling to him. I can't think how hard it must to be do this with someone who makes things worse and not better. It's helpful to know that calmness and empathy help. I think you are right about a psychologist, even if just for me. I'm wondering whether to suggest DBT to her as a way of learning to manage her emotions, without mentioning any potential diagnosis, and suggesting a few psychologists she could go to for her to choose from, in her own time.

I am really excited for you and your family coping - I really hope this approach works for you. It can work quickly, but maybe the difficult part in which you all need strength to hold your own emotions is the transition period - just giving a bit of temporary slack, whilst proactively building in the new behaviours. This where YOU and your DH and your other DCs need some extra comfort.

Since my DD had her emotional resilience reprogrammed she has coped really well in time with most “normal” environments and can adapt herself if needed. She has “loved” lockdown - was visibly excited and energised within days.....when she got out to see friends again she was exhausted the next day - but can she chose to stay home then to settle.

This book really helped me. It’s about meeting each child where they are specifically and uniquely emotionally. The phrase that stuck out for me is that we are parents first and foremost to help out DC traverse their own emotional terrain and make sense of who they are. One quote that stuck with me was children need to be “felt with, not dealt with” - this is where I had gone wrong - went at family life and parenting like a busy efficient scout camp intent on giving them lots of experiences etc. Worked well for my older dandelion boys (caveat: let’s ask their partners in years to come...) - for my sensory sensitive “orchid” baby girl - not so good.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/574de956-3fa0-11e9-9bee-efab61506f44

I suggest you read Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder By Shari Y Manning.
I got this book for my fiancé to read, I feel it gives a great insight into the mind of someone with BPD.
I am 44 and have suffered with Borderline Personality Disorder since my teens. I have seen many different counsellors, psychiatrists and psychologists over the years but only got diagnosed a year ago.
It has pretty much ruined nearly every aspect of my life so please try and get a diagnoses soon if you can persuade her to see someone.

@copingwitheupd I would say definitely. DD's psychiatrist definitely recommends DBT for EUPD and my GP was very keen to get me to see a psychologist to help, as living with somebody with EUPD is very difficult and boundaries do need to be set. I've found boundary setting very difficult as I'm scared she'll attempt suicide again.

She really needs to see a psychiatrist who can prescribe medication to help stabilise her mood - it took us about 18 months to get the right ones and as I said, it still needs tweaking every 6 months as she adjusts. This will help her while she does DBT - DBT in itself isn't a quick fix.

One of the problems with EUPD is forming and maintaining relationships and so without support your daughter may really struggle with the social side of things at Uni.

Please don’t mention any speculative diagnosis to your DD OP. It could be deeply shaming and damaging - not least because only a psychiatrist is qualified to do this. But 100% encourage her to take up support to her soothe the peaks and troughs of her mood.

@gutterton I totally agree. We were wrong about my daughter. 100% convinced we had sussed it out but qualified psychiatrists knew what they were looking for and they were right to discount our armchair diagnosis!! We see that now, years later. We wanted a label so desperately, so we could understand her unhappiness. But the wrong label is worse than useless

OP a GP recommended a private assessment centre. It was about a grand :( poor CAHMS is so overwhelmed though, it was our only option

You say she is physically sensitive? Can you expand more on this? Sensory issues are a key marker of autism, particularly in women.

I used to find living in the family home of 4 people completely overwhelming. I could constantly hear whatever all 3 others were doing all the time, I used to freak out because I had no control over what others do and when (huge need for predictability). Something as simple as someone knocking on my bedroom door would have me tied in knots for hours. Not being able to chose when I ate, showered etc with complete exclusivity drives me mad!

As a teen I expressed this with rage and as an adult (lived at home for uni), I expressed more with withdrawal. I behaved impeccably outside the home but this took so much effort, I would be exhausted by the time I got home and as it was my home environment, my safe space, I needed to stop regulating my behaviour and would sometimes just lose control through utter exhaustion. This is exacerbated when your home space is stressful also, it’s an absolute headfuck.

I moved out at 24, the same year I was diagnosed with autism and could not believe the peace that I found in my mind from just living alone. I stopped having 3 other people to listen too (exhausting, even just ordinary household noise), I got to decide where all my possessions would be located, no one would move them whilst I was out (huge source of anxiety for me), I got complete control of my own schedule and I also did not have to deal with what kind of mood 3 other people were in (found this particularly hard as I can’t read body language).

I all of a sudden had so much peace and space in my mind. I have been incredibly emotionally measured ever since- I have a home to go to which is my sanctuary and when I’m done dealing with other people, I can retreat there. I visit my family every week and get on with them so much better as it is on my terms and I can retreat when I need to.

Read up specifically on how autism presents in women, it’s very different to how you would think and many girls are misdiagnosed with BPD or Bi Polar as a result.

She is very sensitive to noise - even to the point of screaming at DH and DS for breathing too noisily. When she was younger certain clothes or shoes would make her feel uncomfortable, lots of things like that. She has a low pain threshold.

There is autism in the family and I have looked many times at the girls and autism criteria. There are lots that fit but also lots that don't. She has a number of friends and her friendships seem to be fairly stable. She did struggle with making friends when she was younger but a lot of that was anxiety in social situations. Her thinking is very black and white in a negative way, but she is also very good at manipulating people. Her best subject is English, and she gets amazing marks for her insight into the text.

I will keep looking into all this, and I'm very grateful for all your help. I think I pursue suggesting DBT to her without any pressure or hint at a diagnosis.

user my DD is similar to you. She would would come home from school and wrap herself tightly in a blanket on her bed (on a good day) - or all hell broke lose. Socially she just retreated at school and was unable to initiate contact - still don’t think she has sent a text to anyone asking to meet up - but now she responds and has a lovely little group of friends like her who look and act about 15 even though they are 18. To me she has all of the female ASD traits - but the CAMHs assessments didn’t show this at all. However we put in the lifestyle adaptations you would put in place for ASD (which are generally the same for what you would put in for many MH issues) anyway and this I believe has helped.

It was also important for us to cherish her as she was - I was always trying to engineer her social life as I assumed she was unhappy and lonely. Whereas the opposite was true - she is an introvert, gets socially exhausted and loves her own company and space.

Once I let go of what I thought would make her happy - she didn’t have to use all of her energy to keep resisting my efforts (good intentions but sooo wrong) - she then had time and space to reenergise and came out of her she in her own time and found her tribe.

I am so delighted for her and how she has blossomed very uniquely and carry deep regret and sorrow that we inadvertently made her childhood much harder than it needed to be.

I personally believe a lot of Neurodiverse women and girls have been mistakenly diagnosed with EUPD.

Autism looks different in females.

@copingwitheupd all sounds similar to my girl...however the psychiatrists looked really carefully at her thinking patterns and use of language / social explanations and said no to ASD. Her severe anxiety was causing her to avoid situations where she had to assess emotions. Turns out she does not have any autistic thinking patterns (not that that would have bothered us! But incorrect labels do not help parents) Anyway...my daughter isn't the issue here...mypoint is that actually, people arevery keen on autism as 'the answer', and even more in girls, as yes, they mask autistic behaviours...but not every distressed girl is autistic...for us, we really needed professional diagnosis to warn us we were barking up the wrong tree. Expensive, but it was useful. Also... OP... 18 was the HEIGHT of my girl's distress, aggression and rage. So I just want to offer hugs. It is so hard and upsetting. I totally disagree with previous posters who just repeatedly say 'set boundaries'. I am sure you have tried!! My youngest girl responded in a textbook fashion to boundaries. My eldest needed love and ridiculous amounts of compassion.

I DO agree with @Gutterton though that adaptions for autistic children actually just equal 'good parenting' for ANY hypersensitive child though!!

"A personality disorder is not something that can be diagnosed in one appointment or even two."

^ This ^

My daughter has a diagnosis of NPD, with traits of EUPD, bipolar2 and possible ADHD (they weren't 100% certain of this diagnosis, apparently). She was 19 when she was diagnosed (she's now 24) - but that only came about because of her behaviour, which I've spoken about in my posts here, before. It took maybe 6 months of her seeing a psychologist for a diagnosis - and she only ended up having a MH assessment because of her violence towards and lies concerning me/her (younger) brother. Essentially, the police pushed for her to be assessed.

My daughter lies, rewrites history, gaslights, believes herself better than everyone, has no actual friends (and never has), manipulates, and remains abusive. We suspect past sexual abuse at the hands of either her paternal grandfather or paternal uncle - she'll hint at it (even to the point of blaming me for not safeguarding her contact with them), then claim not to remember anything ever happening to her, so cannot categorically pinpoint where her illness began. Her last boyfriend literally ran away to the opposite end of the country to get away from her, having had to call the police because he was afraid of her - then refused to press charges against her, which I understand. Her life, as a young woman, is pretty lonely.

I recognised symptoms of bipolar in her from the time she was 9 or 10 years old (I'm bipolar, as is my father, as was his mother), and I repeatedly asked (begged, actually, towards the end) our GP for help - but nothing was done. I was told I was overreacting, due to my own MH illness. Not even the footprint left embedded into my thigh, in the form of a bruise, convinced the GP that my daughter needed help. She was 15 or 16, then. I knew that she was ill - but hadn't actually heard of EUPD back then, whilst narcissism? Was simply a word used to describe vain people...

Whilst my daughter's diagnosis did little to change her behaviours, it reassured me that she wasn't malicious - she was (is) ill. She literally can't help a lot of her behaviours, and has had therapy to help with coping mechanisms. She still lives at home (a condition for which is that she has to be medicated) despite some posters on here advising me to kick her out (when she had nowhere else to go). I do worry that when she moves out, however, she'll stop taking her medication - because she doesn't believe that she needs to be on anything, - and will hurt someone, who will press charges against her. But I also know that won't be my fault/responsibility. I've done everything I can to access help for her, and whilst she's under my roof, she's as stable as she's ever likely to be. Hormones do make her more verbally abusive, however, so once a month there is a barrage of accusations flung my way.

OP, if your sons are anything like mine is, be prepared for them to choose to have very little (if anything) to do with your daughter, as they age. My son is loathe to be in the same room as my daughter for very long, because of what she did to us - and can't even confront her about it, (a) for fear of setting her off, and (b) because he knows that she's literally written it out of her mind. He's angry with her - and I respect that, just as he respects my choice to understand that she is ill. That her fluctuations of moods are not her choice, but something that she cannot control at all.

I am, however, more than aware that when my daughter claims to be suicidal it's to either get her own way, or to manipulate others into staying a part of her life. Self-harming is also something that she's claimed to do - only to insist that she's never done "such things" to herself, when challenged about it (she also has no scarring indicative of having done so).

If your daughter is mentally unstable, OP, then you need to talk to your GP and push for a diagnosis. Doesn't matter if she's over 18, you can still talk to her GP about her - they just can't talk to you about her, if that makes sense? But please be aware that if she has a PD - it's not something that will make her life all sunshine and roses. It's not a diagnosis that any parent would willingly want their child burdoned by.

PM me if you like. And good luck.

OP I am autistic have several stable long term friendships but it took me a long time to find people that “get” me.

Take a look at the masking theory. This is the theory that girls with autism are able to watch others and mimic their social skills without truly understanding them. Therefore they outwardly present in social situations as neurotypical. However, it is hugely stressful, takes a lot of effort to “perform” and often can lead to explosive meltdowns or isolating shutdowns once back in a “safe” environment such as the home.

The sensory things you mention also scream autism. I also have the “breathing too loudly issue”. Imagine sitting next to someone at work who breathes noisily. Now imagine hearing that at the same volume as someone speaking in your ear at normal volume and being able to hear it from people sat meters away from you. It takes an extreme amount of control not to go crazy at these kinds of sounds. That’s what it’s like for me anyway- everyone else is able to filter this stuff out and I am constantly fighting my own mind not to go mad at it.

I would think it’s worth an assessment. They are very thorough, mine asked me to take a parent to talk through childhood experiences, there were many questions I had to provide written responses to in advance and we talked through everything in a 3 hour appointment. You have to score highly I believe in 4 out of the 5 areas.

So glad you seem open minded- your daughter must be so unhappy- I felt so alienated from my family because I was just so cross at all the things I couldn’t control all the time but life needs to get better for all of you.

I have EUPD.

She needs accountability. Do not let her get away with this behaviour. She may have a personality disorder but she is still capable of making rational decisions and knowing right from wrong.

She needs accountability now. Before she sets a pattern of behaviour going into her adult life.

She cannot use this as an excuse for awful behaviour.

Antidepressants, anti anxiety and anti psychotic medications are the usual treatments. I find antidepressants make my decision making skills worse so I avoid them.

Try and keep her away from drugs and alcohol.

All this is easier said than done I know. I think PP have suggested online resources and there are some good books out there too.

Try to set a routine and eat well and exercise, it actually does help despite sounding like a massive cliche.

I want to say that I really appreciate all your comments and stories, even the approaches that seem to come from opposite perspectives. Every comment is something for me mull over as I work out how to handle this. Whether she needs hugs or boundaries or both, or whether it is BPD or autism or anxiety, I need to have all these things in mind.

And thanks to those who have offered sympathy and hugs. I have a couple of good friends who know about this but most people in my life don't, and even the ones that do don't understand what it is like to live like this.

Thank for taking the time to write, contrary13. I'm really very sorry to hear about all you have been through with your DD. It does make me realise that I may need to think about traits of a PD rather than a full-blown PD as my DD does not sound as ill as yours is.

It is also helpful to realise that I don't need a clear diagnosis, as there are lots of parenting and communication techniques I can try which will be useful no matter what the exact problem is. Thank you to those who have pointed that out.

@ThatLockdownLyfe - I really resonated with your comment, and if you have material you can recommend that might help me see things in this way, I'd be very grateful if you would pass it on.

Again, I'm very grateful to you all for your posts. Thank you.

www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Wish-Your-Parents-Children/dp/0241250994?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Sorry realised that my earlier link was behind The F.T. pay wall.

This book really helps guide you through “attuned” parenting techniques. Attuned means meeting them where they currently are emotionally, encouraging them to name and express their feelings so that they are then emotionally literate and in control of what behaviour they then CHOOSE to take or not with that feeling.

Thanks, Gutterton, I had managed to work it out! I've heard good things about that book from other people too, so I'll try to get hold of it.